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The Big Bang as evidence for God

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
Remember.....everything is memory,
there is no 'now'.
Expanding into what ?
Nothingness ??
~
Is the nothingness expanding also ?
Where is that edge ?
~
And..."We don't know what's beyond the 13 billion years we can see (in all directions)."
So said Paineful, we must be somewhere near the center, expanding from where ?
Also ask were we are in the expanding Cosmos,
what is the closest and furthest 'edge' of this particular expansion,
of the entire Cosmos, into what ?
~
'mud
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
Remember.....everything is memory,
there is no 'now'.
Expanding into what ?
Nothingness ??
~
Is the nothingness expanding also ?
Where is that edge ?
~
And..."We don't know what's beyond the 13 billion years we can see (in all directions)."
So said Paineful, we must be somewhere near the center, expanding from where ?
Also ask were we are in the expanding Cosmos,
what is the closest and furthest 'edge' of this particular expansion,
of the entire Cosmos, into what ?
~
'mud


If the universe is infinite there is no center.
And if the universe is 100 billion light years across, there are many places which would see 13 billion years in all directions. And then we'd have to figure if and how curved space would fit into the "picture", which would have no edge....apparently.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
Please give an example of something without a center.

That's not evidence. Nothing else is missing a "before" like the universe is. And the universe may not have a center.. But you gotta think outside of the 4-D box. If you have no positive evidence for your assertions, you have to admit to the weakness of those assertions.

I made no claim that it is.
Merely stated the fact a non-static center is still a center.

I think the original sentence needs work. In any case, you're claiming that the universe's shape is shifting? Any evidence for that.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
How do you know there's a center? And further, how do you know that it's not static?
Every point in an infinite universe would be a center and thus there are infinite centers....hence the saying...the universe is like a circle whose center is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere...

Think about it....from every direction where you sit now.....lies infinity...you really are the center of the universe, not just think you are....:D
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't completely understand why myself
I do. I also think I understand the disconnect between what you are describing and how you are misunderstanding it. First some sources so that you don't have to just take my word for it:
"In Section 5.2 we derived the redshift of photon wavelengths in a rather heuristic manner. In this section, a rigorous general relativistic interpretation will be given.
The key property of light propagation is that it obeys
ds=0 (A2.2)
That is to say, a light ray travels no distance at all in space-time. At a given time all points in space are equivalent...Remember that the spatial coordinates in the metric are comoving, so galaxies remain at fixed coordinates; the expansion is entirely taken care of by the scale factor a(t)...
In an expanding Universe, a(tr ) > a(te), so dtr > dte. The time interval between the two rays increases as the Universe expands." (emphasis added)
Liddle, A. (2003). An Introduction to Modern Cosmology (2nd Ed.). Wiley.

"We have seen in the introduction that galaxies are moving away from each other...
This phenomenon is easier to understand if we imagine a two-dimensional world instead of our three-dimensional one. A two-dimensional world corresponds to a surface, and all physical objects (and creatures) in this surface possess a width and a length, but no height. Creatures in this surface can move only inside the surface, they measure distances inside the surface and cannot even imagine a third dimension...
full

Let us now imagine a surface in the form of a sphere, which represents the Universe of the two-dimensional creatures. For us, this conception poses no difficulties at all; it is, however, not conceivable for the two-dimensional creatures! In addition, we imagine that this surface is expanding, as in Fig. 2.1.
This behavior corresponds to that of our three-dimensional Universe: now, all distances between points (or galaxies) on this surface of the sphere are increasing" (emphasis added)
Ellwanger, U. (2012). From the Universe to the Elementary Particles. A First Introduction to Cosmology and the Fundamental Interactions. Springer.

"How then can a “cosmic redshift” occur in the universe, where there is so much empty space and so few atoms to regulate the temperature? The origin of the cosmic cooling is a little bit like the Doppler effect we encountered earlier for waves emitted by moving sources. We see those waves “stretched” in wavelength as the source is moving away from us. A similar thing happens to a solitary wave travelling through an expanding space—the distance between crest and valley in the wave becomes stretched, the wavelength longer, the more the space expands. And if the space has expanded by a factor thousand since the emission of the cosmic light, the frequency of the light has decreased by this factor and the wavelength increased. So the cosmic redshift does not tell us that the source of the radiation is locally moving, but rather that the space through which it travels is expanding." (emphasis added)
Satz, H. (2013). Ultimate Horizons: Probing the Limits of the Universe. Springer.

In short, the "stretching" of spacetime due to expansion affects how we observe light that has been emitted from stars (the wavelengths lengthen, the "redshift" effect).


In that relatively small gap, we're able to observe galaxies at actual superluminal speeds.
We don't. This would violate special relativity. If a galaxy moved even close to the speed of light, Einstein's famous mass-energy equivalence (E=mc^2, at least in the most popular form of the equation) would tell us that the mass of the galaxies would approach infinity, and would actually BE INFINITE if they actually reached the speed of light, let alone surpassed it. Instead what we observe is evidence that the distance between galaxies is increasing faster than the speed of light.

And there's the rub. The long ascendant Transactional Interpretation, accounts for all quantum weirdness, explains the EPR paradox and entanglement. The objection to it has been mainly that having transactions taking place both forward and backward in time is just counter-intuitive.
It's not a matter of it being counterintuitive. Nonlocality is counterintuitive. The logic of quantum experiments is counterintuitive. Higher dimensional spaces with non-Euclidean geometries are counterintuitive. The issue with the TI is that fixes one seeming paradox by introducing a more problematic one.
"We need not artificially construct a theory along these lines since proposals with such backwards causal influences have already been developed. We will take as a clinical example the transactional interpretation of quantum mechanics due to John Cramer, which postulates that quantum events are determined by the interaction of wave-functions that propagate both forward and backward in time...Cramer postulates that not only does an emitter send a wave-function forward in time to an absorber, but the absorber sends one backward in time to the emitter. The state of the absorber (for example, the orientation of a polarizer) thereby influences the emission event, allowing the production only of photons in appropriate definite states of polarization. Cramer uses this mechanism to explain how the quantum correlations can be produced at space-like separation
The price to be paid in any such theory is the acceptance of explicit backwards causation, effects which precede their causes in every frame of reference
." (emphasis added)
Maudlin, T. (2011). Quantum Non-Locality and Relativity: Metaphysical Intimations of Modern Physics (3rd Ed.). Wiley-Blackwell.

Every interpretation of QM, according to its proponents, solves all of the problems. The Bohmian theory of quantum physics is a realist interpretation that is mathematically consistent and has its proponents claiming that it resolves the EPR paradox and even restores determinism, while detractors point out that it his highly nonlocal and only works because of a more-or-less ad hoc insertion of a new ontological entity (the "pilot wave") which guides point-like particles according to the dynamical laws of quantum mechanics. Everettians argue that they have solved the measurement problem, EPR, etc., because the wavefunction never in fact collapses, while detractors point out that this picture can't explain why particular outcomes are more likely in particular bases (in particular "universes" or "branches").


But Ruth Kastner, in her recent book, Understanding Our Unseen Realities: Solving Quantum Riddles, among other things, addressed the intuitive problem by referring the transactions taking place not backward and forward in time, but outside of time.
I've spoken with Kastner, and while I am not that big a fan of her new book (it's a popular text), I did like here more technical monograph on the same subject:
Kastner, R. E. (2013). The Transactional Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics: The Reality of Possibility. Cambridge University Press.
However, her account is no more free of problems than was Cramer's original TI or any other interpretation of QM. To quote just one critic as an example:
"according to Kastner the transaction between the source and the R-apparatus is supposed to exist in all runs of that experiment. Yet, this transaction alone cannot appropriately determine the probability distribution of the complete pair-state at the source. The distribution of the complete pair-state should also depend on the setting of the L-apparatus. But the probability distribution of the possible L-settings depends on the probability distribution of the complete pair-state at the source. So we are back to square one.
Finally, it is noteworthy that there is an important difference between the transactional interpretation and the indeterministic Bell-like retro-causal models we considered in 5.2 and 7. In the latter the probabilities of measurement outcomes are fundamentally factorizable, whereas in the former they are not."
Berkovitz, J. (2008). On predictions in retro-causal interpretations of quantum mechanics. Studies in History and Philosophy of Science Part B: Studies in History and Philosophy of Modern Physics, 39(4), 709-735.

I think at least part of the problem we've been having is the different interpretations we're using.
I'm not using any single interpretation, but I did point out I disagree with the standard treatment of QM as an irreducibly statistical framework for predicting the outcomes of experiments. I believe, like Kastner, Cramer, Bohm, and many, many others that quantum mechanics and quantum physics more generally does somehow describe physical systems. However, even if I were a die-hard TI proponent, I still wouldn't believe (and neither do proponents of the TI) that entanglement doesn't occur in the space of our experience or at least within spacetime. The TI absolutely rejects such a view, because it is fundamentally a realist interpretation.

I think you are probably referring to Kastner's "pre-spacetime", "possibilist transactional interpretation" in which a causally efficacious "possibility space" of sorts accounts for the statistical structure of quantum mechanics by imposing this structure on here pre-spacetime "realm". However, even in this interpretation, entanglement happens in our 3D or 4D reality (which depends on one's ontological interpretation of spacetime structure and dimensionality). I've scanned two passages of import because the bra's and ket's are not easy to reproduce:
full

full

Not in particular that the actual outcome of a nonlocal relationship (i.e., the instantaneous influence on a space-like separated system exerted by the a measured system entangled with it) doesn't even factor into the causally backwards-propagating "wave", and the "waves" that travel forwards and backwards in violation of causality nonetheless are physically real processes happening in the universe we experience. In fact, they're even more problematic because Kastner seeks a kind of melding of Bohr's antirealistic, statistical interpretation and a realist one, yielding physically real possibilities: "OW and CW are interpreted ontologically in PTI as physically real possibilities." (italics in original)

But entanglement has not just been observed
I'm not contesting that entanglement occurs. I know it does. I'm contesting your description of it.


The thing is, word's like instantaneous have no meaning in a timeless environment.
They have meaning in the TI, they have no global meaning in relativistic physics, and there is no physics in which they have no meaning locally as everything in physics is described via coordinate spaces (even things that don't exist and spaces that don't exist) and those things that are held to be "real" or to actually happen take place in some space in which either time is a coordinate, more than one coordinate, or intrinsic to the realized space. Entanglement happens "in time", as does the whole of quantum mechanics (why do you think the Schrödinger equation is a differential equation?).
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
Every point in an infinite universe would be a center and thus there are infinite centers....hence the saying...the universe is like a circle whose center is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere...

Think about it....from every direction where you sit now.....lies infinity...you really are the center of the universe, not just think you are....:D

Yeah, I get it. That's just playing with the terminology. The center is everywhere, but like every other instance, there is only one center. Saying it's everywhere is saying the same thing as there isn't one. A geometric shape can't be defined as infinite because it has no shape, so you can't say the center of what, only the nebulous, undifined form of an infinite universe.

I do. I also think I understand the disconnect between what you are describing and how you are misunderstanding it. First some sources so that you don't have to just take my word for it:
"In Section 5.2 we derived the redshift of photon wavelengths in a rather heuristic manner. In this section, a rigorous general relativistic interpretation will be given.
The key property of light propagation is that it obeys
ds=0 (A2.2)
That is to say, a light ray travels no distance at all in space-time.

Really. Then why is a Planck Length constant?

At a given time all points in space are equivalent...Remember that the spatial coordinates in the metric are comoving, so galaxies remain at fixed coordinates;

Expansion only applies to mega-groups of galaxies. Galaxies in smaller groups are more affected by gravity than the dark energy driving the acceleration of the universe. They move in relation to each other some having blue shifts and even colliding.
the expansion is entirely taken care of by the scale factor a(t)...
In an expanding Universe, a(tr ) > a(te), so dtr > dte. The time interval between the two rays increases as the Universe expands." (emphasis added)
Liddle, A. (2003). An Introduction to Modern Cosmology (2nd Ed.). Wiley.

If it did their velocity would differ, but c remains constant for both, for all. Only the frequency/wavelength changes.

"We have seen in the introduction that galaxies are moving away from each other...
This phenomenon is easier to understand if we imagine a two-dimensional world instead of our three-dimensional one. A two-dimensional world corresponds to a surface, and all physical objects (and creatures) in this surface possess a width and a length, but no height. Creatures in this surface can move only inside the surface, they measure distances inside the surface and cannot even imagine a third dimension...
full

Let us now imagine a surface in the form of a sphere, which represents the Universe of the two-dimensional creatures. For us, this conception poses no difficulties at all; it is, however, not conceivable for the two-dimensional creatures! In addition, we imagine that this surface is expanding, as in Fig. 2.1.
This behavior corresponds to that of our three-dimensional Universe: now, all distances between points (or galaxies) on this surface of the sphere are increasing" (emphasis added)
Ellwanger, U. (2012). From the Universe to the Elementary Particles. A First Introduction to Cosmology and the Fundamental Interactions. Springer.

Yes the space is expanding driven by dark energy or whatever. But Local entities like galaxies and smaller galaxy grooup within that space remain the same size, held together by the stronger local gravity.

"How then can a “cosmic redshift” occur in the universe, where there is so much empty space and so few atoms to regulate the temperature? The origin of the cosmic cooling is a little bit like the Doppler effect we encountered earlier for waves emitted by moving sources. We see those waves “stretched” in wavelength as the source is moving away from us. A similar thing happens to a solitary wave travelling through an expanding space—the distance between crest and valley in the wave becomes stretched, the wavelength longer, the more the space expands. And if the space has expanded by a factor thousand since the emission of the cosmic light, the frequency of the light has decreased by this factor and the wavelength increased. So the cosmic redshift does not tell us that the source of the radiation is locally moving, but rather that the space through which it travels is expanding." (emphasis added)
Satz, H. (2013). Ultimate Horizons: Probing the Limits of the Universe. Springer.
In short, the "stretching" of spacetime due to expansion affects how we observe light that has been emitted from stars (the wavelengths lengthen, the "redshift" effect)

What temperature? But otherwise I agree.

We don't. This would violate special relativity. If a galaxy moved even close to the speed of light, Einstein's famous mass-energy equivalence (E=mc^2, at least in the most popular form of the equation) would tell us that the mass of the galaxies would approach infinity, and would actually BE INFINITE if they actually reached the speed of light, let alone surpassed it. Instead what we observe is evidence that the distance between galaxies is increasing faster than the speed of light.

I've said several times, objects in the universe aren't being accelerated, but the space itself is, and it carries things apart a every greater velocities. But that's only applicable and greater distances. On a smaller scale things are governed by the greater local force of gravity.

It's not a matter of it being counterintuitive. Nonlocality is counterintuitive.

I think it is. Look at all the machinations to fit like the square peg of the Copenhagen Interpretation into the round peg of quantum mechanics. Same for Schrodinger's Cat. And there are numerous other examples like the universe wasn't expanding, and then nobody foresaw that the expansion was accelerating until it slapped cosmologists in the face just a few years ago..

The logic of quantum experiments is counterintuitive. Higher dimensional spaces with non-Euclidean geometries are counterintuitive. The issue with the TI is that fixes one seeming paradox by introducing a more problematic one.

Exactly. The one answer fixes all the other problem, but timelessness is counterintuitive so the answer must be something else. But we're coming to the end of that alternative road.

Like I said, we, like our respective interpretations, are at loggerheads

The price to be paid in any such theory is the acceptance of explicit backwards causation, effects which precede their causes in every frame of reference." (emphasis added)
Maudlin, T. (2011). Quantum Non-Locality and Relativity: Metaphysical Intimations of Modern Physics (3rd Ed.). Wiley-Blackwell.

Not backwards causation, but transactions being accomplished in a timeless "quantumland" for lack of a better word. And don't forget, Kastner and Cramer are working with an idea from perhaps the greatest physicist/cosmologist of the 20th Century, Feynman. And I think he got the idea from his mentor, Wheeler, who told him,
"I know why all electrons have the same charge and the same mass"
"Why?"
"Because they're all the same electron".

Yes it was a joke, but a joke based on a fact.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
I’ve often found here and elsewhere that the big bang theory is somehow evidence of a creator. To be fair, many scientists (including Hoyle, who coined the term “big bang” derisively) objected to the idea that the universe ever “began” for precisely this reason (or at least something similar). The origins of the infamous cosmological constant began with Einstein’s attempt to make the universe static rather than having originated.

So let’s grant, for the sake of argument, that the universe isn’t eternal (as basically all physics suggests). Here’s a problem with the “then necessarily god created it” argument that is based upon the idea of a “first cause” or the idea that there are no uncaused events or that everything must have a cause and so on: In all of these arguments, it is assumed that cause is some (rather simplistic, naïve) “linear” processes whereby we can assert that causes MUST precede effects.

With this EXTREMELY minimal causal assumption (causes precede effects) we cannot say anything about the “cause” of the universe. The SAME PHYSICS which suggest the universe is not eternal but originated with the big bang suggests that time’s origins are the same: the big bang. The point is this:

If causes precede effect, then there is no time in which ANYTHING could have PRECEDED the big bang, because there was no TIME for such a process to “happen”. In short, no “cause” can precede an “effect” when there is no “time” for it to precede in.

So whatever evidence the big bang may be for “god” or deism or whatever, it can’t be based on arguments from causality.

Read a good 10 pages of the thread before realizing what I would say is not being said how I would argue for it. So, I return to OP.

Addressing the part I highlighted in blue. Already stated in the thread, is the notion that Creator exists in timelessness. Another way of understanding that is the eternal order. Or simply eternity. Time with no beginning, and no end. Where tomorrow and yesterday are literally meaningless. As is every conceivable measurement of time.

By meaningless, I don't mean it couldn't occur, just that it would be understood as inherently meaningless.

You start all this out with the idea that some consider big bang as evidence of a creator. For some of us (theist types) that doesn't mean the Creator of You and Me. I make that distinction because wondering where this God, eternity, and such exists is not necessary to go outside of what you already identify as being within the universe, namely yourself. Some of us believe that the whole entire universe is essentially a veil pulled over our inherent, or divine, vision (not our physical eyes) that is blocking what is otherwise visible. Perhaps, self evident, is a better way of stating that. Such that the big bang actually references a 'lesser god' who 'created' the physical universe, but that Reality is actually occupying what we would otherwise call the same space, and that eternity is occurring within what what we may otherwise call time.

I put 'created' in small quotes, just as I would do with 'cause' for the physical universe. It has no real cause. But it is an effect, of that which has no actual cause. If this is deemed only semantical, I'd have little trouble expounding on this with a wall of text. I find it challenging to explain and understand this stuff, but not impossible, and actually kind of fun.

Not much more to add other than I do find "now" to be eternal. I realize within the physical world, it can be 'seen' as entirely relative to the observer. All fine and dandy within that framework to limit it in such a way. But even within the existence of the universe, there has never been an instance when now was not occurring. If anyone chooses to believe, or argue, for a beginning of now and an end where now no longer occurs, that's all good. I find it humorous. As well as mostly meaningless to think I can comprehend what such a beginning and ending most certainly looks like.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Then why is a Planck Length constant?
By definition. It's a unit, not a property invariant for all observers that always yields the same measurement (and, actually, it can only be measured approximately anyway).



Expansion only applies to mega-groups of galaxies.
It applies to the universe and everything in it, albeit in different ways and to different degrees. The reason we don't get farther from the sun isn't because the expansion of the universe doesn't hold here, but because the curvature effect of the sun trumps the expansion of the curved spacetime
I don't see what your point here is.

Galaxies in smaller groups are more affected by gravity than the dark energy driving the acceleration of the universe.
We have no idea what dark energy is other than a solution to a missing piece of cosmological models that explains expansion where nothing else does. It is absolutely not true any evidence exists to support the claim that smaller groups are "more affected by gravity than the dark energy driving the acceleration of the universe", as probably the simplest candidate for what dark matter actually is is the cosmological constant. We have no idea whether dark energy is constant, emanates or originates from sources, changes dynamically as its source(s) change over time, etc. Finally, it may not exist at all- there are cosmological models which explain all that dark energy is supposed to (and the only reason it is thought to exist as anything at all) without reference to it:
"Recently, there have been several papers discussing the possibility that the apparent accelerated expansion of the universe is not caused by this mysterious dark energy, but rather by inhomogeneities in the distribution of matter...
The main goal of this paper has been to present a simple model with the ability to explain the apparent accelerated expansion of the universe without the need to introduce dark energy. Inspired by the recent discussions about the possibility of explaining the apparent acceleration by inhomogeneities in the matter distribution, we have studied a model where the observer is assumed to be situated near the center of an underdense bubble in a flat, matter-dominated universe"
Alnes, H., Amarzguioui, M., & Grøn, Ø. (2006). Inhomogeneous alternative to dark energy?. Physical Review D, 73(8), 083519.

They move in relation to each other some having blue shifts and even colliding.
Again, these shifts are shifts in wavelength.
If it did their velocity would differ
No, because they aren't travelling (hence "a light ray travels no distance.."). We are in 4D space here, and velocity doesn't make any sense in such a space as every velocity vector must have a time component contributing to its orientation or direction. "Motion" is described in terms of lightcones, worldlines, worldtubes, etc.


I've said several times, objects in the universe aren't being accelerated, but the space itself is
So what do you mean by this:

In that relatively small gap, we're able to observe galaxies at actual superluminal speeds.


I think it is. Look at all the machinations to fit like the square peg of the Copenhagen Interpretation into the round peg of quantum mechanics.
There are none. The Copenhagen interpretation IS quantum mechanics as it is used by practicing physicists. It is the orthodox view because it holds that it is meaningless to ask questions apart from measurement/observation, that quantum mechanics actually is the thing it is used for: an extremely successful but irreducibly statistical theory that allows us to predict experimental outcomes.

Same for Schrodinger's Cat.
This isn't solved by TI. And saying that something in the future causes something in the past is at least as objectionable as macroscopic superposition states. With the TI, we still have all the observable paradoxes of quantum physics, it's just that they are explained by a further paradox: really existing physical probabilities (for the PTI) and backwards/retro- causation.
And there are numerous other examples like the universe wasn't expanding, and then nobody foresaw that the expansion was accelerating until it slapped cosmologists in the face just a few years ago..
What does this have to do with either the TI or quantum mechanics?



Exactly. The one answer fixes all the other problem, but timelessness is counterintuitive so the answer must be something else. But we're coming to the end of that alternative road.
You keep talking about timelessness. All relativistic physics is timeless (special relativity it timeless, general relativity is timeless, quantum electrodynamics is timeless, etc.).Quantum mechanics isn't timeless, regardless of whether you accept the TI or not. In fact, the crux of the TI depends upon time because it explains the instantaneous causal relations between space-like separated systems via both forward and backward propagation through time.

Not backwards causation
That's what the TI is.
but transactions being accomplished in a timeless "quantumland" for lack of a better word.
Kastner has better words, and Cramer describes retrocausality quite plainly. For example:
"the absorber responds by producing an advanced “confirmation wave” (the complex conjugate wave function ψ∗ or Dirac “bra” state vector < a | which travels in the reverse time direction back to the source" (emphasis added)
Cramer, J. G. (2006). A transactional analysis of interaction-free measurements. Foundations of Physics Letters, 19(1), 63-73.
And don't forget, Kastner and Cramer are working with an idea from perhaps the greatest physicist/cosmologist of the 20th Century, Feynman.
Actually they owe more to Wheeler. But who cares? Einstein was brilliant, and rejected all of quantum physics. One of the most cited papers in physics (EPR) was his attempt to show that QM couldn't be a physical theory, and it is cited so often because the test he thought impossible is continually realized in experiments and has been since Aspect et al.'s 1982 experiment.
 

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ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
By definition. It's a unit, not a property invariant for all observers that always yields the same measurement.

The speed of light is "a property invariant for all observers that always yields the same measurement". And the speed of light is defined by distance and time, both of which must be invariable for the speed of light to be invariable. And it's the speed of light that defines a Planck length and Planck time, the smallest possible distance or time period in this universe. It's either that or violate relativity.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
True.

Heard of length contraction or time dilation? Both distance and time are observer-dependent properties as a consequence of the invariance of the velocity of light.

But that's just the relative appearance to outside observers. Two space ships traveling at half the speed of light toward each other, and with a planet half-way in between, all fire a light at each other. All 6 light beams would be measured to be traveling at c from their respective points of departure and points of arrival. And if they checked, Planck Length and Planck Time would all be the same constants. The only difference in the light would be a blue shift at their arrival for all observers.

Now try this thought experiment. What if the effect of dark energy (or whatever) that's causing the expansion and the acceleration of the expansion of the universe, red shifting everything out of sight beyond 13 billion light years, were to be reversed and started a contraction. Wouldn't everything beyond 13 billion light years that we can't see now (if it's there), suddenly become visible. And if the universe is infinite, wouldn't we be blinded by the light and fried by all the compacted X-rays, gamma rays etc.? If not, what would happen? Maybe (hopefully) it can only work to power expansion. But apparently expansion was slowing until about 5 billion years after the Big Bang, when it stared accelerating. So maybe it was turned on (or up) at that point, and if it could be turned on, or up (or off), could it be reversed????

Sleep tight.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
A little poem from Lord Alfred Tennyson to lighten matters....'Thoughts'.... :)

I chatter over stony ways,
In little sharps and trebles,
I bubble into eddying bays,
I babble on the pebbles.

I chatter, chatter, as I flow
To join the brimming river,
For men may come and men may go,
But I go on for ever....
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
I don't completely understand why myself, it has to do with an object going superluminal as it passes the Hubble Sphere but before it reaches the event horizon. In that relatively small gap, we're able to observe galaxies at actual superluminal speeds.

See for yourself:



And there's the rub. The long ascendant Transactional Interpretation, accounts for all quantum weirdness, explains the EPR paradox and entanglement. The objection to it has been mainly that having transactions taking place both forward and backward in time is just counter-intuitive. But Ruth Kastner, in her recent book, Understanding Our Unseen Realities: Solving Quantum Riddles, among other things, addressed the intuitive problem by referring the transactions taking place not backward and forward in time, but outside of time. I think at least part of the problem we've been having is the different interpretations we're using.



But entanglement has not just been observed, it's been proven: http://www.cnet.com/news/researchers-demonstrate-quantum-entanglement-prove-einstein-wrong/



The thing is, word's like instantaneous have no meaning in a timeless environment. How we're engaged with this timeless environment, I'm guessing has to do with quantum level interactions not being limited by the "indivisibility" of Planck spacetime. I believe if we find the answer to one, we'll discover the other--but that's just me.
This timeless environment is the fourth dimension and is a godlike attribute of the universe. A fourth dimensional being would be in all time not limited to the three dimensions we are used to. It would be in everywhere in every time.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But that's just the relative appearance to outside observers.
Not really, and this is key. There are no "outside observers" as there is no privileged reference frame. Differing measurements of space-like and time-like intervals from different reference frames are equally valid.
Two space ships traveling at half the speed of light toward each other, and with a planet half-way in between, all fire a light at each other. All 6 light beams would be measured to be traveling at c from their respective points of departure and points of arrival
Not exactly. Consider a different example (as I already prepared the graphic for this one). It's the classic train car example in which Bob is stationary on the platform relative to Alice who is in a train car. She has fitted a mirror to the ceiling, and has a light source emitter on the floor. As she passes Bob at time t0 a beam of light is emitted, hits the ceiling mirror, and then goes down:
full

Both Alice and Bob agree that the time taken for the light beam to hit the mirror and then return to the floor is the same. However, they disagree as to how far the light travelled. For Alice, during the relevant time interval the light went straight up some distance d and the same distance straight down (depicted in the far left of the graphic). For Bob, the situation is different: the beam's trajectory traces a triangle as shown. It therefore traverses a greater distance in the same time. As speed is a measure of how much distance is traversed over units of time, and both Alice and Bob agree on the time interval, the light beam travels faster for Bob (it covers more distance in the same amount of time).
It is because the speed of light is the constant c that we have this effect. And it is for such reasons that Lorenz transforms (unlike their Galilean counterparts) involve not just changes to x' in the new coordinate system via the equation x'=x-vt, but include gamma and the constant c in order to make the speed of light invariant.

. And if they checked, Planck Length and Planck Time would all be the same constants.
That's like saying that if they checked, an inch would be an inch or that all observers would measure a meter to be a meter.
Sleep tight.
If only! ;)
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
This timeless environment is the fourth dimension and is a godlike attribute of the universe. A fourth dimensional being would be in all time not limited to the three dimensions we are used to. It would be in everywhere in every time.

We're four dimensional beings. Entangled particles show that there is no time involved in (quantum land?), ever how that's involved with our universe--most likely it's part of a timeless, undetectable (so far to us) ether, for lack of a better word.

Not really, and this is key. There are no "outside observers" as there is no privileged reference frame. Differing measurements of space-like and time-like intervals from different reference frames are equally valid.

Not exactly. Consider a different example (as I already prepared the graphic for this one). It's the classic train car example in which Bob is stationary on the platform relative to Alice who is in a train car. She has fitted a mirror to the ceiling, and has a light source emitter on the floor. As she passes Bob at time t0 a beam of light is emitted, hits the ceiling mirror, and then goes down:
full

Both Alice and Bob agree that the time taken for the light beam to hit the mirror and then return to the floor is the same. However, they disagree as to how far the light travelled. For Alice, during the relevant time interval the light went straight up some distance d and the same distance straight down (depicted in the far left of the graphic). For Bob, the situation is different: the beam's trajectory traces a triangle as shown. It therefore traverses a greater distance in the same time. As speed is a measure of how much distance is traversed over units of time, and both Alice and Bob agree on the time interval, the light beam travels faster for Bob (it covers more distance in the same amount of time).
It is because the speed of light is the constant c that we have this effect. And it is for such reasons that Lorenz transforms (unlike their Galilean counterparts) involve not just changes to x' in the new coordinate system via the equation x'=x-vt, but include gamma and the constant c in order to make the speed of light invariant.

That's not the classic Einstein thought experiment, which you can see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativity_of_simultaneity
Pay particular attention to the 6th and 7th illustrations along with the accompanying 2nd and 3rd paragraph. I'm not sure but I think there's too much going on in your example. Take out the mirror, and they should both see the light go up, but the one on the platform would see it hit to the rear of the center of the car, per the examples in the Wiki article.

That's like saying that if they checked, an inch would be an inch or that all observers would measure a meter to be a meter.

Well yes, because like light, the speed of which is invariable for all observers, Planck time/length is defined by light therefore is invariable for all observers as well.

What is the reference for your train example?
 
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