• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The Big Bang Theory is dead.

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Your post has no substance in it.

Even if that is true, and we all know that it is not, it still refutes your ignorant claims.
First without a first living creature atheism is refuted, and thus God Almighty exists and Created all things.

Only marginally correct. Without a first living creature no life would exist. But the rest of your post is just more ignorant irrational nonsense that you cannot support.
Evolutionists run and hide from the impossibility of abiogenesis.

No, first off no one has ever demonstrated abiogenesis to be impossible. They have only proven that it is impossible to educate dishonest science deniers.
Thus atheism and evolution and billions of years are all falsified forever.

Nope. Pixies could have magically poofed the first life into existence. Maybe it was from leprechaun pee, or even unicorn farts. They do poop rainbows after all. Billions of years exist no matter what. Unless you want to claim that God is a liar.

Why do you always claim that your God is a liar? I am curious about that. Can you explain to me why God thought that it was a good idea to lie by planting endless false evidence?
As to the recurrent laryngeal nerve, how does that make God an incompetent designer?
I keep forgetting that you do not understand any of the sciences above an elementary school level. The nerve goes through a huge detour from the brain to the larynx. For a giraffe that is about 15 feet. That is some grade A incompetence:

 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Evolution avoids this by starting the theory at the first replicators, rather then nothing. Evolution needs its own semi-divine beginning as though replicators "poofed" into existence, allowing the theory to begin. After that it is fine, but their t=0 does not sit quite right since we all know other things needed to happen first, based on the BB theory, starting with simple things like hydrogen and helium and even before that, quantum things. Biology skips too many physical evolution steps, which is an artifact of specialization; one hand does know what the other hand is doing. This explains why evolution still need dice and cards math, and can not just reason it through; uncertainty created by skipping early steps.

The BB theory does a similar thing starting with the primordial atom or the singularity for the BB; poof. Both theories have their own unspoken creator to get each theory jump started. I suppose that sort of suggests some unknown god affect. God was needed to set the ducks in a row with the initial "poofs". Those poofs took a lot of planning to create two good starting points that then allows science and logic to follow, even if it ignores how the before t=0, "poofs" happened. Other things also needed to happen first to reach each starting point for each theory, but are ignored or are unknown.

As an analogy, say you meet a new person, who is friendly, but they do not like to talk about themself. You try to figure them out through your daily contact, but you have no data of them before you first met. In a sense that first day of meeting will become a t=0 "poof." Obviously, what came before that arbitrary t=0, should have an impact of what you see today. However, since you are in the dark, your best theory can only start at their middle age, since this is where your hard data begins. You plot your curve and call the first day of meeting t=0, even though you know the real curve is actually starting much earlier at t=-X. Your theory cannot be exactly right, other than supporting the data connected to your own starting point bias.

A better theory will need to try to coax extra data from that private person, so you can start earlier. But this will shift the entire curve left, starting closer to t=-x on your original curve. The new shifted curve may not overlap the curve of biased expectations, in the same way, since it is now out of phase. This is what is happening. New data appears than does not allow the classic t=0 poof starting date, since other things need to happen first, but are not allowed, since that would shift the curve and make it less dogmatic.

It will throw a monkey wrench in the bureaucracy of science. Science is not just about finding truth in nature but is also about jobs, careers, management hierarchy, prestige, money, resources, etc, and large changes like changing the poof, are not easy to accommodate without secondary consequence to all those political things that are not science.
No, scientists have always solved what they can today and worked on the harder problems in the future. Abiogenesis is not "divine" at all. It is an area of ongoing research. So far no evidence of a god and it does not appear if one was needed.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Evolution avoids this by starting the theory at the first replicators, rather then nothing.
So what? All subjects that study the past (history, archaeology, etc.) start at appropriate points for the subject.

Evolution needs its own semi-divine beginning as though replicators "poofed" into existence, allowing the theory to begin.
Maybe they did but there are multiple credible scientific hypotheses. It's an area of ongoing research. There is no excuse for concluding it must be magic, just because we don't have an answer yet. That would be a blatant argument from ignorance fallacy.

The BB theory does a similar thing starting with the primordial atom or the singularity for the BB; poof.
Same thing applies. The BB theory isn't about the actual start. However, if we take GR seriously, the answer to why the space-time manifold exists, is not something we would look for at the start of the timelike past directions through it, even assuming the that it is finite in the past. You seem to be stuck in a pre-20th century view of time.

I suppose that sort of suggests some unknown god affect. God was needed to set the ducks in a row with the initial "poofs".
Another argument from ignorance fallacy. :rolleyes:
 

SavedByTheLord

Well-Known Member
Evolution doesn't need to avoid that which isn't within its scope.
Evolution no more "avoids" abiogenesis then germ theory "avoids" plate tectonics.

Different fields of study, different facts in different scopes to explain.

How many times does this have to be repeated?
So evolution not only avoids abiogenesis, it runs and hides from it.
Because abiogenesis is impossible.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
So evolution not only avoids abiogenesis, it runs and hides from it.
No. For the reasons that have been explained to you and you've ignored. It is you that is running away and hiding as you always do from anything that isn't in accordance with your blind faith. :rolleyes:

Because abiogenesis is impossible.
Nonsense. Assuming this because we don't yet have a tested theory is an argument from ignorance fallacy.
 

SavedByTheLord

Well-Known Member
No. Read what I wrote.

Different field of study, different set of facts to explain.
It's not even the same branch of science.
So, the fact the abiogenesis is impossible, there could not have been a first living creature or the first million of living creatures or any living creatures.
And the rock layers cannot represent very many millions of years of supposed evolution species because there were none.

This the only possibility is that God Almighty created all things.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
So, the fact the abiogenesis is impossible
Impossible? Just because we do not yet have a scientific explanation for something, does not make it untrue. Everyone agrees that at one point in the earths history, there was no life. Later, there was life. So everyone agrees that life came from non-life. The only disagreement is how. Since no group can prove their view, I think we should all extend a lot of tolerance to those who disagree with us.
 

SavedByTheLord

Well-Known Member
Impossible? Just because we do not yet have a scientific explanation for something, does not make it untrue. Everyone agrees that at one point in the earths history, there was no life. Later, there was life. So everyone agrees that life came from non-life. The only disagreement is how. Since no group can prove their view, I think we should all extend a lot of tolerance to those who disagree with us.
No
All physics, chemistry, biology, statistics, probability and logic proves it could never have happened anywhere in the universe for all of its supposed 13.7 billions years. Even if there were trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of years it could have never happened.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Of course biology proves God.
It is impossible for the first living to have come into being by natural processes. And without a fist living creature there are no living things.

as I have told before. The word “creature” is only defined as & equated with “animal”, which would leave out all plants, all fungi, all protists, all bacteria and all archaea.

Animals (or what you referred to as “creatures“) have only been around 700 million years ago, as far as they can tell from the available fossils discovered so far.

Plants are not creatures. Nor are fungi. Bacteria and archaea are unicellular microorganisms, they are also known collectively as “prokaryotes“, therefore they are not creatures.

For 2.7 or 2.8 billion years, only species of bacteria and species of archaea have existed in much of the Precambrian eras rocks. The earliest known fossils were found in fossilised stromatolites, those of bacteria, in Western Australia, dated to about 3.5 billion years.

if you are going to talk about Abiogenesis and origin of first life, then you are about 2.7 billion years too early, as I said before, creatures or animals don’t come into the picture, until much later, about 2.7 billion years later than the earliest bacteria.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
So evolution not only avoids abiogenesis, it runs and hides from it.
Because abiogenesis is impossible.
Such a foolish statement. You have the burden of proof now. But of course you will be the one that runs and hides.

To the contrary, every year abiogenesis looks more and more possible as scientists answer more and more questions.

The reason why they are two separate problems is because in the sciences one answers the questions one can at the time. Newton didn't write anything on relativity or the quantum world. Science was not advance enough to answer those questions yet. We are finally beginning to fully understand life now. So how could the problems of abiogenesis have been solved? Evolution is like Newtonian gravity. Far easier to observe and explain than quantum physics or abiogenesis.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
No
All physics, chemistry, biology, statistics, probability and logic proves it could never have happened anywhere in the universe for all of its supposed 13.7 billions years. Even if there were trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of years it could have never happened.
Where? Be specific. Find the articles in the primary literature that does so.
 

SavedByTheLord

Well-Known Member
Where? Be specific. Find the articles in the primary literature that does so.
Simple the Big bang violates cause and effect And sanity.
.It violates all conservation laws.
A first living creature is impossible by natural processes.
The very large specific codes of amino acids and nucleotides have odds against that there is no way for that to have come into being by natural processes anywhere in the entire universe for all of its supposed 13.7 trillion years. Even trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of years will not help. And this does not consider the other millions of atoms of specific element arranged in specific bonds in a specific 3D grid in a small windows of time,
And this is just one part in the case against evolution.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
So evolution not only avoids abiogenesis, it runs and hides from it.
Because abiogenesis is impossible.
Wow, where to begin. Evolution has nothing to do with Abiogenesis. Evolution is what life does once it exists. Abiogenesis is the process by which life comes into existence from non living matter.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
All physics, chemistry, biology, statistics, probability and logic proves it could never have happened anywhere in the universe for all of its supposed 13.7 billions years. Even if there were trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of years it could have never happened.
Yet another baseless, unargued assertion. Sow your working. What are your assumptions? It is literally impossible to come to a conclusion like this without making assumptions.

Simple the Big bang violates cause and effect
So does quantum mechanics (to some extent) and you test that every time you post; pretty much all modern electronics relies on it.

To the extent it exists, it is also a feature of space-time and if the BB was the start of that, looking for a cause for the start is foolish. If general relativity is true (and you test that every time you us GPS), then the space-time manifold includes time as a user dependent direction through it, not something it is subject to. It never started to exist at all, it 'just is', as a four-dimensional object.

The very large specific codes of amino acids and nucleotides have odds against that there is no way for that to have come into being by natural processes anywhere in the entire universe for all of its supposed 13.7 trillion years.
Again you are making endless massive assumptions. I keep on posting this, and abiogenesis deniers keep on ignoring it. This relatively simple RNA molecule can reproduce itself, in the right conditions, and so could start evolution:

NNNNNNUGCUCGAUUGGUAACAGUUUGAAUGGGUUGAAGUAU–GAGACCGNNNNNN​
(standard RNA coding plus 'N' which means 'don't care').​

You are also ignoring the fact that space could be vastly larger than the observable universe and might well even be infinite, which would mean, no matter how small a probability of something, it will happen somewhere.

So that's two major assumptions:
  1. That you know how complicated the first replicators were that would then be subject to natural selection.
  2. That you know the volume of the universe and hence the number of opportunities there were for life to have started.
Fell free to justify either.

(Edited for typo)
 
Last edited:

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Simple the Big bang violates cause and effect And sanity.
.It violates all conservation laws.
A first living creature is impossible by natural processes.
The very large specific codes of amino acids and nucleotides have odds against that there is no way for that to have come into being by natural processes anywhere in the entire universe for all of its supposed 13.7 trillion years. Even trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of years will not help. And this does not consider the other millions of atoms of specific element arranged in specific bonds in a specific 3D grid in a small windows of time,
And this is just one part in the case against evolution.
It may or it may not. There is no actual scientific law of cause and effect. It does not even exist at the quantum level where everything is a matter of odds.

And exactly how "very large" do you think that first strand of RNA had to be. Also you seem to have forgotten that your "specific codes" claim has been shown to be bull****.

Lastly you forgot that by taking on abiogenesis before you demonstrated one single flaw in evolution that you admitted evolution was true. There are consequences to moving the goalposts.
 

SavedByTheLord

Well-Known Member
It may or it may not. There is no actual scientific law of cause and effect. It does not even exist at the quantum level where everything is a matter of odds.

And exactly how "very large" do you think that first strand of RNA had to be. Also you seem to have forgotten that your "specific codes" claim has been shown to be bull****.

Lastly you forgot that by taking on abiogenesis before you demonstrated one single flaw in evolution that you admitted evolution was true. There are consequences to moving the goalposts.
The frist strand of RNA had to be at least 100,000 nucleotides long. Which means its proteome had to be at least 100,000 aminos.

The odds against the RNA is greater 8^100,000 to 1 or greater than 10^80,000 to 1.
The odds against its proteome is greater than 39^100,000 to 1 or greater than 10^160,000 to 1.
The combined odds against are then greater than 10^240,000 to 1.

Therefore a first living creature is impossible by natural processes.
The very large specific codes of amino acids and nucleotides have odds against that there is no way for that to have come into being by natural processes anywhere in the entire universe for all of its supposed 13.7 trillion years. Even trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of years will not help. And this does not consider the other millions of atoms of specific element arranged in specific bonds in a specific 3D grid in a small windows of time,
And this is just one part in the case against evolution.

And the LAW of cease and effect is universal.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
It may or it may not. There is no actual scientific law of cause and effect. It does not even exist at the quantum level where everything is a matter of odds.

And exactly how "very large" do you think that first strand of RNA had to be. Also you seem to have forgotten that your "specific codes" claim has been shown to be bull****.

Lastly you forgot that by taking on abiogenesis before you demonstrated one single flaw in evolution that you admitted evolution was true. There are consequences to moving the goalposts.
What I always find so amusingly idiotic about arguments like the one @SavedByTheLord is advancing is that they try to argue against a well-established scientific theory on the basis that it is scientifically flawed. As if they alone, with no knowledge of science, have spotted a fundamental scientific error in it - that all the scientists involved in developing the theory have somehow, unaccountably, missed!

Actually I suspect this nonsense is really designed for preaching to fellow creationists, i.e. people who likewise don't know any science and who are happy to be led by the nose - so long as the conclusion fits their preconceptions.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
The frist strand of RNA had to be at least 100,000 nucleotides long.
Baseless assertion. Show your working. Yet again, this can replicate:

NNNNNNUGCUCGAUUGGUAACAGUUUGAAUGGGUUGAAGUAU–GAGACCGNNNNNN*​
(standard RNA coding plus 'N' which means 'don't care').​

So any argument based on this assumption is nothing but a straw man. Constructing straw man versions of evolution and abiogenesis is one of the ways creationists basically lie to their followers.

You are also making an assumption about the absolute size of the universe (as opposed to the observable universe), which unknown and might well be infinite. This means that you can't know how many opportunities there are for something to happen. Hence no level of improbability would make something impossible.

And the LAW of cease and effect is universal.
No it isn't. For example, according to very well tested current physics, there no reason at all why one particular radioactive atom decays at one particular time.

You also require time for cause and effect, so looking for a cause for space-time is nonsensical.


* ETA: should have referenced this, it's from: Creation: The Origin of Life / The Future of Life by Adam Rutherford. It's called "R3C". More detail here: Evolution in an RNA World
 
Last edited:
Top