nPeace
Veteran Member
Sweet dreaming, and same to you.
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The Bible - Why Trust It
- Thread starter nPeace
- Start date
nPeace
Veteran Member
The writer of Genesis claims to be giving a historical account.
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Genesis 2:4 This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.
Genesis 5:1 This is the book of Adam’s history. In the day that God created Adam, he made him in the likeness of God.
Genesis 6:1, 9 Now when men started to grow in number on the surface of the ground and daughters were born to them,...
This is the history of Noah.
Noah was a righteous man. He proved himself faultless among his contemporaries. Noah walked with the true God.
Genesis 10:1, 32 This is the history of Noah’s sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
Sons were born to them after the Flood.
These were the families of the sons of Noah according to their family lines and by their nations. From these the nations were spread abroad in the earth after the Flood.
Genesis 11:10:26 This is the history of Shem.
Shem was 100 years old when he became father to Arpachshad two years after the Flood.
Genesis 25:19 And this is the history of Isaac the son of Abraham.
Abraham became father to Isaac.
Genesis 36:1 This is the history of Esau, that is, Edom.
Exodus 1:1 Now these are the names of Israel’s sons who came into Egypt with Jacob, each man who came with his household:
How does one respond to those claims? Does one think the writer is lying - Is he a liar? How does one explain these passages as allegory? Does one see all of this as a fairy tale story book?
How does one account for the fact that the entire Tanakh present the same characters and events in Genesis, as history of the beginning of man, and his dealings with God?
For example...
The book of Chronicles gives a genealogical history from Adam to Edom's (Esau) offspring. (1 Chronicles 1)
Many of them refer to the forefathers of the Jewish nation.
(Joshua 24:2) . . .your forefathers lived a long time ago - Teʹrah the father of Abraham and the father of Nahor - and they used to serve other gods.
(1 Kings 18:36) About the time when the evening grain offering is presented, Elijah the prophet stepped forward and said: “O Jehovah, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, today let it be known that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and that it is by your word that I have done all these things.
(1 Samuel 12:8) “As soon as Jacob had come into Egypt and your forefathers began calling to Jehovah for help, Jehovah sent Moses and Aaron to lead your forefathers out of Egypt and to cause them to dwell in this place.
(Nehemiah 9:7) You are Jehovah the true God, who chose Abram and brought him out of Ur of the Chaldeans and gave him the name Abraham.
Actually, the verses are too numerous for me to go through right now, but 99% of the Tanakh makes reference to Genesis as history.
(Psalm 105:4-11; Isaiah 29:22; Jeremiah 33:26; Ezekiel 33:24; Micah 7:20)
Then there are the Christian Greek scriptures, which do the same.
So, if Genesis is myth, or just allegory, would that not make any reference to it as history, a lie.
Stephen would actually be the biggest Christian liar in history, after given his speech, which was recorded by Luke, at Acts 7. See this post, and the one directly below it.
Or maybe we would have to give Jesus first spot, since he claimed to be the son of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. ...and the Gospel writers, they would surely deserve to be targeted as liars, by the Atheists, and other skeptics, as they make claims such as...
The book of the history of Jesus Christ, son of David, son of Abraham: (Matthew 1:1)
The beginning of the good news about Jesus Christ, the Son of God: Just as it is written in Isaiah the prophet:. . . (Mark 1:1, 2)
Seeing that many have undertaken to compile an account of the facts that are given full credence among us, just as these were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and attendants of the message, I resolved also, because I have traced all things from the start with accuracy, to write them to you in logical order, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know fully the certainty of the things that you have been taught orally. (Luke 1:1-4)
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Genesis 2:4 This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.
Genesis 5:1 This is the book of Adam’s history. In the day that God created Adam, he made him in the likeness of God.
Genesis 6:1, 9 Now when men started to grow in number on the surface of the ground and daughters were born to them,...
This is the history of Noah.
Noah was a righteous man. He proved himself faultless among his contemporaries. Noah walked with the true God.
Genesis 10:1, 32 This is the history of Noah’s sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
Sons were born to them after the Flood.
These were the families of the sons of Noah according to their family lines and by their nations. From these the nations were spread abroad in the earth after the Flood.
Genesis 11:10:26 This is the history of Shem.
Shem was 100 years old when he became father to Arpachshad two years after the Flood.
Genesis 25:19 And this is the history of Isaac the son of Abraham.
Abraham became father to Isaac.
Genesis 36:1 This is the history of Esau, that is, Edom.
Exodus 1:1 Now these are the names of Israel’s sons who came into Egypt with Jacob, each man who came with his household:
How does one respond to those claims? Does one think the writer is lying - Is he a liar? How does one explain these passages as allegory? Does one see all of this as a fairy tale story book?
How does one account for the fact that the entire Tanakh present the same characters and events in Genesis, as history of the beginning of man, and his dealings with God?
For example...
The book of Chronicles gives a genealogical history from Adam to Edom's (Esau) offspring. (1 Chronicles 1)
Many of them refer to the forefathers of the Jewish nation.
(Joshua 24:2) . . .your forefathers lived a long time ago - Teʹrah the father of Abraham and the father of Nahor - and they used to serve other gods.
(1 Kings 18:36) About the time when the evening grain offering is presented, Elijah the prophet stepped forward and said: “O Jehovah, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, today let it be known that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and that it is by your word that I have done all these things.
(1 Samuel 12:8) “As soon as Jacob had come into Egypt and your forefathers began calling to Jehovah for help, Jehovah sent Moses and Aaron to lead your forefathers out of Egypt and to cause them to dwell in this place.
(Nehemiah 9:7) You are Jehovah the true God, who chose Abram and brought him out of Ur of the Chaldeans and gave him the name Abraham.
Actually, the verses are too numerous for me to go through right now, but 99% of the Tanakh makes reference to Genesis as history.
(Psalm 105:4-11; Isaiah 29:22; Jeremiah 33:26; Ezekiel 33:24; Micah 7:20)
Then there are the Christian Greek scriptures, which do the same.
So, if Genesis is myth, or just allegory, would that not make any reference to it as history, a lie.
Stephen would actually be the biggest Christian liar in history, after given his speech, which was recorded by Luke, at Acts 7. See this post, and the one directly below it.
Or maybe we would have to give Jesus first spot, since he claimed to be the son of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. ...and the Gospel writers, they would surely deserve to be targeted as liars, by the Atheists, and other skeptics, as they make claims such as...
The book of the history of Jesus Christ, son of David, son of Abraham: (Matthew 1:1)
The beginning of the good news about Jesus Christ, the Son of God: Just as it is written in Isaiah the prophet:. . . (Mark 1:1, 2)
Seeing that many have undertaken to compile an account of the facts that are given full credence among us, just as these were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and attendants of the message, I resolved also, because I have traced all things from the start with accuracy, to write them to you in logical order, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know fully the certainty of the things that you have been taught orally. (Luke 1:1-4)
TheBannerofHomuraAkemi
Active Member
Let me take a look.
Spider-Man is a fictional superhero created by writer-editor Stan Lee...
In collaboration with others at Marvel - particularly co-writer/artists Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko - he co-created numerous popular fictional characters, including superheroes Spider-Man, the X-Men, Iron Man, Thor, the Hulk, Black Widow, the Fantastic Four, Black Panther, Daredevil, Doctor Strange, Scarlet Witch and Ant-Man.
Marvel Entertainment, LLC (formerly Marvel Enterprises and Toy Biz, Inc., and marketed and stylized as MARVEL) is an American entertainment company founded in June 1998 and based in New York City, formed by the merger of Marvel Entertainment Group, Inc. and ToyBiz. The company is a wholly owned subsidiary of The Walt Disney Company, and is mainly known for its comic books by Marvel Comics, as well as its forays into movies with the Marvel Cinematic Universe.
Nope.
Nice strawman though.
It seems like you didn't understand my allegory so I'll put it into words. Just because a piece of writing has real people or places doesn't validate the writing. You know that and apply it to spiderman comics yet you don't apply the same logic to the bible.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
It looks like you are abusing the word "history". That concept, at least as we know it today did not exist in roughly 500 BCE. Those are origin myths. They are common to all sorts of religions.
nPeace
Veteran Member
No, I totally understood your allegory, but apparently you don't understand how it's a strawman argument.
So I'll try to explain.
The comic books clearly reveal they are fiction. You don't have to go digging for that, in order to validate any claim.
The Bible however, does not present itself as fiction, so you need to validate its claim.
So throwing out a strawman, that there are some true facts in books of fiction, does not invalidate anything, because there are also true facts in book of facts.
Why ignore the latter, to proclaim the former? What does that do? It's a strawman - an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.
So rather than do that, why not show me that the arguments presented are not valid.
The history part is history - a done deal. We got most of it right. All haven't been confirmed, but that's only one of many proofs.
What about the others?
Why not demonstrate that you are really interested in determining if the arguments are valid, as opposed to creating strawman.
sooda
Veteran Member
Who do you think wrote Genesis? Moses had been dead for 800 years before it was written.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
You cannot claim that the history is confirmed when you ignore the history that is refuted. That is cherry picking. And are you serious? The Bible does not present itself as fiction? Adam and Eve, and Noah's Ark, you can't be serious. Also you may not like the analogy, but that is not a strawman. You need to look up the meaning of that term.
nPeace
Veteran Member
I'd be happy to accept that if you could provide evidence, or proof of that assertion.
sooda
Veteran Member
Genesis and Exodus were written after the Babylonian exile. There isn't a single Bible scholar who believes Moses wrote the pentateuch.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
If he ever existed, which is very doubtful. And if there was a real Moses you know that he would not be anything at all like the Biblical version.
sooda
Veteran Member
Correct.. Most scholars think the Exodus is a redemption myth.. Never happened. The Hebrews were Canaanites from the North coast of Syria.
nPeace
Veteran Member
Who wrote Genesis?
You have provided no evidence or proof... so you must not have any. The most you have are claims.
If you want me to provide you with the information refuting your claims, I would be more than delighted to put them together for you.
Are you aware of how confused scholars are, who support the DH. They can't even agree among themselves on the Jahwist (J), Elohist (E), Deuteronomist (D), and Priestly (P) sources.
That's how opinionated it is, not to mention biased.
Sad that you would accept their claims over the Bible writers.
These opinion are not accepted based on facts, but beliefs, based on interpretations, and there are indeed scholars who oppose the document hypothesis (DH), contrary to your claim.
You have provided no evidence or proof... so you must not have any. The most you have are claims.
If you want me to provide you with the information refuting your claims, I would be more than delighted to put them together for you.
Are you aware of how confused scholars are, who support the DH. They can't even agree among themselves on the Jahwist (J), Elohist (E), Deuteronomist (D), and Priestly (P) sources.
That's how opinionated it is, not to mention biased.
Sad that you would accept their claims over the Bible writers.
sooda
Veteran Member
As I said the OT was amended and redacted many times.. Israel and Judea were rivals and had conflicting myths and stories. They were cobbled together during the reign of King Omri 6th king of Israel.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Nice attempt to shift the burden of proof. When stories of the sort we find in the Bible are presented the name of supposed authors is never taken on just the sources say so, especially if it contradicts history. And the Exodus story does contradict history.
sooda
Veteran Member
Have you heard of the Ugaritic tablets? The Jews borrowed heavily from them to include Psalms. See Ras Shamra. The Hebrews were Canaanites.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
I have to leave shortly for an appointment, so I'll just briefly respond to your point below.
Secondly, the sequencing and details simply don't match what we now know about the evolution of our universe. Within both Judaism and Catholicism, we are encouraged to use reason, thus if an interpretation defies reason, then we are encouraged to look for other possible interpretations.
Thirdly, symbols used in both the Hebrew and Greek writings are typically dealt with as being real-- such is the nature of that style of Jewish writing. For example, was the "Parable of the Prodigal Son" a real event? It doesn't say one way or the other, but today I think most people regard it as a "myth", namely a story meant to teach but not to be taken as a literal historical event.
Finally, it is probable, imo, that the authors of other books of the Bible didn't necessarily know that the creation narratives were allegorical, thus treating these accounts as being real. Unless they actually knew the person(s) doing the writing of these accounts, they would not know whether the narratives were allegorical or real.
Yes, I do believe that the creation accounts (there are two of them [1.1 and 2.4] and they don't match on the sequencing) are likely allegorical, probably to counter the earlier and much more widespread Babylonian polytheistic creation narrative.
Secondly, the sequencing and details simply don't match what we now know about the evolution of our universe. Within both Judaism and Catholicism, we are encouraged to use reason, thus if an interpretation defies reason, then we are encouraged to look for other possible interpretations.
Thirdly, symbols used in both the Hebrew and Greek writings are typically dealt with as being real-- such is the nature of that style of Jewish writing. For example, was the "Parable of the Prodigal Son" a real event? It doesn't say one way or the other, but today I think most people regard it as a "myth", namely a story meant to teach but not to be taken as a literal historical event.
Finally, it is probable, imo, that the authors of other books of the Bible didn't necessarily know that the creation narratives were allegorical, thus treating these accounts as being real. Unless they actually knew the person(s) doing the writing of these accounts, they would not know whether the narratives were allegorical or real.
sooda
Veteran Member
Yep.Seems to me that they are all teaching narratives NOT history.
nPeace
Veteran Member
sooda
Veteran Member
No,, Serious Bible scholars are studying the Ugaritic texts to help them accurately translate from ancient Hebrew.. You seem to be 30 years behind the scholarship.
The Jews were never slaves in Egypt.. They emerged from among the Canaanite tribes of Northern Syria.