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The Big Bang Theory is dead.

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Sure. You use the standard dating methods to get ages for the different fossils. Then you look at the results.

If the oldest fossils with life are from 3.8 billion years ago, that demonstrates billions of years.

If the first animal fossils are from around a billion years ago, that demonstrates that it took almost 3 billion years for animals to arise.
OK, thanks. You are so kind, I really appreciate it. I did a little research on this and find that it is said the evidence is spotty. And then there seems to have been a burst of fish types. (OK my use of the terminology is not the greatest but I think you probably know what I mean. I hope.) Still and all, again I wondered when did the first fish appear (according to scientists). And I find this: Tracing the evolutionary origins of fish to shallow ocean waters | Penn Today.
It's an interesting account, and I can't say I understand all of the assertions -- BUT -- anyway -- :)
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Sure. You use the standard dating methods to get ages for the different fossils. Then you look at the results.

If the oldest fossils with life are from 3.8 billion years ago, that demonstrates billions of years.

If the first animal fossils are from around a billion years ago, that demonstrates that it took almost 3 billion years for animals to arise.
OK, but -- how do they get to the c. 3 billion years time? I'm not saying it is not true, but again I wonder how scientists arrive at that conclusion. Do dating methods count back that far? I think in part that's what I need to know more about. Also, while there are fossils and while distinct enough types that appear to be changes may be observed -- does this show that these various types evolved? (without a significant intelligent force)
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
OK, but -- how do they get to the c. 3 billion years time? I'm not saying it is not true, but again I wonder how scientists arrive at that conclusion. Do dating methods count back that far? I think in part that's what I need to know more about. Also, while there are fossils and while distinct enough types that appear to be changes may be observed -- does this show that these various types evolved? (without a significant intelligent force)
Yes, some of the methods work back that far. The relevant aspect is called the half life of the radioactive material. For example, carbon 14 has a half life of about 5700 years. But uranium 238 has a half life of about 5 billion years.

For each half life, half of the radioactive material decays into something else. That means that after 5 half lives, there is only 1/32 as much left. After 10 half lives, there is less than .1% (that’s one part in a thousand).

That is why carbon 14 dates are unreliable past about 50000 years. But uranium dates are good for billions of years.

Usually, more than one radioactive material is used for the dating. Since they will have different half lives, it would be incredibly unlikely to get the same age from both methods unless that is the actual age. There are a lot of checks to be made to verify the reliability of an age obtained.

As for this showing the species evolved. The dates show when certain types lived. By looking at what sorts of things lived at different times, we can see how the range of living things changed over time. We find that those close to being the same age are also similar structurally. Those further away in time also tend to be more different.

So the question is whether those later species are descended from the earlier ones. At one point it was conjectured that there were several 'catastrophes' and new species put into place after each one. But as more and more evidence accumulated, it became impossible to explain the evidence by such. The changes were not all simultaneous. Instead, they tended to be fairly gradual over time.

This *is* evolution. That this happened was understood before Darwin. What Darwin did was give an explanation of *how* it happened.

We could get into what sort of evidence would support the existence of an intelligent intervention, but suffice it to say that the changes we have seen do not appear to be directed to any goals, but rather are closer to changes due to adaptation to a changing environment.
 
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Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
OK, thanks. You are so kind, I really appreciate it. I did a little research on this and find that it is said the evidence is spotty. And then there seems to have been a burst of fish types. (OK my use of the terminology is not the greatest but I think you probably know what I mean. I hope.) Still and all, again I wondered when did the first fish appear (according to scientists). And I find this: Tracing the evolutionary origins of fish to shallow ocean waters | Penn Today.
It's an interesting account, and I can't say I understand all of the assertions -- BUT -- anyway -- :)
What don't you understand? Perhaps I can clarify things.

As noted in the article, we have not found many fish fossils from the time when fish first developed. The earliest 'fish-like' animals we have fossils for are from about 530 million years ago. These were what is known as 'jawless fish'. It should be noted that there are *modern* fish that are jawless: the hagfish and the lampreys.

Fish with jaws started appearing about 480 million years ago. And yes, the number of different types of fish rose a lot after this.

 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Yes, some of the methods work back that far. The relevant aspect is called the half life of the radioactive material. For example, carbon 14 has a half life of about 5700 years. But uranium 238 has a half life of about 5 billion years.

For each half life, half of the radioactive material decays into something else. That means that after 5 half lives, there is only 1/32 as much left. After 10 half lives, there is less than .1% (that’s one part in a thousand).

That is why carbon 14 dates are unreliable past about 50000 years. But uranium dates are good for billions of years.

Usually, more than one radioactive material is used for the dating. Since they will have different half lives, it would be incredibly unlikely to get the same age from both methods unless that is the actual age. There are a lot of checks to be made to verify the reliability of an age obtained.

As for this showing the species evolved. The dates show when certain types lived. By looking at what sorts of things lived at different times, we can see how the range of living things changed over time. We find that those close to being the same age are also similar structurally. Those further away in time also tend to be more different.

So the question is whether those later species are descended from the earlier ones. At one point it was conjectured that there were several 'catastrophes' and new species put into place after each one. But as more and more evidence accumulated, it became impossible to explain the evidence by such. The changes were not all simultaneous. Instead, they tended to be fairly gradual over time.

This *is* evolution. That this happened was understood before Darwin. What Darwin did was give an explanation of *how* it happened.

We could get into what sort of evidence would support the existence of an intelligent intervention, but suffice it to say that the changes we have seen do not appear to be directed to any goals, but rather are closer to changes due to adaptation to a changing environment.
Ok. I realize these are progressive steps or changes, if I may use such a word as progressive. I am assuming that if it were merely a mechanical process, frankly there would be no change. Because the element of life is involved. Or duplication. I am going back to basics. For instance, rocks do not duplicate or evolve by life within them. Recognizing that such things like rainstorms and earthquakes may have occurred before life began, literally moved rocks and soil, the very fact we are having a discussion about this tells me two things...whoever you are, you are a very kind person and the literal, actual genetic detailed transforming of life forms is really unknown except by postulations, sizing up fossils and dates. How do you feel about the second point?
I will say, though, that survival of the fittest is a term to be thought about. Why do I think so? Because it is saying that (1) life can be extinguished in the various entities, and (2) some life forms evidently fight for natural survival according to the theory as well as natural life. Not talking about war and things like that. But now that I mention that, the death swim of salmon spawning their eggs is
Thanks for coping with my questions. Later perhaps as I consider the grand privilege I have of thinking about these things. Unlike gorillas, fish, lions, etc. :) and consider more about our discussions. I am absolutely sure they do not think like that. I did not read any scientific reports about that. But I am sure. :)
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Ok. I realize these are progressive steps or changes, if I may use such a word as progressive. I am assuming that if it were merely a mechanical process, frankly there would be no change.
Why would you assume that?
Because the element of life is involved. Or duplication. I am going back to basics. For instance, rocks do not duplicate or evolve by life within them.
Right. There is no life within them.
Recognizing that such things like rainstorms and earthquakes may have occurred before life began, literally moved rocks and soil, the very fact we are having a discussion about this tells me two things...whoever you are, you are a very kind person and the literal, actual genetic detailed transforming of life forms is really unknown except by postulations, sizing up fossils and dates. How do you feel about the second point?
Well, you are correct in many cases: we don't know the detailed genetic changes that occurred. The reason we don't know, and may never know, is that the genetics isn't preserved in the fossils. We can determine structures, sometimes we can determine colors. But most often all we have is the bones and even there most of the minerals have been replaced in the process of fossilization.

But are the details required to say that we know evolution happened? I don't think so. We can tell that there were changes in structure over time. We have every confidence that life at any time is descended from some form of life previously and that everything today had descendants back to when life got started.
I will say, though, that survival of the fittest is a term to be thought about. Why do I think so? Because it is saying that (1) life can be extinguished in the various entities, and (2) some life forms evidently fight for natural survival according to the theory as well as natural life. Not talking about war and things like that. But now that I mention that, the death swim of salmon spawning their eggs is
Be careful. The phrase 'survival of the fittest' was invented by a popularizer and is NOT part of the actual theory of evolution.

Evolution happens by *adaptation* to a changing environment. those individuals that are better adapted to their environment are more likely to reproduce and thereby leave their genes for the next generation. This means that the population can change gradually over the generations as the environment changes. Over many generations, this can lead to large scale change of the type we actually see in the fossil record.
Thanks for coping with my questions. Later perhaps as I consider the grand privilege I have of thinking about these things. Unlike gorillas, fish, lions, etc. :) and consider more about our discussions. I am absolutely sure they do not think like that. I did not read any scientific reports about that. But I am sure. :)
Correct. At this point, the human species is the only one to evolve abstract thought and the develop the cultural aspects of tool use and more advanced technology.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Yes, some of the methods work back that far. The relevant aspect is called the half life of the radioactive material. For example, carbon 14 has a half life of about 5700 years. But uranium 238 has a half life of about 5 billion years.

For each half life, half of the radioactive material decays into something else. That means that after 5 half lives, there is only 1/32 as much left. After 10 half lives, there is less than .1% (that’s one part in a thousand).

That is why carbon 14 dates are unreliable past about 50000 years. But uranium dates are good for billions of years.

Usually, more than one radioactive material is used for the dating. Since they will have different half lives, it would be incredibly unlikely to get the same age from both methods unless that is the actual age. There are a lot of checks to be made to verify the reliability of an age obtained.

As for this showing the species evolved. The dates show when certain types lived. By looking at what sorts of things lived at different times, we can see how the range of living things changed over time. We find that those close to being the same age are also similar structurally. Those further away in time also tend to be more different.

So the question is whether those later species are descended from the earlier ones. At one point it was conjectured that there were several 'catastrophes' and new species put into place after each one. But as more and more evidence accumulated, it became impossible to explain the evidence by such. The changes were not all simultaneous. Instead, they tended to be fairly gradual over time.

This *is* evolution. That this happened was understood before Darwin. What Darwin did was give an explanation of *how* it happened.

We could get into what sort of evidence would support the existence of an intelligent intervention, but suffice it to say that the changes we have seen do not appear to be directed to any goals, but rather are closer to changes due to adaptation to a changing environment.
Let me put it this way about the "how." From my understanding, Darwin thought that if something looked like an ape with two arms and two legs resembling human limbs or gorillas, etc. (not crocodiles per SE), they must be part of the ape family. Right? (I have other questions, and thank you for answering.) But he didn't know about genes, did he? I don't know whether he did or didn't. **OK, I looked it up and seems he did not know about genetics. Maybe I am wrong about that. Says the Nat'l Institute of Health USA - "Darwin's theory of natural selection relied critically on the continual production of heritable variation in populations. From his own observations he knew that natural populations contained a wealth of variation, and he had a clear view of how these variants would accumulate in populations under the influence of natural selection. But he did not know how variation was generated, or how traits could be inherited. It is remarkable that his theory of evolution was essentially correct despite his lack of knowledge of the causes of heredity." Maybe I'll read his book because I can't figure what he considered as a wealth of variation in what is called natural populations. I'd have to get more specifics about his thoughts there. Then again, maybe I won't read his book now. I'll see. His original postulates were not always correct anyway, were they? But according to the NIH, seems he didn't know at that point about DNA. if I understood their description. And yes, I have questions about DNA too in reference to "heritable characteristics." :)
I can understand if you're getting tired of answering my continual questions although I thank you for your continuance, please do not feel obligated to answer, but I do appreciate it. Realizing this now could take a lifetime I can see why scientists can get very, very involved in the details and findings.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Let me put it this way about the "how." From my understanding, Darwin thought that if something looked like an ape with two arms and two legs resembling human limbs or gorillas, etc. (not crocodiles per SE), they must be part of the ape family. Right? (I have other questions, and thank you for answering.) But he didn't know about genes, did he? I don't know whether he did or didn't. **OK, I looked it up and seems he did not know about genetics. Maybe I am wrong about that. Says the Nat'l Institute of Health USA - "Darwin's theory of natural selection relied critically on the continual production of heritable variation in populations. From his own observations he knew that natural populations contained a wealth of variation, and he had a clear view of how these variants would accumulate in populations under the influence of natural selection. But he did not know how variation was generated, or how traits could be inherited. It is remarkable that his theory of evolution was essentially correct despite his lack of knowledge of the causes of heredity." Maybe I'll read his book because I can't figure what he considered as a wealth of variation in what is called natural populations. I'd have to get more specifics about his thoughts there. Then again, maybe I won't read his book now. I'll see. His original postulates were not always correct anyway, were they? But according to the NIH, seems he didn't know at that point about DNA. if I understood their description. And yes, I have questions about DNA too in reference to "heritable characteristics." :)
I can understand if you're getting tired of answering my continual questions although I thank you for your continuance, please do not feel obligated to answer, but I do appreciate it. Realizing this now could take a lifetime I can see why scientists can get very, very involved in the details and findings.
Does it matter if Darwin knew about genes or not? He didn't by the way. And it was a long list of traits that determines that people are apes. Similarities that are only shared by us and by other apes. That is how we knew that we were apes. Even the creationist that formed the genus/species method of animal classification, Carl Linnaeus, knew that humans were apes. It was not just Darwin that could see that.

But here is where we get into the science part. And even though Darwin's concepts were testable and confirmable with what we knew then every new technology opens up new ways that we can test ideas.

When genes and chromosomes were first discovered it was found that humans had 23 pairs (46 total) of chromosomes and other great apes had 24 pairs (48 in total). That was a little disturbing for evolution of man, but not very. Afterall the number of chromosome in equines varies from 32 all the way up to 66, and we knew that they were more closely related at one point since we could still interbreed horses, and donkeys, and zebras. The offspring were sterile, but at one point they had to be close enough so that they were fertile.

So how can we use chromosomes to see if humans and apes are related. Since we have one less pair than other great apes, and we already knew when various species broke off there were two possibilities. Either at least three different times a chromosome split for the other great apes, and by the general shape of them it looked as if it had to be the same one. Or, humans had a join between chromosomes in the past. And when we finally were able to sequence the DNA of chromosomes we had a way of testing our relatedness. A key and important point. At the end of chromosomes there are repeating sequences of DNA that do nothing besides to tell the various copying devices that tthey are getting close to the end of a chromosome. These are called Telomeres. And roughly in the middle somewhere there is another noncoding block of DNA that is important to reproduction called a Centromere. These again can be identified easily these days. If we had a chromosome that was formed by two others joining that would mean that there would still be an old no longer used centromere and telomeres in the interior of one of our chromosomes. The lack of this would have been a big hit on evolution. And it was found. It is our Chromosome number 2:


Chromosomes[edit]​

Further information: Chimpanzee genome project
Humans have only twenty-three pairs of chromosomes, while all other extant members of Hominidae have twenty-four pairs.[6] It is believed that Neanderthals and Denisovans had twenty-three pairs.[6]

Human chromosome 2 is a result of an end-to-end fusion of two ancestral chromosomes.[7][8][9] The evidence for this includes:

  • The correspondence of chromosome 2 to two ape chromosomes. The closest human relative, the chimpanzee, has nearly identical DNA sequences to human chromosome 2, but they are found in two separate chromosomes. The same is true of the more distant gorilla and orangutan.[10][11]
  • The presence of a vestigial centromere. Normally a chromosome has just one centromere, but in chromosome 2 there are remnants of a second centromere in the q21.3–q22.1 region.[12]
  • The presence of vestigial telomeres. These are normally found only at the ends of a chromosome, but in chromosome 2 there are additional telomere sequences in the q13 band, far from either end of the chromosome.[13]
We conclude that the locus cloned in cosmids c8.1 and c29B is the relic of an ancient telomere-telomere fusion and marks the point at which two ancestral ape chromosomes fused to give rise to human chromosome 2.
— Jacob W. Ijdo[13]

They say it so much better than I did.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
@Polymath257 I will take some time to research some of the points you brought out. If I think of a question I will ask it. But thank you very much for your answers and forgive me if I repeat a question. :)
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Why would you assume that?

Right. There is no life within them.

Well, you are correct in many cases: we don't know the detailed genetic changes that occurred. The reason we don't know, and may never know, is that the genetics isn't preserved in the fossils. We can determine structures, sometimes we can determine colors. But most often all we have is the bones and even there most of the minerals have been replaced in the process of fossilization.

But are the details required to say that we know evolution happened? I don't think so. We can tell that there were changes in structure over time. We have every confidence that life at any time is descended from some form of life previously and that everything today had descendants back to when life got started.

Be careful. The phrase 'survival of the fittest' was invented by a popularizer and is NOT part of the actual theory of evolution.

Evolution happens by *adaptation* to a changing environment. those individuals that are better adapted to their environment are more likely to reproduce and thereby leave their genes for the next generation. This means that the population can change gradually over the generations as the environment changes. Over many generations, this can lead to large scale change of the type we actually see in the fossil record.

Correct. At this point, the human species is the only one to evolve abstract thought and the develop the cultural aspects of tool use and more advanced technology.
OK, I'll be careful about "survival of the fittest." Although I thought this was part and parcel of the theory. But! (and I said I would stop but now I'm going over your answer...) I was thinking about bees and ants, for instance. I know there are different varieties but their inherent abilities to build habitats for themselves and branch off into various work aspects of their way of life (sorry if my terms are not on the spot but I think you know what I mean) like queen bees and worker bees, etc. It strikes me as incredible and hard to believe these activities happened without some guiding influence from a super intelligence. How it affected these beings is obviously beyond me. No matter how I look at it, humans are still limited. :) With individual characteristics compared to gorillas and fish, etc.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Why would you assume that?

Right. There is no life within them.

Well, you are correct in many cases: we don't know the detailed genetic changes that occurred. The reason we don't know, and may never know, is that the genetics isn't preserved in the fossils. We can determine structures, sometimes we can determine colors. But most often all we have is the bones and even there most of the minerals have been replaced in the process of fossilization.
Right now I'm not contesting the dates of some things because I do not believe when the Bible says a day in the creation account it means a 24 hour day. But rather it indicates a set period of time with a beginning and a close for each period of activities as described. So millions of years for some things do not make me wonder too much.
But I have questions about the dating of some fossils and categorizing them for several reasons and because of the possibility of cast-off of leaching from soil or rock into the bone thus possibly altering the accuracy of the time the fossil was alive.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Yes, some of the methods work back that far. The relevant aspect is called the half life of the radioactive material. For example, carbon 14 has a half life of about 5700 years. But uranium 238 has a half life of about 5 billion years.

For each half life, half of the radioactive material decays into something else. That means that after 5 half lives, there is only 1/32 as much left. After 10 half lives, there is less than .1% (that’s one part in a thousand).

That is why carbon 14 dates are unreliable past about 50000 years. But uranium dates are good for billions of years.

Usually, more than one radioactive material is used for the dating. Since they will have different half lives, it would be incredibly unlikely to get the same age from both methods unless that is the actual age. There are a lot of checks to be made to verify the reliability of an age obtained.

As for this showing the species evolved. The dates show when certain types lived. By looking at what sorts of things lived at different times, we can see how the range of living things changed over time. We find that those close to being the same age are also similar structurally. Those further away in time also tend to be more different.

So the question is whether those later species are descended from the earlier ones. At one point it was conjectured that there were several 'catastrophes' and new species put into place after each one. But as more and more evidence accumulated, it became impossible to explain the evidence by such. The changes were not all simultaneous. Instead, they tended to be fairly gradual over time.

This *is* evolution. That this happened was understood before Darwin. What Darwin did was give an explanation of *how* it happened.

We could get into what sort of evidence would support the existence of an intelligent intervention, but suffice it to say that the changes we have seen do not appear to be directed to any goals, but rather are closer to changes due to adaptation to a changing environment.
Especially for changes, such as moving to land from entirely water said to be adapting to a changing environment, it would seem to me that it would have to be very, very slow change. Because of genetics. Certainly not sudden from water breathing to air breathers. So I can't see how it could have happened by the process of evolution. But maybe I'm wrong.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Let me put it this way about the "how." From my understanding, Darwin thought that if something looked like an ape with two arms and two legs resembling human limbs or gorillas, etc. (not crocodiles per SE), they must be part of the ape family. Right?
Not quite that simplistic. The similarities go far deeper than simply having two arms and two legs and 'resembling' each other.

In fact, Linneaus had put humans and apes together when he first classified species. Why?

Well, we are clearly placental mammals: we have hair and our young are born, drink milk from the mother, etc.

We have a collar bone, flat nails on our fingers and toes, eye sockets made of bone (that go all around), etc. Among all mammals, these characteristics are diagnostic of primates.

We lack a tail, have color vision, a narrow nose, downward pointed nostrils, a fused frontal bone, etc. These are characteristic of apes.

From a purely biological perspective, humans are a type of ape.
(I have other questions, and thank you for answering.) But he didn't know about genes, did he? I don't know whether he did or didn't. **OK, I looked it up and seems he did not know about genetics. Maybe I am wrong about that.
That is correct. Darwin didn't know about genes or how inheritance works. That was first figured out by Mendel a few decades after Darwin did his work.
Says the Nat'l Institute of Health USA - "Darwin's theory of natural selection relied critically on the continual production of heritable variation in populations. From his own observations he knew that natural populations contained a wealth of variation, and he had a clear view of how these variants would accumulate in populations under the influence of natural selection. But he did not know how variation was generated, or how traits could be inherited. It is remarkable that his theory of evolution was essentially correct despite his lack of knowledge of the causes of heredity." Maybe I'll read his book because I can't figure what he considered as a wealth of variation in what is called natural populations. I'd have to get more specifics about his thoughts there. Then again, maybe I won't read his book now. I'll see. His original postulates were not always correct anyway, were they? But according to the NIH, seems he didn't know at that point about DNA. if I understood their description. And yes, I have questions about DNA too in reference to "heritable characteristics." :)
No, Darwin didn't know about DNA. The role of DNA in genetics wasn't figured out until the 1950's by Watson and Crick. The specifics of the genetic code weren't figured out until the 1960's. This was over a century after Darwin.

But what happened is that our learning about genetics only clarified questions about what Darwin worked on. It resolved issues, as opposed to bringing up new ones. The same is true of our understanding of DNA. Finally, we could look at how specific genes change over generations at the molecular level.

So, Darwin gave some basic ideas, but was wrong about many specifics where he was doing speculation (about inheritance, for example). But, as we learned more, the basic idea was supported and elaborated and clarified.

That is why focusing on Darwin is a mistake. He gave the basic ideas of variation and of natural selection. But the specifics of how those work weren't understood for 100 years after Darwin. Even today, there are aspects that are being studied.

But that is how science works: we get a framework and then elaborate with specifics as we gain more data.
I can understand if you're getting tired of answering my continual questions although I thank you for your continuance, please do not feel obligated to answer, but I do appreciate it. Realizing this now could take a lifetime I can see why scientists can get very, very involved in the details and findings.

Yes, there are many different aspects of this, as there are in any area of study. At the introduction, it is typical to get the broad outline of what has been discovered. As you proceed, more details and a deeper understanding is given. And, of course, unanswered questions are pondered and data is searched for to solve them.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Especially for changes, such as moving to land from entirely water said to be adapting to a changing environment, it would seem to me that it would have to be very, very slow change. Because of genetics. Certainly not sudden from water breathing to air breathers. So I can't see how it could have happened by the process of evolution. But maybe I'm wrong.

Yes, the changes of this sort happen over the course of millions of years. But, there are species alive *today* that show aspects of the transition from water to land. Have you heard of mudskippers?


These are *fish* with fins that can also live on land for a limited period of time. While not directly related to the ancestors of amphibians, they do show one stage of how that transition can occur.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Yes, the changes of this sort happen over the course of millions of years. But, there are species alive *today* that show aspects of the transition from water to land. Have you heard of mudskippers?


These are *fish* with fins that can also live on land for a limited period of time.
ok, they're limited on land, yes I have read about them.
These semi land dwellers are alive now? I forgot. Maybe it's a dumb question but I I wonder -- it they're alive now -- I guess they are not mutating to live one or the other for the duration. Meaning either complete water dweller or complete land dweller. I imagine an organism cannot mutate backwards, meaning back to the form from which they mutated. ? Not sure what the postulation is. Again -- here's what I figure -- 1. there is no actual verification of genetic changes from one form (not speaking of supposed bird species changing because they are still birdie types -- not dinosaurs) and 2. so far as I have heard they don't mutate back to the earlier form. I'll stop there. Now I understand if you don't want to continue. I also want you to know I truly appreciate your kindnesses in answering. Thanks again.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
ok, they're limited on land, yes I have read about them.
These semi land dwellers are alive now? I forgot.
Yes, they are alive now. Read the article.
Maybe it's a dumb question but I I wonder -- it they're alive now -- I guess they are not mutating to live one or the other for the duration. Meaning either complete water dweller or complete land dweller.
This shows a deep misunderstanding of how evolution works. No species 'mutates' for a purpose they have. Mutations produce variation and natural selection determines which individuals survive to produce offspring.

So, what happens to the mudskippers in the future depends on what happens to their environment in the future. if it dries up, the descendants might very well move to be on land more and more. If, instead, it gets wetter, they might return to being primarily or exclusively marine. Either way, if the necessary mutations don't show up, they might also go extinct. This could happen if the environment changes too quickly.

So, for example, if the environment starts to get drier over the course of many generations, these mudskipper may become more and more land dwellers.

But remember that amphibians are not exclusively water or land dwellers. They have a mixed life style and it wasn't until reptiles evolved that exclusively land based vertebrates existed.
I imagine an organism cannot mutate backwards, meaning back to the form from which they mutated. ?
Not exactly, no. Or else, it would be incredibly unlikely. But it is possible to mutate in such a way that some of the structures change to be similar to the old ones.
Not sure what the postulation is. Again -- here's what I figure -- 1. there is no actual verification of genetic changes from one form (not speaking of supposed bird species changing because they are still birdie types -- not dinosaurs) and 2. so far as I have heard they don't mutate back to the earlier form. I'll stop there. Now I understand if you don't want to continue. I also want you to know I truly appreciate your kindnesses in answering. Thanks again.

Again, remember that we have known the role of DNA only for about 70 years. We have known about the genetic code for about 60 years.

We simply don't expect to see major changes in any species in that amount of time. We might see some small changes, but no major structural ones. We don't expect to see changes between species in nature in less than 50-100,000 years with it usually taking many times that long.

I don't mind continuing, but I think you need to do some reading from a textbook and not from a popular site. Your questions are reasonable (on their face) but you seem to not have a lot of the background required to really understand the answers. Even at the level of a basic time line of when different discoveries happened and when different ideas were common.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Yes, the changes of this sort happen over the course of millions of years. But, there are species alive *today* that show aspects of the transition from water to land. Have you heard of mudskippers?


These are *fish* with fins that can also live on land for a limited period of time. While not directly related to the ancestors of amphibians, they do show one stage of how that transition can occur.
I realize they're classified as fish but many fish can't live too long out of water. And these can't live to long out of water either, can they? Maybe longer than codfish or salmon but not real long either. They have to go back to water to keep living.
Yes, they are alive now. Read the article.

This shows a deep misunderstanding of how evolution works. No species 'mutates' for a purpose they have. Mutations produce variation and natural selection determines which individuals survive to produce offspring.

So, what happens to the mudskippers in the future depends on what happens to their environment in the future. if it dries up, the descendants might very well move to be on land more and more. If, instead, it gets wetter, they might return to being primarily or exclusively marine. Either way, if the necessary mutations don't show up, they might also go extinct. This could happen if the environment changes too quickly.

So, for example, if the environment starts to get drier over the course of many generations, these mudskipper may become more and more land dwellers.

But remember that amphibians are not exclusively water or land dwellers. They have a mixed life style and it wasn't until reptiles evolved that exclusively land based vertebrates existed.

Not exactly, no. Or else, it would be incredibly unlikely. But it is possible to mutate in such a way that some of the structures change to be similar to the old ones.


Again, remember that we have known the role of DNA only for about 70 years. We have known about the genetic code for about 60 years.

We simply don't expect to see major changes in any species in that amount of time. We might see some small changes, but no major structural ones. We don't expect to see changes between species in nature in less than 50-100,000 years with it usually taking many times that long.

I don't mind continuing, but I think you need to do some reading from a textbook and not from a popular site. Your questions are reasonable (on their face) but you seem to not have a lot of the background required to really understand the answers. Even at the level of a basic time line of when different discoveries happened and when different ideas were common.
Ok let's say mutations do not have a set conclusion. That's kind of obvious, you're right. It (mutation) just happens by...something -- an inner force perhaps? Not sure how it happens. I'm thinking maybe some will say there are no accidents with mutations. Because technically speaking, now that we're on the subject, can't be any accidents in evolution. It seems some changes work out for continuance and some do not.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Yes, they are alive now. Read the article.

This shows a deep misunderstanding of how evolution works. No species 'mutates' for a purpose they have. Mutations produce variation and natural selection determines which individuals survive to produce offspring.

So, what happens to the mudskippers in the future depends on what happens to their environment in the future. if it dries up, the descendants might very well move to be on land more and more. If, instead, it gets wetter, they might return to being primarily or exclusively marine. Either way, if the necessary mutations don't show up, they might also go extinct. This could happen if the environment changes too quickly.

So, for example, if the environment starts to get drier over the course of many generations, these mudskipper may become more and more land dwellers.

But remember that amphibians are not exclusively water or land dwellers. They have a mixed life style and it wasn't until reptiles evolved that exclusively land based vertebrates existed.

Not exactly, no. Or else, it would be incredibly unlikely. But it is possible to mutate in such a way that some of the structures change to be similar to the old ones.


Again, remember that we have known the role of DNA only for about 70 years. We have known about the genetic code for about 60 years.

We simply don't expect to see major changes in any species in that amount of time. We might see some small changes, but no major structural ones. We don't expect to see changes between species in nature in less than 50-100,000 years with it usually taking many times that long.

I don't mind continuing, but I think you need to do some reading from a textbook and not from a popular site. Your questions are reasonable (on their face) but you seem to not have a lot of the background required to really understand the answers. Even at the level of a basic time line of when different discoveries happened and when different ideas were common.
I have looked at textbooks and find the same generalities without supporting evidence in terms of exact detailed confirms of their posits. Considering that Hawking's Grand Design was not a book of evolution yet it said mankind was about 200,000 years old but that without anything but their statement as if the reader should accept that. Then the time changed later on to 300,000+ because of a few fossils found elsewhere. So ..I truly thank you for conversation but will probably stop. Take care and I mean that. I will try to do more reading.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
But he didn't know about genes, did he? I don't know whether he did or didn't. **OK, I looked it up and seems he did not know about genetics. Maybe I am wrong about that. Says the Nat'l Institute of Health USA - "Darwin's theory of natural selection relied critically on the continual production of heritable variation in populations. From his own observations he knew that natural populations contained a wealth of variation, and he had a clear view of how these variants would accumulate in populations under the influence of natural selection. But he did not know how variation was generated, or how traits could be inherited. It is remarkable that his theory of evolution was essentially correct despite his lack of knowledge of the causes of heredity." Maybe I'll read his book because I can't figure what he considered as a wealth of variation in what is called natural populations. I'd have to get more specifics about his thoughts there. Then again, maybe I won't read his book now. I'll see. His original postulates were not always correct anyway, were they? But according to the NIH, seems he didn't know at that point about DNA. if I understood their description. And yes, I have questions about DNA too in reference to "heritable characteristics." :)
I can understand if you're getting tired of answering my continual questions although I thank you for your continuance, please do not feel obligated to answer, but I do appreciate it. Realizing this now could take a lifetime I can see why scientists can get very, very involved in the details and findings.

You are getting ahead of yourself, YoursTrue.

Of course, Darwin didn’t know about modern genetics and didn’t know about DNA. No one did. Not even Darwin’s contemporary, Gregor Mendel, the pioneer of modern genetics, knew nothing about DNA & RNA.

Science is about progresses and such knowledge occurred over time, meaning scientific knowledge are attained incrementally with discoveries. It applied to every Physical Sciences & Natural Sciences, every branches, fields & subfields, and not just in Evolutionary Biology.

And more importantly. No scientists - back then and now - are not expected to know about everything there are to know. And especially not especially not pioneers in their respective fields.

Darwin, as well as Alfred Russel Wallace, were two pioneers of Natural Selection. They got the theory of Evolution started, providing the general framework of evolution via Natural Selection. Neither of them knew anything about the other evolutionary mechanisms, like Genetic Drift, Mutations, Gene Flow & Genetic Hitchhiking…and I don’t know who were responsible for being pioneers in these other mechanisms.

What drive changes in Natural Selection, is the environments of the populations of organisms, so when the environments “changed”, eg geographical terrains, geological, natural resources, climate change, natural disasters, etc, in order to sustain the populations, the organisms must have some sorts of biological traits that are adaptable and advantageous to that environment, and the descendants would inherit that traits through reproduction, etc.

Darwin did attempt to understand the mechanism for heredity, during his research for his book The Variations Of Animals And Plants Under Domestication in 1868, called pangenesis.

Pangenesis was a hypothesis that didn’t succeed. The pioneer of genetics was Gregor Johann Mendel (1822 - 1884), a Silesian friar for the Order of St Augustine at St Thomas’ Abbey, who would later become its abbot in 1868. Silesia was part of Austrian empire at that time, it would later be part of Czech Republic. Mendel became a priest and join the order, largely because the church would pay for his university education, and he studied physics. When he joined the abbey in 1853, he became a school teacher. Between 1853 and 1863, he spent part of his free times, doing his own experiments on peas, recording his works with Natural History Society at Brno - Versuche über Pflanzenhybriden (Experiments On Plant Hybridization, 1865). Unlike Darwin’s works, Mendel received very little attention outside of Moravia, and was largely forgotten, until 1900, when his work was rediscovered, by Hugo de Vries and by Carl Correns.

My point is that while Mendel introduced heredity law through his paper and his discoveries with pea experiments, Mendel too, knew nothing about genes and DNA.

from what i understand, no one single person contributed to the DNA. For instance, nucleic acid were discovered in 1878, but it was Phoebus Levene who identified the molecular component of the DNA in 1927: the deoxyribose sugar, the 4 base molecules (nucleobases), and the phosphate group. However, his discovery didn’t lead to the importance of the DNA nucleotide…Levene didn’t know that the nucleobase are what contained the genetic information. It wasn’t until the early 1950s, that Francis Crick and James Watson that DNA contained genetic information about the organism.

So Darwin wasn’t the only one who who nothing about DNA in the 19th century.

Sciences take time to understand their discovery. Darwin wasnt wrong about (genetic) variations are responsible for evolution.

To give you another example. Michael Faraday was a pioneer of electromagnetic fields, but he too didn’t know EVERYTHING about EM fields. It was Faraday’s younger contemporary, James Clerk Maxwell who contributed to formulating the mathematical model of EM, the Maxwell’s Equations. And neither Faraday and Maxwell knew anything about electrons of atoms, or of radio waves, or of electronics. They also knew nothing about quantum mechanics.

You cannot Darwin for what he didn’t know at the time, anymore that you can blame Mendel or Faraday or Maxwell or Einstein or Planck, etc.

but the evolutionary biology is a fact, and Natural Selection have been modified and updated a number of times, where modern biologists have successfully incorporated genetics, molecular biology and other fields into the understanding of the theory of Evolution.
 
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