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The Bible - Why Trust It

sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
sooda said:
Well, I have read the Bible forwards and backwards and I don't recall any "writer" claiming Genesis is history.
Click to expand...
There are no such claims. The writing and editing all smack of mythic writing, not historical writing.
 
nPeace

nPeace

Veteran Member
@sooda in case you don't know, posters on RF are often busy with more threads than one. There are not sitting down twiddling their thumbs and waiting for soodas and @sojourner to post.
Sometimes we do move away from our computers, because we have something else to do. So I hope in the future, when you post, you will not assume the person should respond there and then, because they are sitting at their computer, as sooda may do (idk), with nothing to do, and nowhere to go, but on RF.

You asked, 'What writer claims its history?'
The answer - the writer of Genesis.
Where? Did both you and @sojourner read the scriptures in the post? I quoted the texts.
 
sooda

sooda

Veteran Member
nPeace said:
@sooda in case you don't know, posters on RF are often busy with more threads than one. There are not sitting down twiddling their thumbs and waiting for soodas and @sojourner to post.
Sometimes we do move away from our computers, because we have something else to do. So I hope in the future, when you post, you will not assume the person should respond there and then, because they are sitting at their computer, as sooda may do (idk), with nothing to do, and nowhere to go, but on RF.

You asked, 'What writer claims its history?'
The answer - the writer of Genesis.
Where? Did both you and @sojourner read the scriptures in the post? I quoted the texts.
Click to expand...

Show me where it says the writer of Genesis calls it history..
 
McBell

McBell

Unbound
nPeace said:
@metis correct me if I am not quoting you correctly, but I think you said you believe the Genesis account is allegorical.

The writer claims to be giving a historical account.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Genesis 2:4 This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.

Genesis 5:1 This is the book of Adam’s history. In the day that God created Adam, he made him in the likeness of God.

Genesis 6:1, 9 Now when men started to grow in number on the surface of the ground and daughters were born to them,...
This is the history of Noah.
Noah was a righteous man. He proved himself faultless among his contemporaries. Noah walked with the true God.

Genesis 10:1, 32 This is the history of Noah’s sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
Sons were born to them after the Flood.
These were the families of the sons of Noah according to their family lines and by their nations. From these the nations were spread abroad in the earth after the Flood.

Genesis 11:10:26 This is the history of Shem.
Shem was 100 years old when he became father to Arpachshad two years after the Flood.

Genesis 25:19 And this is the history of Isaac the son of Abraham.
Abraham became father to Isaac.

Genesis 36:1 This is the history of Esau, that is, Edom.

Exodus 1:1 Now these are the names of Israel’s sons who came into Egypt with Jacob, each man who came with his household:

How do you respond to those claims? Do you think the writer is lying - Is he a liar? How do you explain these passages as allegory? Do you see all of this as a fairy tale story book?
How do you account for the fact that the entire Tanakh present the same characters and events in Genesis, as history of the beginning of man, and his dealings with God?

For example...
The book of Chronicles gives a genealogical history from Adam to Edom's (Esau) offspring. (1 Chronicles 1)

Many of them refer to the forefathers of the Jewish nation.
(Joshua 24:2) . . .your forefathers lived a long time ago - Teʹrah the father of Abraham and the father of Nahor - and they used to serve other gods.

(1 Kings 18:36) About the time when the evening grain offering is presented, Elijah the prophet stepped forward and said: “O Jehovah, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, today let it be known that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and that it is by your word that I have done all these things.

(1 Samuel 12:8) “As soon as Jacob had come into Egypt and your forefathers began calling to Jehovah for help, Jehovah sent Moses and Aaron to lead your forefathers out of Egypt and to cause them to dwell in this place.

(Nehemiah 9:7) You are Jehovah the true God, who chose Abram and brought him out of Ur of the Chaldeans and gave him the name Abraham.

Actually, the verses are too numerous for me to go through right now, but 99% of the Tanakh makes reference to Genesis as history.
(Psalm 105:4-11; Isaiah 29:22; Jeremiah 33:26; Ezekiel 33:24; Micah 7:20)

Then there are the Christian Greek scriptures, which do the same.
So, if Genesis is myth, or just allegory, would that not make any reference to it as history, a lie.
Stephen would actually be the biggest Christian liar in history, after given his speech, which was recorded by Luke, at Acts 7. See this post, and the one directly below it.
Or maybe we would have to give Jesus first spot, since he claimed to be the son of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. ...and the Gospel writers, they would surely deserve to be targeted as liars, by the Atheists, and other skeptics, as they make claims such as...

The book of the history of Jesus Christ, son of David, son of Abraham: (Matthew 1:1)

The beginning of the good news about Jesus Christ, the Son of God: Just as it is written in Isaiah the prophet:. . . (Mark 1:1, 2)

Seeing that many have undertaken to compile an account of the facts that are given full credence among us, just as these were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and attendants of the message, I resolved also, because I have traced all things from the start with accuracy, to write them to you in logical order, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know fully the certainty of the things that you have been taught orally. (Luke 1:1-4)

Do you agree with these, or the Atheists?
Click to expand...
What version is that?
Cause it looks to me as though you changed the word "generations" to "history"

For example:
Genesis 5:1
(ASV) This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
(BBE) This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day when God made man, he made him in the image of God;
(Bishops) This is the booke of the generations of Ada. In the day that God created man, in the lykenesse of God made he hym.
(Brenton) This is the genealogy of men in the day in which God made Adam; in the image of God he made him:
(CEV) God created men and women to be like himself. He gave them his blessing and called them human beings. This is a list of the descendants of Adam, the first man:
(Darby) This is the book of Adam's generations. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him.
(DRB) This is the book of the generation of Adam. In the day that God created man, he made him to the likeness of God.
(ERV) This is the history of Adam's family. When God created people, he made them like himself.
(ESV) This is the book of the generations of Adam. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God.
(ESV+) This is the book of the generations of Adam. When God created man, R15he made him in the likeness of God.
(Geneva) This is the booke of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created Adam, in the likenes of God made he him,
(GNB) This is the list of the descendants of Adam. (When God created human beings, he made them like himself.
(GW) This is the written account of Adam and his descendants. When God created humans, he made them in the likeness of God.
(ISV) This is the historical record of Adam's generations. When God created mankind, he made them in his own likeness.
(JPS) This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made He him;
(JUB) This is the book of the descendants of Adam. In the day that God created man, he made him in the likeness of God;
(KJV) This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
(KJV+) ThisH2088 is the bookH5612 of the generationsH8435 of Adam.H121 In the dayH3117 that GodH430 createdH1254 man,H120 in the likenessH1823 of GodH430 madeH6213 he him;
(KJV-1611) This is the booke of the generations of Adam: In the day that God created man, in the likenes of God made he him.
(KJVA) This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
(KJV-BRG) This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
(LEB) This is the record of the generations of Adam. When God created Adam, he made him in the likeness of God.
(LITV) This is the book of the generations of Adam: In the day that God created man. He made him in the likeness of God.
(MKJV) This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, he made him in the likeness of God.
(RV) This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
(TLV) This is the Book of the Genealogies of Adam: When God created Adam, in the likeness of God He made him.
(TS2009) This is the book of the genealogy of Aḏam. In the day that Elohim created man, He made him in the likeness of Elohim.
(WEB) This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, he made him in God’s likeness.
(WEBA) This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, he made him in God’s likeness.
(Webster) This is the book of the generations of Adam: In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him:
(YLT) This is an account of the births of Adam: In the day of God's preparing man, in the likeness of God He hath made him;​
 
nPeace

nPeace

Veteran Member
Mestemia said:
What version is that?
Cause it looks to me as though you changed the word "generations" to "history"

For example:
Genesis 5:1
(ASV) This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
(BBE) This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day when God made man, he made him in the image of God;
(Bishops) This is the booke of the generations of Ada. In the day that God created man, in the lykenesse of God made he hym.
(Brenton) This is the genealogy of men in the day in which God made Adam; in the image of God he made him:
(CEV) God created men and women to be like himself. He gave them his blessing and called them human beings. This is a list of the descendants of Adam, the first man:
(Darby) This is the book of Adam's generations. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him.
(DRB) This is the book of the generation of Adam. In the day that God created man, he made him to the likeness of God.
(ERV) This is the history of Adam's family. When God created people, he made them like himself.
(ESV) This is the book of the generations of Adam. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God.
(ESV+) This is the book of the generations of Adam. When God created man, R15he made him in the likeness of God.
(Geneva) This is the booke of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created Adam, in the likenes of God made he him,
(GNB) This is the list of the descendants of Adam. (When God created human beings, he made them like himself.
(GW) This is the written account of Adam and his descendants. When God created humans, he made them in the likeness of God.
(ISV) This is the historical record of Adam's generations. When God created mankind, he made them in his own likeness.
(JPS) This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made He him;
(JUB) This is the book of the descendants of Adam. In the day that God created man, he made him in the likeness of God;
(KJV) This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
(KJV+) ThisH2088 is the bookH5612 of the generationsH8435 of Adam.H121 In the dayH3117 that GodH430 createdH1254 man,H120 in the likenessH1823 of GodH430 madeH6213 he him;
(KJV-1611) This is the booke of the generations of Adam: In the day that God created man, in the likenes of God made he him.
(KJVA) This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
(KJV-BRG) This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
(LEB) This is the record of the generations of Adam. When God created Adam, he made him in the likeness of God.
(LITV) This is the book of the generations of Adam: In the day that God created man. He made him in the likeness of God.
(MKJV) This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, he made him in the likeness of God.
(RV) This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
(TLV) This is the Book of the Genealogies of Adam: When God created Adam, in the likeness of God He made him.
(TS2009) This is the book of the genealogy of Aḏam. In the day that Elohim created man, He made him in the likeness of Elohim.
(WEB) This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, he made him in God’s likeness.
(WEBA) This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, he made him in God’s likeness.
(Webster) This is the book of the generations of Adam: In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him:
(YLT) This is an account of the births of Adam: In the day of God's preparing man, in the likeness of God He hath made him;​
Click to expand...
Okay. So explain please, what does, "these are the generations of" or "the book of the generations of" mean.
 
McBell

McBell

Unbound
nPeace said:
Okay. So explain please, what does, "these are the generations of" or "the book of the generations of" mean.
Click to expand...
Family tree.

I sincerely hope that you are not going to claim that revealing who begot who is a claim that the whole book is history.

And you did not reveal what version you referenced from...
Is that because you did as I suspect and merely change the word "generation" to "history"?
 
nPeace

nPeace

Veteran Member
Mestemia said:
Family tree.

I sincerely hope that you are not going to claim that revealing who begot who is a claim that the whole book is history.
Click to expand...
Family tree.
Okay, the family tree of the names called. Correct?
...and Genesis 2:4? What does that mean?
Also, what does, "this is an account of" mean?
 
McBell

McBell

Unbound
nPeace said:
Family tree.
Okay, the family tree of the names called. Correct?
...and Genesis 2:4? What does that mean?
Also, what does, "this is an account of" mean?
Click to expand...
Why did you change what the verse actually says to what you wanted the verse to say?
 
McBell

McBell

Unbound
nPeace said:
You are not answering the questions. Why?
Click to expand...
You have not answered more of my questions than I have not answered of yours.
Why?

You got caught being dishonest with Bible verses.
I know why you changed the verses.
They did not say what you wanted.
Meaning YOU DO NOT TRUST THE BIBLE!

Cause if you did, in fact, trust the Bible, you would not have felt the need to change it.

So much for your credibility.
 
nPeace

nPeace

Veteran Member
Mestemia said:
You have not answered more of my questions than I have not answered of yours.
Why?

You got caught being dishonest with Bible verses.
I know why you changed the verses.
They did not say what you wanted.
Meaning YOU DO NOT TRUST THE BIBLE!

Cause if you did, in fact, trust the Bible, you would not have felt the need to change it.

So much for your credibility.
Click to expand...
I'll help you, since you know who really is being dishonest.

New International Version
This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.

New Living Translation
This is the account of the creation of the heavens and the earth. When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

English Standard Version
These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.

Berean Study Bible
This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made them.

New American Standard Bible
This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.

New King James Version
This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

King James Bible
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Christian Standard Bible
These are the records of the heavens and the earth, concerning their creation. At the time that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Contemporary English Version
That's how God created the heavens and the earth. When the LORD God made the heavens and the earth,

Good News Translation
And that is how the universe was created. When the LORD God made the universe,

Holman Christian Standard Bible
These are the records of the heavens and the earth, concerning their creation at the time that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.

International Standard Version
These are the records of the universe at its creation. On the day that the LORD God made the earth and skies,

NET Bible
This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created--when the LORD God made the earth and heavens.

New Heart English Bible
This is the account of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, at the time when the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
This is the account of heaven and earth when they were created, at the time when the LORD God made earth and heaven.

JPS Tanakh 1917
These are the generations of the heaven and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.

New American Standard 1977
This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.

Jubilee Bible 2000
These are the origins of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens

King James 2000 Bible
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

American King James Version
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

American Standard Version
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
This is the book of the generation of heaven and earth, when they were made, in the day in which the Lord God made the heaven and the earth,

Douay-Rheims Bible
These are the generations of the heaven and the earth, when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the heaven and the earth:

Darby Bible Translation
These are the histories of the heavens and the earth, when they were created, in the day that Jehovah Elohim made earth and heavens,

English Revised Version
These are the generations of the heaven and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.

Webster's Bible Translation
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.

World English Bible
This is the history of the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Yahweh God made the earth and the heavens.

Young's Literal Translation
These are births of the heavens and of the earth in their being prepared, in the day of Jehovah God's making earth and heavens;


A generation does not always mean family tree.
Generation - all of the people born and living at about the same time, regarded collectively.

Regardless of how you structure your strawman, it does not take away or detract from the fact that the accounts are about real people and events - a history.
So you still have not addressed the post.
Either it's all allegorical and all the Bible writers are liars, or these are real historical accounts.

Take your pick.
 
McBell

McBell

Unbound
nPeace said:
I'll help you, since you know who really is being dishonest.

New International Version
This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.

New Living Translation
This is the account of the creation of the heavens and the earth. When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

English Standard Version
These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.

Berean Study Bible
This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made them.

New American Standard Bible
This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.

New King James Version
This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

King James Bible
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Christian Standard Bible
These are the records of the heavens and the earth, concerning their creation. At the time that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Contemporary English Version
That's how God created the heavens and the earth. When the LORD God made the heavens and the earth,

Good News Translation
And that is how the universe was created. When the LORD God made the universe,

Holman Christian Standard Bible
These are the records of the heavens and the earth, concerning their creation at the time that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.

International Standard Version
These are the records of the universe at its creation. On the day that the LORD God made the earth and skies,

NET Bible
This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created--when the LORD God made the earth and heavens.

New Heart English Bible
This is the account of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, at the time when the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
This is the account of heaven and earth when they were created, at the time when the LORD God made earth and heaven.

JPS Tanakh 1917
These are the generations of the heaven and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.

New American Standard 1977
This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.

Jubilee Bible 2000
These are the origins of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens

King James 2000 Bible
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

American King James Version
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

American Standard Version
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
This is the book of the generation of heaven and earth, when they were made, in the day in which the Lord God made the heaven and the earth,

Douay-Rheims Bible
These are the generations of the heaven and the earth, when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the heaven and the earth:

Darby Bible Translation
These are the histories of the heavens and the earth, when they were created, in the day that Jehovah Elohim made earth and heavens,

English Revised Version
These are the generations of the heaven and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.

Webster's Bible Translation
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.

World English Bible
This is the history of the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Yahweh God made the earth and the heavens.

Young's Literal Translation
These are births of the heavens and of the earth in their being prepared, in the day of Jehovah God's making earth and heavens;


A generation does not always mean family tree.
Generation - all of the people born and living at about the same time, regarded collectively.

Regardless of how you structure your strawman, it does not take away or detract from the fact that the accounts are about real people and events - a history.
So you still have not addressed the post.
Either it's all allegorical and all the Bible writers are liars, or these are real historical accounts.

Take your pick.
Click to expand...
Why did you change what the verse actually says to what you wanted the verse to say?
 
nPeace

nPeace

Veteran Member
Mestemia said:
Why did you change what the verse actually says to what you wanted the verse to say?
Click to expand...
Take a look at your post again.
Consider that you posted translations that said history, and historical account in Genesis 5:1
Now be honest. Who really is the dishonest on here? If you are honest, you would not point to me.
Creating a distraction is also a dishonest tactic.
If you were serious... or rather, if you could engage in serious discussion, you would have addressed the questions asked you, rather that create a distraction.

Since I am not aware of changing anything, why don't you tell me what it is I changed.
 
McBell

McBell

Unbound
nPeace said:
Take a look at your post again.
Consider that you posted translations that said history, and historical account in Genesis 5:1
Now be honest. Who really is the dishonest on here? If you are honest, you would not point to me.
Creating a distraction is also a dishonest tactic.
If you were serious... or rather, if you could engage in serious discussion, you would have addressed the questions asked you, rather that create a distraction.

Since I am not aware of changing anything, why don't you tell me what it is I changed.
Click to expand...

Back peddling does not help you.
You done damaged your credibility to the point I do not feel it possible to trust anything you post.

Have a nice day.
 
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