The Bible - Why Trust It

[Subduction Zone]

I guess I'm not one of those guys then. I like to think I can read English even the kind that was written a couple of hundred years ago. I think you are mistaking "understand" with "accept as truth", if that is the case, then sure, you have me spot on.

Since the theory of evolution has been shown to correct time after time why would you not accept it over a book of myths that has been refuted time after time? Your beliefs have been shown to be wrong. Worse yet your beliefs make your version of God an incompetent, lying, immoral thug. Even if he did exist how can you worship such a creature?

Christians that realize much of the Old Testament is not meant to be read literally do not have that problem, at least to the same degree that you have.

 

[nPeace]

"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

Faith regarding what, exactly? Something real, something with objective existence? Then just show it to us.

The only alternative is something imaginary, and that fits Paul's description exactly. While I can enjoy imaginary things well enough, it's good to keep their status in mind.
Parts have been verified. Parts are simply story. Parts remain in substantial doubt, and anything with a miracle in it is self-evidently a mis-report at best. Was there an historical Moses? Probably not. Was there an historical Jesus? Possibly. Possibly not.
There are no absolute truths, because our conclusions are shaped by empiricism and induction, hence can never be shown to be complete. But yes, I have sensory information about the world external to me, and evolution-formed instincts in reacting to it, and education, and experience; and in a wide variety of circumstances I can make verifiably accurate statements about reality. In other cases I can back statements about reality with evidence-based argument provided by others.

And you think you can too, or we wouldn't be on RF at all, let alone having an interesting conversation.

Sorry I didn't get back to this post earlier.
How do you take the verse in Hebrews 11:1?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Sadly, it's not. First off, evolution has NOTHING to do with how life originated. It's simply the process by which less complex lifeforms develop into more complex lifeforms over time.................
Why would you think that an HISTORICAL event that is mentioned in the bible getting verified by historians in any way shape or form suggests that the FANTASTICAL claims of walking on water and rising from the dead are accurate as well?

In Scripture I find that where 'human life is concerned' (Not lower forms of life) that there was No process by which less complex life form developed. God directly made man formed from the dust of the ground, then after God breathed the 'breath of life' into lifeless Adam then Adam came to be a living person as per Genesis 2:7.

Since historians find names and places mentioned in the Bible that shows real places and real people in harmony with Scripture, so along that line of thought, since what took place in the past is found in Scripture then we can expect the rest of Scripture to follow along that pattern. Past Bible history follows a time line and that time line continues down to our day or time frame.
The walking on water or controlling storms shows Jesus can regulate weather phenomenon for us.
The dead rising was a small sample or a coming attraction preview of what Jesus will be doing on a grand global scale during his coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth. This will take place because the ' root problem' so to speak, is that Jesus will destroy Satan as per Hebrews 2:14 B, then ' enemy death ' will be No more on Earth as per 1 Corinthians 15:26. To me, it is Not FANTASTICAL that the Bible's time line starts with paradisical Eden and ends with a paradisical Earth restored for righteous mankind.

 

[QuestioningMind]

In Scripture I find that where 'human life is concerned' (Not lower forms of life) that there was No process by which less complex life form developed. God directly made man formed from the dust of the ground, then after God breathed the 'breath of life' into lifeless Adam then Adam came to be a living person as per Genesis 2:7.

Since historians find names and places mentioned in the Bible that shows real places and real people in harmony with Scripture, so along that line of thought, since what took place in the past is found in Scripture then we can expect the rest of Scripture to follow along that pattern. Past Bible history follows a time line and that time line continues down to our day or time frame.
The walking on water or controlling storms shows Jesus can regulate weather phenomenon for us.
The dead rising was a small sample or a coming attraction preview of what Jesus will be doing on a grand global scale during his coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth. This will take place because the ' root problem' so to speak, is that Jesus will destroy Satan as per Hebrews 2:14 B, then ' enemy death ' will be No more on Earth as per 1 Corinthians 15:26. To me, it is Not FANTASTICAL that the Bible's time line starts with paradisical Eden and ends with a paradisical Earth restored for righteous mankind.

Regardless of what you 'find in scripture', the reality is that humans are animals, just like the 'lower life forms' and evolved in the exact same manner.

"Since historians find names and places mentioned in the Bible that shows real places and real people in harmony with Scripture, so along that line of thought, since what took place in the past is found in Scripture then we can expect the rest of Scripture to follow along that pattern."

By that logic ANY work of fiction that accurately cites real places and real people is all 100% true, and that simply isn't the case.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Regardless of what you 'find in scripture', the reality is that humans are animals, just like the 'lower life forms' and evolved in the exact same manner.
"Since historians find names and places mentioned in the Bible that shows real places and real people in harmony with Scripture, so along that line of thought, since what took place in the past is found in Scripture then we can expect the rest of Scripture to follow along that pattern."

I am wondering what animal can reflect the personality of Jesus as humans can apply his teachings.
Why didn't conscience evolve in the animal kingdom. Animals go by instinct rather than conscience.
Seems to me that while there are animals that 'eat their young' that is Not typical in humans.
If humans are animals, does eating one's young make it normal or natural or okay _______
Unlike animals, humans can be morally responsible for their actions.
Humans have the freedom to choose to act responsibly toward God.

 

[QuestioningMind]

I am wondering what animal can reflect the personality of Jesus as humans can apply his teachings.
Why didn't conscience evolve in the animal kingdom. Animals go by instinct rather than conscience.
Seems to me that while there are animals that 'eat their young' that is Not typical in humans.
If humans are animals, does eating one's young make it normal or natural or okay _______
Unlike animals, humans can be morally responsible for their actions.
Humans have the freedom to choose to act responsibly toward God.

How do you know that no other animals have developed a conscience? Certainly there are some animals that operate almost purely on instinct, but I see no reason to believe that many other animals, such a dolphins and higher primates don't posses a conscience. In fact, I've owned dogs that absolutely KNOW when they've done wrong and act accordingly.

And yes, there ARE animal species that have been known to eat their young. But there are even more animal species in which they NEVER eat their young. The fact that humans fall into the latter category doesn't make them any less a member of the animal kingdom.

 

[Milton Platt]

Part 1 - Historically Accurate

ARGUMENT FROM SILENCE
Skeptics have attacked the Biblical record using the argument from silence. The fact that for many Biblical characters, there is no mention of them outside of the Biblical record in the findings of archeology or ancient inscriptions or manuscripts, calls their historicity into question.

The argument goes that if such people really lived, one would expect to find some trace of them outside of sacred writings.

Archaeology Confirms 50 Real People in the Bible


Add one more to the list.
Tattenai, also called Sisinnes, (flourished c. 6th–5th century BCE), Persian governor of the province west of the Euphrates River (eber nāri, “beyond the river”) during the reign of Darius I (522–486 BCE).
According to the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) Book of Ezra, Tattenai led an investigation into the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem about 519 BCE. He sent a report to Darius, who responded with instructions to allow the work to proceed. Tattenai is one of the few Persian officials mentioned in the Hebrew Bible for whom there is independent attestation; he is mentioned in a cuneiform tablet dated 502 BCE.

Tattenai
Tattenai (or Tatnai or Sisinnes) was a Biblical character and a Persian governor of the province west of the Euphrates River during the time of Zerubbabel and the reign of Darius I.

He is best known for questioning King Darius in regard to the rebuilding of a temple for the Lord, God of Israel. He was generally friendly to the Jews.The rebuilding was being led by Jeshua, son of Jozadak, and Zerubbabel, son of Shealtiel, and had been issued by King Cyrus I. Tattenai wrote a letter to King Darius to ask of these statements were true, and then King Darius wrote a letter confirming that the statements were true. In the letter, Darius asked that the people do everything they can to support this rebuilding financially, and that they do nothing to impede it lest they suffer harsh punishment.

Babylonian Cuneiform inscriptions
A number of cuneiform tablets bearing the name Tattenai have survived as part of what may have been a family archive. The tablet that links one member of this family to the Bible character is a promissory note dated to the 20th year of Darius I, 502 BC. It identifies a witness to the transaction as a servant of “Tattannu, governor of Across-the-River”. The clay tablet can be dated to June 5, 502 B.C. exactly.

Name
The Name Tattenai (ושתני), probably derived from the Persian name Ustanu, a word found in Zoroastrian scriptures to mean "teaching" though to the Hebrews it was indistinguishable from an expression of the verb נתן natan, meaning "to give". In 1 Esdras he is called Sisinnes.

Biblical texts
Ezra 1:1-4; 4:4-16; 5:3-7.

Tattenai meaning

Argument from silence DEBUNKED
CONFIRMED : The Bible - Historically Accurate

Non of this matters at all. The extra-biblical evidence that is lacking is of a God, Jesus and miracles. Spiderman comic books mention New York...does Spiderman therefore exist? Harry Potter novels mention real places in Great Britain. Does Harry Potter and Hogwart exist?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

How do you know that no other animals have developed a conscience? Certainly there are some animals that operate almost purely on instinct, but I see no reason to believe that many other animals, such a dolphins and higher primates don't posses a conscience. In fact, I've owned dogs that absolutely KNOW when they've done wrong and act accordingly.
And yes, there ARE animal species that have been known to eat their young. But there are even more animal species in which they NEVER eat their young. The fact that humans fall into the latter category doesn't make them any less a member of the animal kingdom.

Developed a conscience as in human conscience. I know of No animal that prays or worships.
Throughout mankind's history the fact that there is worship / religion shows a spiritual need in humans.
What animal says ' grace ' thanking God for its food, etc.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Non of this matters at all. The extra-biblical evidence that is lacking is of a God, Jesus and miracles. Spiderman comic books mention New York...does Spiderman therefore exist? Harry Potter novels mention real places in Great Britain. Does harry Potter and Hogwart exist?

First-century people believed Jesus existed. I know of No one who believes Spiderman or Harry Potter exists.

 

[Milton Platt]

First-century people believed Jesus existed. I know of No one who believes Spiderman or Harry Potter exists.

Not the point at all. You suggested that because there were real people in the bible, the rest of the bible must be true. I was just following your own lead. Not all first century people believed Jesus existed, in fact they were most certainly in the minority.

 

[Subduction Zone]

First-century people believed Jesus existed. I know of No one who believes Spiderman or Harry Potter exists.

So people.are not quite as ignorant now. Though that may be debatable.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Not the point at all. You suggested that because there were real people in the bible, the rest of the bible must be true. I was just following your own lead. Not all first century people believed Jesus existed, in fact they were most certainly in the minority.

I am wondering how you concluded that most certainly 'in the minority' 1st-century people believed Jesus did exist.

Real people, real places and real time frames follow though in biblical pattern.
Just as real people are taking the message of Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8 to real places all over the Earth today just as recorded in Scripture that it would be done.

 

[Milton Platt]

I am wondering how you concluded that most certainly 'in the minority' 1st-century people believed Jesus did exist.

Real people, real places and real time frames follow though in biblical pattern.
Just as real people are taking the message of Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8 to real places all over the Earth today just as recorded in Scripture that it would be done.

Given the size of the earth and the multiple continents and islands, it is a given. Only the people in the middle east would have heard of him.

Yes, the Bible mentions real people and places as does modern fictiion. That is not the question to be answered. You need to provide adequate evidence that miracles happened, that there is a god, and that Jesus was the son of a god and rose from the dead.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Given the size of the earth and the multiple continents and islands, it is a given. Only the people in the middle east would have heard of him.
Yes, the Bible mentions real people and places as does modern fictiion. That is not the question to be answered. You need to provide adequate evidence that miracles happened, that there is a god, and that Jesus was the son of a god and rose from the dead.

Of course, since Jesus was only sent to the Jewish nation ( Not the other nations ) then it is a given most people on Earth did Not have the opportunity to hear or learn about Jesus. So, I can agree that ' mostly ' or the majority of people in the Middle East would have heard of Jesus.
Also, think about this: Everyone who died before Jesus did Not hear about Jesus.
I find Jesus gave the biblical commission to go to multiple continents and islands, etc. to his followers.
That is easy to discern by reading Acts of the Apostles 1:8 and Matthew 24:14; 28:18-20.
To me, the fact that what Jesus said would happen did happen, so will happen.
Jesus instructed his followers to get out of un-faithful Jerusalem and they left in the year 66. - Luke 19:43-44
In the year 70 the Roman armies returned and destroyed un-faithful Jerusalem. Jesus followers were thus spared.

Over the many centuries the Bible has many enemies.
People even within the ' church ' tried to hid the Bible and keep it out of people's hands.
People outside have banned and burned Bibles but No one can get rid of the Bible although written on perishable paper. So, without divine protection there is No way the Bible, and Bible people, would still be around today.
The international proclaiming about God's kingdom of Daniel 2:44 is at it's ' final phase ', so to speak.
What is left is the ' final signal ' of 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 when ' they ' (powers that be) will be saying, "Peace and Security..." as the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14 before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill. Mankind's history has shown beyond doubt that man can Not establish peace on earth, so that is why God will have Jesus step in for us.

 

[Milton Platt]

Of course, since Jesus was only sent to the Jewish nation ( Not the other nations ) then it is a given most people on Earth did Not have the opportunity to hear or learn about Jesus. So, I can agree that ' mostly ' or the majority of people in the Middle East would have heard of Jesus.
Also, think about this: Everyone who died before Jesus did Not hear about Jesus.
I find Jesus gave the biblical commission to go to multiple continents and islands, etc. to his followers.
That is easy to discern by reading Acts of the Apostles 1:8 and Matthew 24:14; 28:18-20.
To me, the fact that what Jesus said would happen did happen, so will happen.
Jesus instructed his followers to get out of un-faithful Jerusalem and they left in the year 66. - Luke 19:43-44
In the year 70 the Roman armies returned and destroyed un-faithful Jerusalem. Jesus followers were thus spared.

Over the many centuries the Bible has many enemies.
People even within the ' church ' tried to hid the Bible and keep it out of people's hands.
People outside have banned and burned Bibles but No one can get rid of the Bible although written on perishable paper. So, without divine protection there is No way the Bible, and Bible people, would still be around today.
The international proclaiming about God's kingdom of Daniel 2:44 is at it's ' final phase ', so to speak.
What is left is the ' final signal ' of 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 when ' they ' (powers that be) will be saying, "Peace and Security..." as the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14 before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill. Mankind's history has shown beyond doubt that man can Not establish peace on earth, so that is why God will have Jesus step in for us.

the stories in the Bible are a few of many that a group of men decided for their own purposes to gather under one cover. People banned and burned "Lady Chatterley's Lover" and yet it is still with us today....it must be a sacred text, right?

 

[Into the Night]

Since the theory of evolution has been shown to correct time after time

How has it been shown? Supporting evidence proves nothing.

why would you not accept it over a book of myths that has been refuted time after time?

Don't think so. A lot of people still believe the Bible to be a worthwhile book.

Your beliefs have been shown to be wrong. Worse yet your beliefs make your version of God an incompetent, lying, immoral thug. Even if he did exist how can you worship such a creature?

You really seem to hate God. Why?

Christians that realize much of the Old Testament is not meant to be read literally do not have that problem, at least to the same degree that you have.

It sound like to me you are changing and adding scripture by the way you are interpreting it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

How has it been shown? Supporting evidence proves nothing.

Don't think so. A lot of people still believe the Bible to be a worthwhile book.

You really seem to hate God. Why?

It sound like to me you are changing and adding scripture by the way you are interpreting it.

I see that you still have no clue on how science is done. I can help you with your lack of understanding.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Developed a conscience as in human conscience. I know of No animal that prays or worships.
Throughout mankind's history the fact that there is worship / religion shows a spiritual need in humans.
What animal says ' grace ' thanking God for its food, etc.

Would you actually expect that a dolphin would have a 'human conscience'? I'd expect it to have a dolphin conscience. And since you have no idea what goes on inside of the mind of a dolphin, how do you know that dolphins don't do something similar to praying? How do you know that they aren't grateful for every single fish they eat? You presume to know a whole lot about what goes on in the minds of other animal species.

 

[nPeace]

Part 2 - The Bible is - Harmonious
This is exactly what we would expect from a book that is divinely inspired.
[GALLERY=media, 8584]Writers by nPeace posted Jul 20, 2018 at 6:00 AM[/GALLERY]
Although written by about forty different men, of various backgrounds, over a period of 1600 years, there is one harmonious thread running through the Bible from beginning to end.

How is it possible for this, if the Bible did not have one author, and how is it possible for the author to be mortal?

Clearly, the author of the Bible must be divine - as stated in the Bible at 2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,

(Genesis 49:10; Exodus 19:6; Isaiah 9:6, 7; Daniel 2:44; 7:13, 14; Matthew 19:28; Luke 1:26-33; 12:32; 22:28-30; Revelation 3:21; 5:9, 10; 20:6; 22:5)

 

[Subduction Zone]

Part 2 - The Bible is - Harmonious
This is exactly what we would expect from a book that is divinely inspired.
[GALLERY=media, 8584]Writers by nPeace posted Jul 20, 2018 at 6:00 AM[/GALLERY]
Although written by about forty different men, of various backgrounds, over a period of 1600 years, there is one harmonious thread running through the Bible from beginning to end.

How is it possible for this, if the Bible did not have one author, and how is it possible for the author to be mortal?

Clearly, the author of the Bible must be divine - as stated in the Bible at 2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,

(Genesis 49:10; Exodus 19:6; Isaiah 9:6, 7; Daniel 2:44; 7:13, 14; Matthew 19:28; Luke 1:26-33; 12:32; 22:28-30; Revelation 3:21; 5:9, 10; 20:6; 22:5)

the only "harmony" is usually due to reinterpretation after the fact, or in the case of the Gospels, sloppy writing to make it look as if prophecies were fulfilled.