The biggest "plot hole" in Genesis...

[MarkOfCain]

It depends on the connotation intended; probably anavah ...

... but none of the connotations include selective reading or bending the text to conform to one's presuppositions.

Does it include the auto-assumption of others' "selective reading or bending the text to conform to one's presuppositions"?

My motivation behind this debate is to spark debate, of course share my opinions, and ideally acquire new information - which I already have.

What is your motive?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Does it include the auto-assumption of others' "selective reading or bending the text to conform to one's presuppositions"?

My motivation behind this debate ...

I was not referring to you. Whine less ...

 

[Skwim]

The fact that such effort would be invested in researching Jewish scripture while assiduously avoiding Jewish text is worth noting.

I didn't avoid it.

I couldn't read it.

It was in Hebrew.

So I ignored it.

​

 

[MarkOfCain]

I was not referring to you. Whine less ...

Something about planks, dust and eyes leaps to mind

Nevertheless, all in good fun - thanks for joining in.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I didn't avoid it.

I couldn't read it.

It was in Hebrew.

So I ignored it.

​

No, you never considered it.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

And again, for those who foolishly hope to escape the dreaded Documentary Hypothesis by claiming that Genesis 1 was speaking of oodles and oodles of folks preceding the advent of Adan & Eve, Genesis 3:20 is more than a little problematic:

• The man named his wife Eve, because she was the mother of all living. (NRSV)
• And the man called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. (Hertz)
• The man named his wife Eve, because she was the mother of all the living. (JPS)
• And the human called his woman's name Eve, for she was the mother of all that lives, (Alter)
• The human called his wife's name: Havva/Life-giver! For she was the mother of all the living. (Fox)

Like it or not, Genesis 2 presents Adam and Eve as Father and Mother of the human race ... all of it. :yes:

 

[MarkOfCain]

Like it or not, Genesis 2 presents Adam and Eve as Father and Mother of the human race ... all of it. :yes:

I'm honestly curious then - what is your take on why Cain was afraid to be cast out - away from his family?

And who did he marry?

Not being facetious. I honestly want to know the Jewish perspective about this.

Thanks...

-MOC

 

[Skwim]

No, you never considered it.

You're right, and I stand corrected. It was The Greek versions I couldn't read. The two Jewish Bibles, which I have since found, use "humankind."

 

[outhouse]

the term you're actually looking for is henotheism, not polytheism.

actually no, both would be better. with only a brief period of henotheism which as tumbleweed will point out is, polytheism.

polytheistic is what almost ever major scholar and encyclopedias use as a term for early Israelites

 

[outhouse]

That's highly interesting to me. I'm going to research the sources you've listed in a later post on this.

Are these drawings of Yahweh authentic from the period?

Thanks

MOC

800 BC ish

 

[outhouse]

Oh, and how is the claim that "Yahweh was seen as a war god, and equated with El" evidence that El was seen as the father of YHWH?

quit playing games

you know as well as I do the whole 70 sons of El


here argue with the encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh

In the earliest stage Yahweh was one of the seventy children of El

 

[tumbleweed41]

The mighty Wiki has spoken.

Might as well end this debate right here.

 

[Awoon]

Check out this book
The Mysteries of Creation : The Genesis Story: Rocco A. Errico: 9780963129239: Amazon.com: Books

 

[outhouse]

The mighty Wiki has spoken.

Might as well end this debate right here.

the 70 sons of El is common knowledge., there is no debate about Israelites worshipping a family of gods


and your no one to challenge wiki

 

[InChrist]

And hypothetically assuming that Cain already had a "sister-wife" (incestuous, but still)... that still doesn't rationalize Cain's fears. The only people on Earth, supposedly, were his parents and possibly unnamed siblings. In all cases, immediate family - who wouldn't have been very likely to kill him.



MoC

According to the scriptures all humans are of one blood descended from Adam and Eve. The OT and the NT affirm this:
And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their pre-appointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings Acts 17:26

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—Romans 5:12

And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 1 Corinthians 15:45

The laws against incest were not given until the time of Moses, so before that there was nothing wrong with Cain marrying a sister or close relative.


The scriptures indicate that Cain and Abel were around for a while before the murder of Abel because Genesis 4; says: And in the process of time it came to pass that Cain brought an offering of the fruit of the ground to the LORD. In Genesis 5:3, information is given that Adam was 130 years old when Seth was born and Eve saw him as a replacement for Abel. It is feasible that from Cain’s birth to Abel’s death a hundred years or more may have occurred allowing ample time for other children of Adam and Eve to marry and have descendants, especially since God had said, “Be fruitful and multiply” Gen. 1:28


I think it is very likely that Cain feared family members who cared about Abel and would kill him for murdering someone who was also their relative.

 

[MarkOfCain]

The laws against incest were not given until the time of Moses, so before that there was nothing wrong with Cain marrying a sister or close relative.

As an interesting side-note, same goes for murder, or the requirement for sacrifices/offerings.

And yet God spoke to Cain before he killed Abel, saying to the effect of "sin crouches at the door, but you must master it".

So apparently there was some form of law - unoffically perhaps.

And there are also the laws of nature... which present genetic problems when it comes to incest.

Yes, if God can allegedly create a man from dust, I'm sure he can intervene "biologically" where needed as well.

But still... something about the necessity brother-sister love just kind of seems to contradict intelligent design.

The creation story is a tough pill to swallow on many levels for people trying to reconcile modern knowledge and ancient tradition and "make it work". Bending is required. It takes pure faith to "get there", IMO.

Just my $0.02

-MOC

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The mighty Wiki has spoken.
Might as well end this debate right here.

Oh ... the agony of defeat! :run:

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I'm honestly curious then - what is your take on why Cain was afraid to be cast out - away from his family?
And who did he marry?
Not being facetious. I honestly want to know the Jewish perspective about this.

First, there exists a plethora of Jewish perspectives, so I'll simple offer my view.

Torah - which I view as an evolved, remarkable human effort - is many things, including brief, issue oriented pericope, splotches of etiology, more extensive folk history, and superb meta-narrative. I doubt that either the story teller or his audience were at all concerned with how well the Cain/Able tale flowed from that which came before. This concern, and the creative rationals engendered by it, were left to those later generations who chose to take these tales as literal, holy biographical writ.

In a nomadic culture wherein such things as family, clan, chesed, and hospitality were items of paramount importance, it was valuable enough oral tradition to effectively paint this tail of the First Crime, insist that God holds us to be our brothers' keeper, and note that His justice was not to be tainted by those (presumably future offspring of Adam and Eve - Sarna) who might feel free to extract blood vengeance. Later, these lessons/principles would serve well as efforts were unfolding to congeal and sustain a brit-centered tribal confederation soon to be known as Israel.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

So apparently there was some form of law - unoffically perhaps.

Is homicide [generally] wrong because it is [generally] against the law? Or,
is homicide [generally] against the law because it is [generally] wrong?

Note ...

Hebrew has several other words for sin beyond khata, each with its own specific meaning. The word pesha, or "trespass", means a sin done out of rebelliousness. The word aveira means "transgression". And the word avone, or "iniquity", means a sin done out of moral failing. The word most commonly translated simply as "sin", khata, literally means "to go astray." Just as Jewish law, halakha provides the proper "way" (or path) to live, sin involves straying from that path. [- wiki]

... khata is the term found in the Cain/Able story.

 

[MarkOfCain]

First, there exists a plethora of Jewish perspectives, so I'll simple offer my view.

Torah - which I view as an evolved, remarkable human effort - is many things, including brief, issue oriented pericope, splotches of etiology, more extensive folk history, and superb meta-narrative. I doubt that either the story teller or his audience were at all concerned with how well the Cain/Able tale flowed from that which came before. This concern, and the creative rationals engendered by it, were left to those later generations who chose to take these tales as literal, holy biographical writ.

In a nomadic culture wherein such things as family, clan, chesed, and hospitality were items of paramount importance, it was valuable enough oral tradition to effectively paint this tail of the First Crime, insist that God holds us to be our brothers' keeper, and note that His justice was not to be tainted by those (presumably future offspring of Adam and Eve - Sarna) who might feel free to extract blood vengeance. Later, these lessons/principles would serve well as efforts were unfolding to congeal and sustain a brit-centered tribal confederation soon to be known as Israel.

Interesting. I would generally agree with this - oral tradition, more of a fable that somehow become (to many) historical fact.