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The big bang and the creation of the universe.

Repox

Truth Seeker
If God gets a first cause exception then so does energy. Time would have existed in some form as it is intwined with the fabric of space.

Explain how energy may be a first cause explanation for the universe.

Time is not an entity like matter or energy. Time is a human invention, it's a consequence of a human need to measure processes. As an example, scientists claim the universe may be 13.7 billion years old. That measure is based an annual calender invented by humans. What if time were measured in days instead of seconds? What if time where measured in 1/2 seconds? In either case, we would have different measures for time.
 
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Repox

Truth Seeker
Scientists can't prove the Big Bang theory and there is no proof for God either.

So unless you have a better idea than the meaningless word 'god', you may as well admit that no-one has any idea of why everything exists.

The difference between science and religion though, is that although science does not explain the alleged origin of the universe, or account for consciousness, it does produce encyclopedic amounts of useful information vital to human culture, whereas belief in god just produces infantile thought processes.

Have a look at those countries which are most obsessed about 'god'. Political correctness deems that I not mention them specifically, but they are between Europe and China. How is life in those places ?

Short simple answer - appalling.

So the evidence is that the more people think about god, the worse society gets.

I am not engaging in a moral argument, the topic is the big bang. To refute God as the explanation, another explanation is required. God is not a meaningless word because God is the only logical explanation for the big bang. Science has no explanation for it, other than unproven theories about multiple universes, etc.

Science cannot explain how something (universe) came from nothing. Only God, a spiritual being, can create something from nothing.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Explain how energy may be a first cause explanation for the universe.

Time is not an entity like matter or energy. Time is a human invention, it's a consequence of a human need to measure processes. As an example, scientists claim the universe may be 13.7 billion years old. That measure is based an annual calender invented by humans. What if time were measured in days instead of seconds? What if time where measured in 1/2 seconds? In either case, we would have different measures for time.

Time is a physical law like gravity. As you get to the singularity time stands still and is infinite. Energy in its purist state expanded and cooled before matter could even form. It was about 400 million years before stars formed. Before that mostly plasma and radiation.

Chronology of the universe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

zaybu

Active Member
I know God did it.

How did God reveal himself to you? With Freeman Morgan's voice, or Celine Dion's? Did you have a Ouiji board, or a crystal ball? Or maybe you woke up one morning and saw his glorified face on a toast? Tell us, we're anxious to know!
 

apophenia

Well-Known Member
I am not engaging in a moral argument, the topic is the big bang. To refute God as the explanation, another explanation is required. God is not a meaningless word because God is the only logical explanation for the big bang. Science has no explanation for it, other than unproven theories about multiple universes, etc.

Science cannot explain how something (universe) came from nothing. Only God, a spiritual being, can create something from nothing.


Apart from "it says so right here in this book", how do you conclude that there is such a thing as a 'spiritual being', and how would you know what such a being can or can't do ?

In other words, apart from your imagination and the imaginations of the authors of various 'spiritual books', what basis do you have for this belief ?
 

McBell

Unbound
I know God did it.
Herein is a big part of your problem.
You cannot discern between knowing something and believing something.

However, the name of the game here is to win the argument for God.
Which you cannot do outside the god choir.
Meaning that the only people who accept the "god did it" answer are those who already believe god did it.

Atheist must rely on science for a contrary argument.
No they don't.

Those who claim "god did it" have the burden of proof.
And since there is no objective empirical evidence that god even exists, it will be difficult to support any claim that god did anything.

So, I challenge atheist to prove God doesn't exist, or that science has the answer.
This is nothing more than a sad attempt at shifting the burden.
 

McBell

Unbound
I am not engaging in a moral argument, the topic is the big bang.
Then how about you stay on topic?

To refute God as the explanation, another explanation is required.
There is no need to refute a claim that has nothing but the wishful thinking of thos making the claim for support of the claim.

"God did it" is not an explanation for anything.
It is a cop out.

God is not a meaningless word because God is the only logical explanation for the big bang.
"God did it" is not a logical explanation of anything.
It is a lazy mans cop out.

Science has no explanation for it, other than unproven theories about multiple universes, etc.
Ironic how you would mention "unproven theories" when you yourself are pushing a claim that does not even qualify as a hypothesis...

Science cannot explain how something (universe) came from nothing.
Science does not make any claims about something coming from nothing.
Perhaps you should do some research into what the big bang actually says before you make an even bigger fool of yourself?

Only God, a spiritual being, can create something from nothing.
this claim is not even a hypothesis.
It is nothing more than an empty claim.
 

McBell

Unbound
Time is not an entity like matter or energy. Time is a human invention, it's a consequence of a human need to measure processes. As an example, scientists claim the universe may be 13.7 billion years old. That measure is based an annual calender invented by humans. What if time were measured in days instead of seconds? What if time where measured in 1/2 seconds? In either case, we would have different measures for time.
What if my aunt had balls, would that make her my uncle?

See how much fun the "what if" game can be?

To bad it does not help your "argument" any.
 

ruffen

Active Member
The universe (something) came out of the vacuum (nothing).

That might not be entirely accurate. I am not an expert on the subject, but if I understand the leading hypothesis correctly, there was not vacuum before the Universe came into existence.

There was no space with nothing in it, because even space itself and time itself are propserties of the universe that came from the Big Bang.
 

zaybu

Active Member
Originally Posted by zaybu
The universe (something) came out of the vacuum (nothing).

That might not be entirely accurate. I am not an expert on the subject, but if I understand the leading hypothesis correctly, there was not vacuum before the Universe came into existence.

There was no space with nothing in it, because even space itself and time itself are propserties of the universe that came from the Big Bang.

When I say, "The universe (something)", that includes space and time, and your own description, "space itself and time itself are properties of the universe", validates that claim. So rephrasing if you wish for greater clarity:

The universe (something that includes space and time) came out of the vacuum (nothing).
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
There's nothing to explains, since energy always existed.

Energy without mind or heart?
No thought ....no feeling....

You know my favor question....which came first...
If you prefer to argue energy....

Doesn't the question apply there as well?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Energy without mind or heart?
No thought ....no feeling....

You know my favor question....which came first...
If you prefer to argue energy....

Doesn't the question apply there as well?


This is your own personal hobby horse which has no credibility past imagination, does it?.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
thief said:
Energy without mind or heart?
No thought ....no feeling....

Here is an example:

The Sun - or any other star for that matter - produce all sorts of different energies, and the Sun has neither mind, nor heart, and there are no thoughts and no feelings.

What I had learned from physics and chemistry is that there can be no energy without mass.

Clearly, the Sun has mass, most of it, core and outer layers are hydrogen elements. It is the main sources of fuel. Huge amount of different energies are being released at the core, by fusing two hydrogen atoms into a heavier element - helium.

Helium is the second most abundent element in a star. Other trace elements (in a star) are or can be formed by fusing heavier atoms together - such as fusing 2 helium atoms together, or helium atom with hydrogen atom.

Light, ultraviolet and heat are some of the most common energies that reach the Earth.

Mass and energy are interrelated to one another. You can't have one without the other.

Another thing that I learned in physics and chemistry is that we normally see three states of matter - solid, liquid and gas - but there is a fourth and perhaps even most common of state in the universe - I'm talking about plasma.

The hydrogen elements - both at the core and outer layers - are hydrogen in their plasma state.

Like all states, what state a matter is in, is dependent on the temperature of the matter is experiencing. Since each star is extremely hot due to the thermonuclear fusion occurring at its core, then hydrogen exist in its plasma form, instead of the usual gas or liquid state.

All of this...in my example of the star or the Sun...showed that energies, whatever types they are, don't require divine hand or divine intervention. Hence it doesn't require any creator god.

And since god is supposed to be non-physical spirit, in another word - incorporeal - then it no matter how you look at this - the spirit cannot create mass or energy.
 

Repox

Truth Seeker
How did God reveal himself to you? With Freeman Morgan's voice, or Celine Dion's? Did you have a Ouiji board, or a crystal ball? Or maybe you woke up one morning and saw his glorified face on a toast? Tell us, we're anxious to know!

I am not obligated to tell you anything about why I know.

Why don't you take care of it mister smart guy. Present a natural science explanation for the universe. Remember, proof requires evidence. I am confident no one including the world's greatest scientist can do it. So, before you launch into a tirade about stupid believers, present that argument. Go ahead put me in my place.

Here's a news bulletin, God, a spiritual being, created the universe.
 

Repox

Truth Seeker
Here is an example:

The Sun - or any other star for that matter - produce all sorts of different energies, and the Sun has neither mind, nor heart, and there are no thoughts and no feelings.

What I had learned from physics and chemistry is that there can be no energy without mass.

Clearly, the Sun has mass, most of it, core and outer layers are hydrogen elements. It is the main sources of fuel. Huge amount of different energies are being released at the core, by fusing two hydrogen atoms into a heavier element - helium.

Helium is the second most abundent element in a star. Other trace elements (in a star) are or can be formed by fusing heavier atoms together - such as fusing 2 helium atoms together, or helium atom with hydrogen atom.

Light, ultraviolet and heat are some of the most common energies that reach the Earth.

Mass and energy are interrelated to one another. You can't have one without the other.

Another thing that I learned in physics and chemistry is that we normally see three states of matter - solid, liquid and gas - but there is a fourth and perhaps even most common of state in the universe - I'm talking about plasma.

The hydrogen elements - both at the core and outer layers - are hydrogen in their plasma state.

Like all states, what state a matter is in, is dependent on the temperature of the matter is experiencing. Since each star is extremely hot due to the thermonuclear fusion occurring at its core, then hydrogen exist in its plasma form, instead of the usual gas or liquid state.

All of this...in my example of the star or the Sun...showed that energies, whatever types they are, don't require divine hand or divine intervention. Hence it doesn't require any creator god.

And since god is supposed to be non-physical spirit, in another word - incorporeal - then it no matter how you look at this - the spirit cannot create mass or energy.

Thanks for the science lesson. Based on our material world, of course, we cannot understand how a spiritual being can do it. Apparently, no one even knows what a spiritual being is. Most people here are too sophisticated to comprehend the impossible. Pick up a bible and read what the prophets said about God, a spiritual being. That would be a good start.

There is another world outside of our material universe where heavenly bodies reside with God, it's called heaven. Yes, it really exists. Angels in heaven live forever, they have no existence outside of God. Unlike self centered humans, they live for God. No, not because they are stupid or because they have no choice, it is because they are obsessed by the sight of God. By choice, they surround God for all eternity interacting with Him.

No other being can create something from nothing. There is only one God, all others are human inventions. There was one angel who opposed God. We call him Satan, Lucifer, or any number of names for the rebellious angel.

The real story about Satan has never been told. Because we are on the topic of God and creation, I thought I'd tell it. In heaven, Satan began attacking and hurting the other angels. Finally, not finding a solution, God created the universe as a prison for Satan. Inside the universe, Satan has made repeated attempts to escape and return to heaven. Scientist call those scares on the edge of the universe "axis of evil."

For reasons I don't understand, God created paradise about 62 millions years ago. In paradise, dinosaurs where God's magnificent creatures. No, humans are not God's favorite creatures. Satan entered paradise and turned God's creatures against Him. Eons later, homo sapiens became the dominant species on earth. God didn't like one species dominating all others. God intervened (Bible). With his chosen people God attempted to reconcile things with humankind. It didn't work out. Subsequently, we live in a nasty world devoid of eternity. Civilizations are nesting places where we live out our lives.
 
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