The biggest "plot hole" in Genesis...

[Jayhawker Soule]

his older book, "the early history of god" 2002-03, [second edition]

The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel (The Biblical Resource Series) by Mark S. Smith - Reviews, Discussion, Bookclubs, Lists

Very well. My copy is at home and, since I'm spending the weekend with a grandchild, I will not be able to check it before Sunday evening at the earliest, but I will certainly do so.

Meanwhile, why the interesting refusal to quote the passage as requested? Do you have the book or simply a web-based article referencing it?

Furthermore, even assuming that (a) you've actually read the book, and (b) it actually asserts what you claim, how does that support your petulant outburst:

"you should worry about your own opinion and knowledge since you got called on it and failed"​

I was quoting far more recent scholarship. Your inability to understand it is hardly my failure.

I look forward to the seeing the quoted passage.

 

[tumbleweed41]

go back and read the book, Smith goes into detail about Yahweh being the son of EL

your posted link/statement/quote mining didnt go into details about the 70 son,or lack of.

But Smith does a decent job with all this, and is highly respected. I dont agree with everything but for the most part, he does a amazing job

you should worry about your own opinion and knowledge since you got called on it and failed.

chapter 1 section 2 page 32 describes yahweh as els son

second edition

his older book, "the early history of god" 2002-03, [second edition]

The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel (The Biblical Resource Series) by Mark S. Smith - Reviews, Discussion, Bookclubs, Lists

Would you happen to have the text?

Reading through Chapter 1, Section 2, I am not finding your claim.
Perhaps I am missing it in my skimming.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Oh my!

 

[outhouse]

Would you happen to have the text?

Reading through Chapter 1, Section 2, I am not finding your claim.
Perhaps I am missing it in my skimming.

is it the second edition?

here is page 32, dont skim, read

The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel - Mark S. Smith - Google Books

 

[outhouse]

Very well. My copy is at home and, since I'm spending the weekend with a grandchild, I will not be able to check it before Sunday evening at the earliest, but I will certainly do so.

Meanwhile, why the interesting refusal to quote the passage as requested? Do you have the book or simply a web-based article referencing it?

Furthermore, even assuming that (a) you've actually read the book, and (b) it actually asserts what you claim, how does that support your petulant outburst:

"you should worry about your own opinion and knowledge since you got called on it and failed"
​

I was quoting far more recent scholarship. Your inability to understand it is hardly my failure.

I look forward to the seeing the quoted passage.

nothing in scholarships have changed regarding EL being Yahwehs father, you failed, made a bad call being zealous with worrying about what I have or have not read.

its your poor attitude that got you in trouble here.


try and focus on the material or question at hand, helping to further the knoweldge instead of failing at picking on a messenger.



what I stated stands, and your refutation backs this common kowledge

 

[tumbleweed41]

is it the second edition?

here is page 32, dont skim, read

The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel - Mark S. Smith - Google Books

Text please.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Never mind. I see you are taking one paragraph out of context with the rest of the chapter.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

nothing in scholarships have changed regarding EL being Yahwehs father, you failed, made a bad call being zealous with worrying about what I have or have not read.

its your poor attitude that got you in trouble here.


try and focus on the material or question at hand, helping to further the knoweldge instead of failing at picking on a messenger.

:biglaugh:

This is becoming bizarre. Let's see ...

• You wrote:

  The Hebrew/Christian god Yahweh, prior to taking on wholly monotheistic attributes in the 6th century BCE, was a part of the Canaanite pantheon in the pre-Babylonian captivity period. Archeological evidence reveals that during this time period the Israelites were a group of Canaanite people. Yahweh was seen as a war god, and equated with El.

  But being equated with El is not at all the same as being the son of El.
• You continued:

  invoking Yahweh, El and Baal, and two include the phrases "Yahweh of Samaria and his Asherah" and "Yahweh of Teman and his Asherah."

  But when we follow your Yahwey link we read ...

  Yahweh, however, was not a Canaanite god, and modern scholars see him originating in Edom, the region south of Judah.[2][3] The goddess Asherah may have been Yahweh's consort in the earliest period. Originally the main god of the Iron Age kingdoms of Israel and Judah, worship of Yahweh alone (monotheism) became entrenched in Judaism in the exilic and Persian periods.

• And the above point is re-emphasized in Smith's latest work where he insists ...

  A fair reading of the very difficult evidence would suggest that Yahweh was a god secondarily imported into the highlands of Israel from the south (Edom/Paran/Teiman/Seir in Deuteronomy 33:2, Judges 5:4, Psalm 68:8, 18, and Habakkuk 3:3, 7) and that was identified at some point with the indigenous Canaanite and early Israelite god El. [pp. 96, 97]

• And still you bluster:

  nothing in scholarships have changed regarding EL being Yahwehs father, you failed, made a bad call being zealous with worrying about what I have or have not read.

You seem hopelessly confused. Have you considered reading any of these books?

 

[outhouse]

Never mind. I see you are taking one paragraph out of context with the rest of the chapter.

How so?

it flat states in Deut 32: 8-9 the bible portrays El as Yahwehs father

"cast Yahweh in the role in one of the sons of El"

 

[tumbleweed41]

How so?

it flat states in Deut 32: 8-9 the bible portrays El as Yahwehs father

"cast Yahweh in the role in one of the sons of El"

As I said, out of context.

This passage presents an order in which each deity received its own nation. Israel was the nation that Yahweh received. Italso suggests that Yahweh, originally a warrior-god from Sinai/Paran/Edom/Teiman, 199
was known separately from El at an early point in early Israel.
200
Perhaps due to trade with Edom/Midian, Yahweh entered secondarily into the Israelite highland religion. Passages such as Deuteronomy 32:8-9 suggest a literary vestige of the initial assimilation of Yahweh, the southernwarrior-god, into the larger highland pantheism, headed by El; other texts point to Asherah (El’s consort) and to Baal and other deities as members of this pantheon. In time, El and Yahweh were identified, while Yahweh and Baal co-existed and later competed as warrior-gods. As the following chapter (section 2) suggests, one element in this competition involved Yahweh’s assimilation of language and motifs originally associated with Baal.One indication that Yahweh and El were identified at an early stage is that there are no biblical polemics against El. At anearly point, Israelite tradition identified El with Yahweh or presupposed this equation.
201
It is for this reason that the HebrewBible so rarely distinguishes between El and Yahweh.
202
The development of the name El
(’ēl)
into a generic noun meaning“god” also was compatible with the loss of El’s distinct character in Israelite religious texts. One biblical text exhibits the assimilation of the meaning of the word
’ēl

The Early History of God. Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel



But please, do go on.

 

[outhouse]

As I said, out of context.
The Early History of God. Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel



But please, do go on.

your reaching is laughable. You have comprehensive issues here. and you didnt even post where it says El as the role of Yawhehs father. "quote mining"

You are the one taking it out of context. Mark Smith flat states on page 32

"The original god of Israel was El"

"This fact would suggest that El was the original chief god of the group named Israel"


even your own post reflects El as the primary deity when yahweh recieved his own nation

This passage presents an order in which each deity received its own nation. Israel was the nation that Yahweh received

this is the part above where El gives Yahweh his son a nation

was known separately from El at an early point in early Israel.

above showing yahweh was seperate from El.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Speaking of quote mining.

BTW, the quote i supplied appears directly after the verse in the book.

 

[outhouse]

Speaking of quote mining.

BTW, the quote i supplied appears directly after the verse in the book.

quote mining was fine, not including the relevant text is another

taking it out of context is a mistake

maybe this will help with your comprehensive issues, backing the fact Smith claims yahweh as Els son

Mark Smith: Yahweh as El’s Son & Yahweh’s Ascendency « Lehi's Library


[FONT=e986606f81ec676e047f8220#980800]Mark Smith: Yahweh as El’s Son & Yahweh’s Ascendency[/FONT]


Here Yahweh in effect is asked to assume the job of all gods to rule their nations in addition to Israel. Verse 6 addresses the gods as “the sons of Elyon,”

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

maybe this will help with your comprehensive issues, backing the fact Smith claims yahweh as Els son

Mark Smith: Yahweh as El’s Son & Yahweh’s Ascendency « Lehi's Library

I didn't think he actually read the book.

 

[tumbleweed41]

outhouse,

After this book came up in another thread a while back, I downloaded it to my Kindle.
I have read the book, in it's entirety.
Your limited quote mining of passages that supposedly support your position ignores the entirety of the book, much less the chapter.

For instance,

The original god of Israel was El. This reconstruction may be inferred from two pieces of information. First, the name of Israel is not a Yahwistic name with the divine element of Yahweh, but an El name, with the element, *’ ēl
. This fact would suggest that El was the original chief god of the group named Israel.
196
Second, Genesis 49:24-25 presents a series of El epithets separate from the mention of Yahweh in verse 18 (discussed in section 3 below). Yet early on, Yahweh is understood as Israel’s god in distinction to El. Deuteronomy 32:8-9 casts Yahweh in the role of one of the sons of El, here called
‘elyôn:
When the Most High
(‘elyôn)
gave to the nations their inheritance,when he separated humanity,he fixed the boundaries of the peoplesaccording to the number of divine beings.
198
For Yahweh’s portion is his people,Jacob his allotted heritage

This is followed by the portion I quoted earlier.
While the author of the Deuteronomy verse equates Yahweh as a son of El, Mark Smith explains how this was a mid-point from two separate Gods to the eventual merging of El and Yahweh into one God.

My advice to you is when quoting "Biblical Scholars", quit looking for what you think supports your ideas, and read the entire scholarship.

 

[outhouse]

outhouse,

After this book came up in another thread a while back, I downloaded it to my Kindle.
I have read the book, in it's entirety.
Your limited quote mining of passages that supposedly support your position ignores the entirety of the book, much less the chapter.

For instance,
This is followed by the portion I quoted earlier.
While the author of the Deuteronomy verse equates Yahweh as a son of El, Mark Smith explains how this was a mid-point from two separate Gods to the eventual merging of El and Yahweh into one God.

My advice to you is when quoting "Biblical Scholars", quit looking for what you think supports your ideas, and read the entire scholarship.

You still dont have a clue do you?

Smith explains quite clearly how the two deities are seperated and independant of each other, and then explains how they eventually came together. He also explains their relationship before talking about what your stating when they slowly became one deity.



I dont have a position here. Its common knowledge Yahweh is the son of El and that early Israelites worshipped a family of gods. And before that there was El as a father of deities in other cultures previous to Israelites

Do you even know what your arguing here??????????????????????????????????????


is it your position El and Yahweh have always been one? if not what is their relationship? Are you stating the early mythology didnt follow a family of deities???

or did you just jump in helping J not understanding what we were debating, which more then anything, is J wanting me to read more books instead of pulling information off the net. whether im right or wrong ?

 

[tumbleweed41]

Its common knowledge Yahweh is the son of El and that early Israelites worshipped a family of gods. And before that there was El as a father of deities in other cultures previous to Israelites

Read the book.

 

[outhouse]

Read the book.

ive read this section and understand it well, the only current debate is over your comprehensive skills and or miscommunication due to you jumping in half way in a conversation.

either way its hard to tell from what little codescending information you supply.

Do you deny at one time El was viewed as Yahwehs father ???????


despite the biblical passages that make this claim found in deut and psalms???

* Psalm 82:1: Elohim has taken his place in the assembly of EL, in the midst of the elohim He holds judgment.
* Psalm 29:1: Ascribe to Yahweh, O sons of EL, ascribe to Yahweh glory and strength.
* Psalm 89:6: For who in the skies can be compared to Yahweh, who among the sons of EL is like Yahweh,

 

[tumbleweed41]

ive read this section

I thought so.

and understand it well,

I have my doubts about that.

the only current debate is over your comprehensive skills and or miscommunication due to you jumping in half way in a conversation.

Kind of like reading one section of an entire book, then claiming you understand it?

either way its hard to tell from what little codescending information you supply.

Do you mean the quotes from the section of the book you understand so well?

Do you deny at one time El was viewed as Yahwehs father ???????

At one time Yahweh is described as a son of Elyôn, and as is explained in the book how that process came about.

 

[gnostic]

I have never heard of "plot hole".

Do you mean pot hole?

If do mean the former (plot hole), can please define what it mean?