The Big Bang and Evolution

[omega2xx]

My first post to you in this thread was to ask you for evidence of your god. You seem like an intelligent person, obviously you wouldn't believe in something just because someone told you to. So you must have evidence, I just want to know what it is.

Unless matter, energy and life can create itself out of nothing, God is the most logical conclusion. Even science acknowledges dead element cant be the source of life.

Thanks for the compliment. Most of the evolutionists think I am as dumb as a bag full of doorknobs.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Oh yes, I do understand. My religion is a religion of life, not of death. My problem with you is to prove to you the Logic of the concept of Causality as an evidence for the existence of the Primal Cause. Now, this that you are wrong or myself for that matter, is irrelevant.

I don't (and will not) believe that the universe had a beginning. Doesn't need one. Also doesn't need a "cause". There is no proof in existence that states "how things went" hundreds of billions of years, trillions of years, or an infinite amount of time ago. That "someone" or "something" told you so isn't going to fly.

 

[JustWondering]

Unless matter, energy and life can create itself out of nothing, God is the most logical conclusion. Even science acknowledges dead element cant be the source of life.

Thanks for the compliment. Most of the evolutionists think I am as dumb as a bag full of doorknobs.

You're welcome. Science can't explain everything and likely never will answer some questions. However, science is really good at figuring out how things work in the natural world. There is literally tons of evidence to support evolution, so much evidence that to deny it you need to consciously be willingly ignorant and not look at any of the evidence to deny it. So if a creator/creators exist, evolution is part of the plan. Since all the religions that I am familiar with adhere to their god/s poofing everything into being whole, which doesn't line up with reality, I cannot except them. Obviously, the true religion would line up with reality, that should be common sense.

Some of my other problems with Christianity include things such as: the bible never mentions dinosaurs, the bible details a magic ritual that supposedly cures illnesses, a nine volt battery has more power than prayer, there is no physical evidence to support any of it's claims. As we can see, Christianity continues to fail lining up with reality.

I do not view believing in something with ZERO evidence backing it up as being virtuous. Do you view someone else's blind faith in Scientology, Hinduism, or Satanism as virtuous? If you're honest you'll answer no. Why is that? Why is their faith bad but you're faith is well placed? None of your beliefs are founded on sound reason and evidence.

I am a born skeptic, I need reasons to believe something. Even when I was a kid I questioned the legitimacy of Christianity. When I got older the arguments for Christianity that satisfied me before became obviously false. Your contention for instance that the universe had to come from something does not, by itself, in any way, support the existence of the Christian god. If you are intellectually honest, you would admit that no one knows how it all started, period, full stop.

 

[omega2xx]

You're welcome. Science can't explain everything and likely never will answer some questions. However, science is really good at figuring out how things work in the natural world. There is literally tons of evidence to support evolution, so much evidence that to deny it you need to consciously be willingly ignorant and not look at any of the evidence to deny it.

Wonderful. Name one thing the TOE preaches that has been proved. Scientifically of course. Now don't post a link. They never give any evidence. If you want to cut and paste what a link says, that's fine, but I quite reading links years ago.

So if a creator/creators exist, evolution is part of the plan.Since all the religions that I am familiar with adhere to their god/s poofing everything into being whole, which doesn't line up with reality, I cannot except them. Obviously, the true religion would line up with reality, that should be common sense.

Lets leave God out of this discussion and stick to science.

Some of my other problems with Christianity include things such as: the bible never mentions dinosaurs, the bible details a magic ritual that supposedly cures illnesses, a nine volt battery has more power than prayer, there is no physical evidence to support any of it's claims. As we can see, Christianity continues to fail lining up with reality.

What reality is Christianity failing in?

I do not view believing in something with ZERO evidence backing it up as being virtuous.

I will reply to that when you provide something the TOE preaches that has been proved.

Do you view someone else's blind faith in Scientology, Hinduism, or Satanism as virtuous? If you're honest you'll answer no. Why is that? Why is their faith bad but you're faith is well placed? None of your beliefs are founded on sound reason and evidence.

I can prove more in the chapter of Genesis than evolution has proved in 100+ years.

am a born skeptic, I need reasons to believe something. Even when I was a kid I questioned the legitimacy of Christianity. When I got older the arguments for Christianity that satisfied me before became obviously false. Your contention for instance that the universe had to come from something does not, by itself, in any way, support the existence of the Christian god. If you are intellectually honest, you would admit that no one knows how it all started, period, full stop.

If you were a born skeptic you would not believe in evolution.
Which argument of Christianity are false? Be specific.
If you were intellectually honest you would admit that life can't originate from lifeless elements. You would also admit you don't have a clue as to what the second life form was.

 

[Valjean]

One of the reasons why the Primal Cause exists in the first place is that, if He did not exist, you would not exist; I would not exist; the whole of the Universe would not exist. If you don't believe, tell me how the Universe started to exist. You should know to be so vehement that there is no reason for His existence.

Why do you believe the universe must have a cause?

 

[Ben Avraham]

Why do you believe the universe must have a cause?

Because the Universe could not have caused itself to exist, for heaven's sake! You are acting like a Christian stuck on Christian preconceived notions. If you are so vehement on the issue that the Universe was not caused to exist, explain to me why scientists claim an age for the Universe if it did not have a beginning in your opinion.

 

[Ben Avraham]

I don't (and will not) believe that the universe had a beginning. Doesn't need one. Also doesn't need a "cause". There is no proof in existence that states "how things went" hundreds of billions of years, trillions of years, or an infinite amount of time ago. That "someone" or "something" told you so isn't going to fly.

Okay, so where are we living and walking, on a bubble of air? That's an embarrassment! It means that atheists are constantly on denial. It does not matter if billions or trillions of years have passed since the Universe began. If it began it has an age; if it has an age and it could not have caused itself to begin it is only obvious that some thing that preceded it caused it to begin. As I can see, you don't believe in the existence of Logic as an evidence of the truth. As I said above, that's an embarrassment! I thought atheists were more intelligent than that! I admit I was mistaken about you guys. There is no difference between being under the power of atheistic preconceived notions and for Christians under the power of Christian preconceived notions. Pity!

 

[Valjean]

I think I'm acting more like a physicist avoiding commonsense notions of 'reality'.
Cause and beginning are two different things.

 

[Ben Avraham]

I think I'm acting more like a physicist avoiding commonsense notions of 'reality'. Cause and beginning are two different things.

Not really! These terms are as dependent on each other as death is to life. Since you cannot cause yourself to begin,
it is only obvious that something that preceded you had to to cause you to begin.

 

[psychoslice]

No matter how wonderful you think yourself your self to be, you will never truly know anything about the big bang or evolution, we will never truly know............can you handle that ??>

 

[Ben Avraham]

No matter how wonderful you think yourself your self to be, you will never truly know anything about the big bang or evolution, we will never truly know............can you handle that ??>

Big bang! Big bang of what? What caused the big bang to happen? As you know, I hope, it is not all the time that we
have a magician pulling a rabbit out of the hat.

 

[psychoslice]

Big bang! Big bang of what? What caused the big bang to happen? As you know, I hope, it is not all the time that we
have a magician pulling a rabbit out of the hat.

Well it certainly makes more since than a man in the sky that waves his magic wand, and wow, there you are lol.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Well it certainly makes more since than a man in the sky that waves his magic wand, and wow, there you are lol.

Is that what HaShem is for you, a man in the sky waving his magic wand? What about if he is a woman? The concept of Causality is more akin to a woman than to a man.

 

[Ben Avraham]

I think I'm acting more like a physicist avoiding commonsense notions of 'reality'.
Cause and beginning are two different things.

Can you separate beginning from cause or the other way around? I didn't think so.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Okay, so where are we living and walking, on a bubble of air? That's an embarrassment! It means that atheists are constantly on denial. It does not matter if billions or trillions of years have passed since the Universe began. If it began it has an age; if it has an age and it could not have caused itself to begin it is only obvious that some thing that preceded it caused it to begin. As I can see, you don't believe in the existence of Logic as an evidence of the truth. As I said above, that's an embarrassment! I thought atheists were more intelligent than that! I admit I was mistaken about you guys. There is no difference between being under the power of atheistic preconceived notions and for Christians under the power of Christian preconceived notions. Pity!

Haha... what a farce you and your statements are. Did you not read that I was exclusively talking about knowledge of "what happened" those billions or trillions of years ago? NOTHING about a beginning at all. Also in that statement was "or an infinite amount of time ago" - so I didn't even stop at the billions and trillions line like you appear to be implying. Stop reading only the parts of posts that you want to - I dare you.

And what in the world are you referring to with this "bubble of air" nonsense? I cannot fathom when I stated anything that would give you the impression that I am incompetent to this degree in this arena. I can only conclude outlying circumstances for such a comment, because it has no basis in rationality or reality that I can infer. Please, I am genuinely curious - where did you come up with this? What is the reasoning behind your asking me this inane question?

I don't claim that the universe has an age - YOU do. And I only included the "billions" and "trillions" of years part of the statement as a nod to your belief that there was a beginning, and to state that this belief has not one shred of evidence that points to knowledge of the circumstances or details about ANYTHING AT ALL that happened during any such time-frame. There is literally no way to currently know how far back it all goes - and guessing that it simply goes ALL THE WAY back - having no beginning, is just as valid a stance as pretending you know when a beginning happened - or that one happened at all.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Because the Universe could not have caused itself to exist, for heaven's sake! You are acting like a Christian stuck on Christian preconceived notions. If you are so vehement on the issue that the Universe was not caused to exist, explain to me why scientists claim an age for the Universe if it did not have a beginning in your opinion.

I can explain to you why I believe scientists claim an age for the universe. There's a trajectory to the contents of the universe as they expand, which points to a centralized event "at some point" in the past. However, this could easily be one event in a series of many. Given infinite time for gravity between bodies to do its work, the contents of the universe coalesce - at some point this singular mass of matter reaches a critical state and explodes forth, re-creating conditions like the the dispersal of matter we see in our universe now. This would also explain the reason that some of the contents don't follow the "accepted" trajectory. They are simply entities of mass that weren't pulled into "the center" before it exploded outward again.

And I don't believe it has everything to do with the assumption that the current, observable trajectory was the original/first/only. As much as no one would like to admit (and certainly not an "impartial" scientist), we human beings are prone to thinking that things have beginnings and ends - and we look for them in the patterns of everything around us. We're stuck with our lot of living briefly and dying within the vastness of space, and so we console ourselves with thoughts that everything around us is also bound in the same manner. "How did it all begin?" is something we ALWAYS want to know. It is in our nature. "Did it even begin?" is far more elusive a thought - more difficult to fathom that there may not have been a beginning, and scarier, to some extent, because it minimizes our importance to an infinite degree.

 

[ArtieE]

The Primal Cause has always existed. That's what existed before the Universe and you guys do not understand what was there before the BB. Your question is tantamount to establish an age for the the Primal Cause. Scientists have established an age for the Universe. About 14 billion years. The age of the Universe is an evidence that the Universe had a beginning. It is only obvious that it was caused to begin by the Primal Cause. If you find hard to accept that from me, tell me yourself how was the Universe caused to begin. Focus that I said "how" and not what or who. Hope for your reply to this.

My original post went like this:

"Those aren't reasons why your Primal Cause would exist in the first place, those are your reasons for why you think He does exist! Why and how did he exist "before" He created the universe? Why and how was there a Primal Cause instead of no Primal Cause "before" He created the universe? Suppose He hadn't bothered to create anything at all only He and He alone existed. Why and how would He exist? Suppose He was completely alone and only He existed. What if He asked Himself: "Why and how do I exist? Why am I here? What is my reason for existing? How come I exist?" What would be the answers?"

Your answer had nothing to do with my original post. Read it again and answer it properly!

 

[ArtieE]

Your life is a dilemma! You don't believe the Primal Cause exists, neither that He does not exist. What do you believe
then, in theories?

Why in the world would I have to believe anything about everything? When it comes to the universe I am interested in the reason(s) for its existence but why would I have a need to pick one of the many theories and start believing in it? It is far more interesting to keep an open mind and just learn about them.

 

[ArtieE]

Unless matter, energy and life can create itself out of nothing, God is the most logical conclusion. Even science acknowledges dead element cant be the source of life.

Thanks for the compliment. Most of the evolutionists think I am as dumb as a bag full of doorknobs.

Maybe you can answer?

"Why and how was there a Primal Cause instead of no Primal Cause "before" He created the universe? Suppose He hadn't bothered to create anything at all only He and He alone existed. Why and how would He exist? Suppose He was completely alone and only He existed. What if He asked Himself: "Why and how do I exist? Why am I here? What is my reason for existing? How come I exist?" What would be the answers?"

 

[Valjean]

No matter how wonderful you think yourself your self to be, you will never truly know anything about the big bang or evolution, we will never truly know............can you handle that ??>

What does my opinion of myself have to do with this? And I'm not the one who needs the security of religious mythology to deal with reality -- I can handle whatever the evidence points to.

Why will we never know anything about the BB or Evolution? Questions remain, but we do know about the BB, and we know a lot about evolution.
Next you'll be saying we'll never know the distance to Mars or what the bottom of the sea looks like.

Can you separate beginning from cause or the other way around? I didn't think so.

Sure -- why not? Can't you?

Why do you think there must be a cause? Reality isn't intuitive. The reality we experience is an abstraction.