The Big Bang Theory is dead.

[Subduction Zone]

All right. Is abiogenesis proposed to have led to evolution? If not, what did? Maybe I didn't read what has been said scientifically about abiogenesis.

Yes, abiogenesis led to evolution. Evolution arises when there is reproduction with variation and competition.

That is all that it takes.

First life was probably so simple that most of its reproduction was identical. Competition between identical cells is meaningless since it is the same as if the parent cell never died and there was only one of them. But, sometimes the cell would split and one of the halves would not be able to survive. Please note, there are never only one or even two cells for long once life starts. There will be rather quickly a whole population of cells. Sometimes when a cell would split one would be slightly inferior. Heck, it is a population so sometimes both would be inferior. Those would eventually die off. But sometimes when a cell split there would be a version that was better at reproducing in the particular environment. If it did not die off by accident early its sort would eventually replace the original. And we would see improvements occur again and again and again until the existing cells bore little resemblance to the original.

And sooner or later the environment would change or even more likely life would enter a different environment and with different "rules" there would be different changes that would be successful. After a while you would have multiple variations, all of which could be distinguished from each other.

 

[F1fan]

I do not recall that I ever said I know precisely how it was done.

You could learn from reputal sources, but you refuse.

As you know, precise details were not given in the biblical account.

That's because it isn't factual. It's fictional and shouldn't be interpreted literally.

No scientific studies were taken by men and explained in the book of Genesis.

That's because the people who wrote the stories made up the content with guesses.

I believe now that it did not happened by...chance meeting from somewhere, falling from above or bubbling up from a soupy mass by unintelligent force.

That's due to you accepting bad interpretations of the Bible.

I now believe there is an Intelligent Designer who also has relayed knowledge about the future.

There is no factual basis for this.

It makes sense to me now. As I have said I did not always believe in God or that He made the heavens and the earth. Even though I sang beautiful songs in church. Great pieces of music. Now I do believe in God and do not believe life on earth happened without a Grand Intelligent Designer.

That's religious thinking at work, and not factual.

 

[YoursTrue]

You are wrong. You are mincing words. You have gotten the answer many times. I'm not going to play this game further.

A second definition (from the Encyclopedia Britannica) says:
"Abiogenesis, the idea that life arose from nonlife more than 3.5 billion years ago on Earth. Abiogenesis proposes that the first life-forms generated were very simple and through a gradual process became increasingly complex. Biogenesis, in which life is derived from the reproduction of other life, was presumably preceded by abiogenesis, which became impossible once Earth’s atmosphere assumed its present composition."
I hope you read the definition there, sir.

Abiogenesis | Definition & Theory | Britannica

Abiogenesis, the idea that life arose from nonlife more than 3.5 billion years ago on Earth. Abiogenesis proposes that the first life-forms generated were simple and gradually became increasingly complex. Biogenesis, in which life is derived from the reproduction of other life, was presumably...

www.britannica.com

 

[YoursTrue]

This has been asked and answered probably 100s of times by now. What is there to give me confidence this will be recognized now and that we will not see this question come up another 100 times as if it had never been asked or answered?

As I see it we are at the game stage where it is just knock the pieces over and keep asking the same questions already answered. Are you claiming never to have asked this and never gotten an answer?

Yet what you are doing is denying what two definitions say now, and you do not give any evidence in the form of a link or definition saying why abiogenesis did not supposedly lead to evolution (the theory of). So -- have a good evening. Either abiogenesis led to evolution (the theory of) or it did not.

 

[YoursTrue]

Many have told you what the science says.

That is your choice to believe as you choose, but if you are claiming that belief is a fact, you need the evidence and sound argument to present it that way.

Again, what you believe to be is your business and is not science and has no evidence.

What I believe without evidence is irrelevant to what can be demonstrated and explained with evidence as is what you believe by the same token.

Life is the evidence insofar as I am concerned that life is here by means of an intelligent force. Not mechanical unintelligent forces that came about.

 

[YoursTrue]

So no evidence... got it.

The evidence is life. The Bible is not a science book with experimentation and explanation of the mechanical means as to how cells came about and the various lifeforms developed but it gives understanding that life comes from God insofar as I believe.
So if you have evidence that abiogenesis occurred, leading to life and consequential evolution, please -- allow the evidence to show. Thanks.
I understand the logic. I no longer agree that it happened by unintelligent forces. The Bible, as you probably know, does not go into detail about gravity, difference of lifeforms in detail as to how they all came about...
But thanks for your response anyway. Take care. (have a smile -- have a nice day...evening.. )

 

[John53]

Yet what you are doing is denying what two definitions say now, and you do not give any evidence in the form of a link or definition saying why abiogenesis did not supposedly lead to evolution (the theory of). So -- have a good evening. Either abiogenesis led to evolution (the theory of) or it did not.

Life has evolved whether it was created, occurred naturally or came in from outer space (or maybe some other way no one has thought of). No one knows for certain how it first started but there's more than enough evidence to show beyond reasonable doubt that it has evolved into what we see today. I don't know how life started nor do I particularly care. There is evidence for abiogenisis but I for one don't really understand it. Nor do I understand why some super powered creator God would bother doing what we see.

 

[YoursTrue]

Life has evolved whether it was created, occurred naturally or came in from outer space (or maybe some other way no one has thought of). No one knows for certain how it first started but there's more than enough evidence to show beyond reasonable doubt that it has evolved into what we see today. I don't know how life started nor do I particularly care. There is evidence for abiogenisis but I for one don't really understand it. Nor do I understand why some super powered creator God would bother doing what we see.

I don't know how life evolved or came about in detail. Neither does anyone else on earth, even if they say they do. They don't. Your last point as to why God would do what He did, I had a similar question when I first started studying the Bible. God wanted to do it. That's why. I was a pretty challenging kid to raise. Good student, rebellious to a degree. I won't go into detail, but -- I used to say to my parents, "I didn't ask you to have me..." I did not know the Bible or God at the time. There's a lot to learn about both.
Anyway -- yes -- (have a nice evening, nice talking with you even though we don't agree right now,)

 

[John53]

I don't know how life evolved or came about in detail. Neither does anyone else on earth, even if they say they do.

I do know how life evolved, there is a wealth of information and evidence. How it first started I don't know.

 

[YoursTrue]

First, the opposite of design is NOT chance.

I had a feeling someone would say something like that.

The opposite of design is undesigned.

ok...

For example, the formation of a star happens via processes that are understood, that we see happening today, and that do not involve intelligent intervention. This is a process that is not designed, but it is also not 'by chance'. The simple action of gravity is enough to make it happen.

You don't know that.

Second, you *claim* it is unlikely to happen without design, but since we don't know the process for it to happen, we don't know that it would require intelligent intervention.

The evidence itself (life in its forms) tell me that there is a Creator. Exactly how it happened, no one knows. As it is said, the concept of gravity is not really known. But we all admit it's there.

Furthermore, there are no likely intelligent agents that have been verified to be around at that time, so the likelihood of an intelligent intervention is very, very low.

I understand but I do not agree with those assumptions. I mean, at this point, it's like what scientists believe and their advocates accept even though these are often assumptions based on -- ?? -- about the 10 billion years and first life starting -- vs. what the Bible says about creation.

Third, the original life was NOT life 'as we see it' today.

I can figure that as science has it. And the Bible says so too. Meaning first light, then separating water, then fish, etc.
And it could be that God made/created the first cell. I don't know how the first cell really came about. Do you?

For one thing, it was ALL single celled. It was also anaerobic: oxygen was actually poison to early life. But since there was very little oxygen in the atmosphere at that time, this was not a problem for the life that existed then. It wasn't for another 2 billion years or so that more complex cells developed that produced oxygen in abundance (causing a massive die off of previous forms of life). Only after that did plants, animals, and eventually humans develop.

OK, hmm, 2 billion years. OK, who knows? It's conjecture. Took a long time. As we count time. Could have been 10 billion, or 10 million, I wonder why not? So however it happened, frankly, it's here. And few people want to die. I just wonder how scientists figure that many humans do not want to die in the theoretical evolution of consciousness. (Good night...later perhaps. ) Once again, thank you for your kindness.

 

[YoursTrue]

I do know how life evolved, there is a wealth of information and evidence. How it first started I don't know.

OK, the jury is out about how it got started. The Bible is not a book of science, but insofar as I am concerned, the outline of how life began on the earth is reasonably reported in the Bible.
The problems I see now with the theory of evolution is in the details. Yes there are fossils. In many respects, however, I do not believe the dating of the fossils and moreso, the categorizing of such.

 

[John53]

OK, the jury is out about how it got started. The Bible is not a book of science, but insofar as I am concerned, the outline of how life began on the earth is reasonably reported in the Bible.
The problems I see now with the theory of evolution is in the details. Yes there are fossils. In many respects, however, I do not believe the dating of the fossils and moreso, the categorizing of such.

Must be hard knowing more than the people who study them. I'd love to see your findings on how they are wrong.

 

[YoursTrue]

Must be hard knowing more than the people who study them. I'd love to see your findings on how they are wrong.

I said I question or wonder about many of the conclusions or assertions made about categorizing fossils as well as dating them. I will look forward to reading more about the dating of various finds and what and how the scientists drew their conclusions.
It's not quite like music. For instance if a piece is in the key of G Major virtually every musician knows what that means. There is no guesswork, no particular variance. But if a fossil or artifact is found I'd like to know more as to how it is categorized.

 

[YoursTrue]

P.S. @John53 I realize there are conjectures made about things like flopping fish and how they supposedly emerged out of water to become land breathers. I do not see any verification of these ideas, only by imagination as to how it may have happened.

 

[stvdv]

Big Bang is dead

If it happens at millions of years interval, it does not mean it's dead, it just means you're lucky you missed it

 

[John53]

P.S. @John53 I realize there are conjectures made about things like flopping fish and how they supposedly emerged out of water to become land breathers. I do not see any verification of these ideas, only by imagination as to how it may have happened.

Physical and observational evidence is not conjecture.

That you think you know more than the people who do the research is about the only conjecture you've come up with.

 

[YoursTrue]

Only if you do the computations incorrectly. If you assume independent probabilities when they are not independent, you can get results that are way too small.

No matter. Based strictly on the mathematical possibllites, no wonder scientists say it must have taken billions of years. Now that we're mentioning that, why is that? I can only guess why they say it took so long... I won't venture the guess right now, I'll wait for what I think is probably the answer from scientifically oriented persons who put their trust in their positions.
Furthermore, as proclaimed by some as I have read, abiogenesis could have produced more than one thing to produce different items. Such as a compound to produce plants, maybe later conveniently another compound to produce animals. Or maybe they both came from one original cell. Hmmm, who knows? According to science. And so forth. In other words, it's simply too incredible for me to believe it happened that way. By chance.
But it doesn't matter any more because statistically I wonder how scientsts figure plants and animals came up, whether one came from another cellular structure that popped up from the process of abiogenesis, or if somehow animal life came from one cell evolving and then plant life came from another cell produced by abiogenesis.
If the God outlined in the Bible is too much for some to believe in, the possibilities of abiogenesis leading to evolution is virtually not there.

 

[YoursTrue]

Physical and observational evidence is not conjecture.

That you think you know more than the people who do the research is about the only conjecture you've come up with.

Can you explain why it is said that millions, if not billions of years passed for abiogenesis followed by evolution occurred in order to produce the first plants and animals? How do scientists know?

 

[YoursTrue]

Physical and observational evidence is not conjecture.

That you think you know more than the people who do the research is about the only conjecture you've come up with.

OK, so you accept that humans evolved from fish. I do not. I do not see any evidence beyond conjecture about this. If you or scientists do, please post the evidence that it happened as posited. The best I saw is that fish "NEEDED" to develop air breathing mechanisms to escape from predators. Now they're saying the fish NEEDED to do this. Well, some fish anyway. Might as well say humans NEED to fly and will develop wings or mechanisms to get them to fly -- and guess what? I'm sure some believers in evolution will say, Yes, that certainly is a possibility. Have -- a nice day -- enjoy the blue sky if you have nice weather today.

 

[Polymath257]

I had a feeling someone would say something like that.


ok..

You don't know that.

Actually, we *do* know that gravity alone is sufficient to form stars. We can see the process happening today. We can use our understanding of gravity to make detailed models of the process that match observations. In those models, all that is required is gravity.

So, to the extent that it is *possible* to know something about the real world, we *do* know this. Maybe the problem is in what you consider the word 'know' to mean. For example, do you consider it to be 'known' that the sun is a star?

The evidence itself (life in its forms) tell me that there is a Creator. Exactly how it happened, no one knows. As it is said, the concept of gravity is not really known. But we all admit it's there.

Once again, you fail to explain *why* the existence of life and its diversity implies the existence of a creator. it seems to be an assumption you make with no justification whatsoever.

I understand but I do not agree with those assumptions. I mean, at this point, it's like what scientists believe and their advocates accept even though these are often assumptions based on -- ?? -- about the 10 billion years and first life starting -- vs. what the Bible says about creation.

Once again, the age of the universe is about 13.8 billion years. This is not simply conjecture, but is supported by multiple lines of evidence.

As for life starting about 3.8 billion years ago, it is *known* that life existed that long ago. It is *known* that such life was anaerobic and that the large scale use of oxygen wasn't for another 2 billion years or so. Once again, this is supported by multiple lines of evidence, backed up by observations, etc. It is more certain that anything required in a court of law.

I can figure that as science has it. And the Bible says so too. Meaning first light, then separating water, then fish, etc.
And it could be that God made/created the first cell. I don't know how the first cell really came about. Do you?

Not in detail. Is that required to know when it happened?

OK, hmm, 2 billion years. OK, who knows? It's conjecture. Took a long time.

Once again, it is NOT conjecture. It is the result of observation and understanding what the evidence says.

As we count time. Could have been 10 billion, or 10 million, I wonder why not?

Because the evidence says so this way and not the other ways.

So however it happened, frankly, it's here. And few people want to die. I just wonder how scientists figure that many humans do not want to die in the theoretical evolution of consciousness. (Good night...later perhaps. ) Once again, thank you for your kindness.

Why is that even relevant?