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The biggest "plot hole" in Genesis...

BSM1

What? Me worry?
Mark, I believe you have fallen into the age old trap of thinking Adam was the first man God created. The first chapter of Genesis clearly states that God created mankind before he created Adam. The second chapter of Genesis says that God "took a man..." and place him in the Garden. The verses do not say that this man, Adam, was the first man.The fifth chapter of Genesis clearly states that "...mankind, male and female" existed outside the Garden of Eden. Ergo, Cain probably had many women to choose from when he went mate-hunting.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Well if you know better or more than that source from whence my information about the meaning of "Adam" was derived, educating my ignorance ...
From whence? :D

So, we have access to some beautiful and highly informed translation efforts reflecting superb skill and decades of cummulative scholarship. I'm thinking, for example, of folks such as Alter, Fox, and the people behind the JPS and NRSV, along with the commentaries of Sarna, Plaut, Berlin and others. Just where did you find a preference for the rendering: "Corporeal One"?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
IMO, reflective of struggle between ariculturalists and pastoralists during the spread of agriculture in the middle east.

The idea that Cain, Adam & Eve were the only people (even when seen thru the lens of Genesis) is not accurate. See Gen 5:4


exactly

and the original audience knew this and its exactly how it was undrestood

Allegory
 

outhouse

Atheistically
There are many strong arguments pointing towards the book of Genesis as being more of an amalgamation of multiple creation legends, or at least a compilation/amalgamation of more than one variation.

(This is immediately noticeable in the first 2 chapters alone - which contains the first contradiction in the Bible, chronologically speaking. Namely, in chapter 1 mankind is created last - after all the land, plants, animals, etc. Then immediately in chapter 2, Adam is the first living organism created on earth, followed by vegetation, then animals, and then Eve. This is but one example.)

That in itself is not the biggest plot hole in Genesis, though.

In my opinion - what follows, is:
--------------------------------------

We all know the story of Cain & Abel. But for the sake of effect, I will paraphrase the story in abbreviated satire...

Cain is a farmer of the land, while Abel tends to the animals. For some reason, both of them feel compelled to offer sacrifices to Jehova, to win his favor.

(Even though offering sacrifices was not an official requirement or part of the mosaic law as yet... which was to be set in place and effected thousands of years later. Up to that point, the only law that seemed to exist was the ban on eating from the tree of life. Strange.)

So they each prepare a sacrifice, and offer it to Jehova. Abel's sacrifice pleases Jehova, while Cain's offering does not. (I guess Jehova prefers animal sacrifice over a pile of grain. Come to think of it... I'm not much of a vegan myself)

So out of jealousy, Cain strikes down Abel in a field, and so becomes the world's first murderer. Jehova confronts him on this, and Cain is cast out of Eden.

Cain immediately expresses fear about what will happen to him, saying: "I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me".

And this, folks, is where things really get interesting.

"But the Lord said to him, “Not so; anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the Lord put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. So Cain went out from the Lord’s presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden."

Shortly thereafter, we are told that Cain and his wife have their first child, whilst Cain is building the world's first city. A few generations pass, and already one of the great grandkids has figured out the whole metallurgy thing, and has fast-forwarded thousands of years (technologically speaking) by producing bronze tools and weaponry :shrug:.

There's just one little problem with all this.

Cain was one of three people on Earth. The other two being Adam, and Eve.

And let's just reasonably assume that Eve wasn't the "swinging" type, spending one weekend with Adam, the other with... (need I say more?)

* Who exactly did Cain marry?
* Who was Cain afraid of - to the extend where Jehova had to mark him with a transferable curse?
* And why was he building a city (and with whom)?

Keep in mind that Adam & Eve don't have another child (Seth) until Adam is 120 years old, after which they are said to have had other sons & daughters.

So - according to literal interpretation - Cain would literally have the earth to himself, because at this point he was the only child of the primordial humans, Adam & Eve.

Even if there were, hypothetically, other unmentioned siblings at that time - none of them were cast out from Eden. Only Cain.

And hypothetically assuming that Cain already had a "sister-wife" (incestuous, but still)... that still doesn't rationalize Cain's fears. The only people on Earth, supposedly, were his parents and possibly unnamed siblings. In all cases, immediate family - who wouldn't have been very likely to kill him.

This little "slip" has massive ramifications.

Let's briefly explore them:
------------------------------

Scenario 1: The creation story is geo-specific, and refers to the Genesis of a nation (Hebrew/Hyksos) in a localized area, rather than the entire universe. Thus, Cain's banishment would have essentially been exile to a foreign territory, with different "Gods" (rulership).

Scenario 2: The creation story is metaphorical, where the characters embody ideologies or otherwise abstract associations. Adam & Eve are, perhaps, the representation of the first conscious humanoids who "ate the knowledge of the Gods", and then became conscious of themselves (thus feeling naked).

They were then driven from "Eden" - the lifestyle of simply living in the garden, wandering and eating as needed, and instead were "cursed" and thus transitioned into agricultural society (which would allow for larger populations, and stability).

The friction between Cain & Abel could be symbolic of rivalry between herdsmen and farmers of distant antiquity. Thus, the creation story is a collection of "echoes" from the distant past, using metaphorical figures to preserve our early ancestors as they transitioned from hunting/gathering to building static civilization, and eventually progressing technologically.

Scenario 3: Genesis is to be taken literally, but is alarmingly incomplete - missing entire sections of history that has either been lost, purposely omitted, or somehow misinterpreted in its present form.

-------------------------------------

This is just one of several such plot holes, but it is perhaps the most obvious, and unavoidable "hiccup" in Genesis, particularly for Young-Earthers and literalists.

What are your thoughts on this?

Can Cain's fears be rationalized- without resorting to vague assumptions or blind faith as a supporting arguments?

I'm eager to hear what others might have to say about this...

Cheers,

MoC


You are reading this "literally" to deep


it was intended as allegory and metaphors



you did get it right, that it was a compilation of many collections and redactions over centuries
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Mark, I believe you have fallen into the age old trap of thinking Adam was the first man God created. The first chapter of Genesis clearly states that God created mankind before he created Adam.
Please point out where "The first chapter of Genesis clearly states that God created mankind before he created Adam." Thank you.
Genesis 1

King James Version

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

 
Mark, I believe you have fallen into the age old trap of thinking Adam was the first man God created. The first chapter of Genesis clearly states that God created mankind before he created Adam. The second chapter of Genesis says that God "took a man..." and place him in the Garden. The verses do not say that this man, Adam, was the first man.The fifth chapter of Genesis clearly states that "...mankind, male and female" existed outside the Garden of Eden. Ergo, Cain probably had many women to choose from when he went mate-hunting.

Finally, some additional perspective without a healthy dose of condescension...

You're right, Gen 1 only mentions "mankind", and the Gen 5 summary similarly doesn't exclude other people from existing (particularly Gen 5:1-2)

This does provide Biblical basis for Adam as - perhaps - the first "enlightened man", with whom Jehova makes first (documented) contact, but not necessarily the very first man.

Thanks for adding to the debate constructively.

-MoC
 
Please point out where "The first chapter of Genesis clearly states that God created mankind before he created Adam." Thank you.

I'll let BSM1 respond to this in more detail, but IMO I think his point was that Adam isn't mentioned, period, in Gen 1, only "mankind, male & female".

Gen 2 seems to be another vantage point, zooming in on the specific characters, Adam & Eve.

Again, it's an argument of silence, "evidence by omission" - which is admittedly not the strongest case.

But that goes for both sides of either position - they both rely on arguments of silence.

I don't think we can (scripturally) go further with this debate, without involving Genesis texts from other nearby cultures.
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
The real question though, IMO, is why Cain was fearful of being harmed, once OUTSIDE Eden. Obviously scripture is ambiguous on the details, but it doesn't specifically mention that anyone else (siblings) was also cast out, along with Cain.

1. Apparently, Cain was born after--not before A&E's eviction:

Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.​

Cain's fear was justified by the knowledge of other humans living outside of A&E's household.

Genesis 4:14 Surely You have driven me out this day from the face of the ground; kI shall be lhidden from Your face; I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond on the earth, and it will happen that anyone who finds me will kill me.”​

If he felt there were no other humans, the last part of this passage would make no sense. Although speculative, Cain may have even witnessed some of his siblings leave the nest sort of speak.

It implies that he was a lone wanderer.

2. The terms for fugitive and vagabond in the Hebrew do not imply solitude no more than they do in English. The Hebrew term for alone or by himself is transliterated "levadov" which is not found in this passage. One can be a fugitive and wanderer within a populated environment, right?

Were other humans created from "dust" or "ribs" as Adam and Eve - perhaps Cain's mate? It's all possible, but also from an argument of silence

3. If Gods intention was to populate the earth in the same manner as Adam, what need would there be for Him to instruct A&E to be fruitful and multiply?

That's the problem, though. Both perspectives rely on an argument of silence.

4. Not all arguments from silence are illogical. If the Genesis account is taken literal, which i believe is God's intention, we can safely assume there were additional humans which were most likely A&E's many other children and descendants that may have decided to leave their father and mother's household (Gen 2:24) and start their own, as God instructed (Gen 1:28)
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
4. Not all arguments from silence are illogical. If the Genesis account is taken literal, which i believe is God's intention, we can safely assume there were additional humans ...
And if your assumption concerning God's intention is wrong, the house of cards collapses ... :yes:
 
Responses below in red:

1. Apparently, Cain was born after--not before A&E's eviction:
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.​
Cain's fear was justified by the knowledge of other humans living outside of A&E's household.
Genesis 4:14 Surely You have driven me out this day from the face of the ground; kI shall be lhidden from Your face; I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond on the earth, and it will happen that anyone who finds me will kill me.”​
If he felt there were no other humans, the last part of this passage would make no sense. Although speculative, Cain may have even witnessed some of his siblings leave the nest sort of speak.

Cain was certainly born post-eviction, but they were still in Eden, just not the "Garden". However, the passage depicting Cain's fear is something I was focusing on in the opening argument.

Undoubtedly, this fear is justified - there must have been a population of other humans on Earth, or else those fears are pointless.

However, again, it's only an assumption that the other humans are his unnamed siblings who MAY have left the nest. This is not something the text appears to imply. Once again, we have reached the argument derived from silence.



2. The terms for fugitive and vagabond in the Hebrew do not imply solitude no more than they do in English. The Hebrew term for alone or by himself is transliterated "levadov" which is not found in this passage. One can be a fugitive and wanderer within a populated environment, right?

Precisely


3. If Gods intention was to populate the earth in the same manner as Adam, what need would there be for Him to instruct A&E to be fruitful and multiply?

Fair point, but perhaps all men "from dust" had similar instructions. This would actually provide for a stronger biological "life base" and would prevent the need for incest.

But again, we've both reading in between the lines and simply putting forward "could be" possibilities.


4. Not all arguments from silence are illogical. If the Genesis account is taken literal, which i believe is God's intention, we can safely assume there were additional humans which were most likely A&E's many other children and descendants that may have decided to leave their father and mother's household (Gen 2:24) and start their own, as God instructed (Gen 1:28)

Agreed, several silent arguments, or evidence based on "it wasn't NOT mentioned" are potentially logical. It's just that the possibilities are endless and based on our own opinions.

If we go by the literal text, there is no mention of other siblings until after Seth is born.


However, as BSM1 brought up, Gen 1 does POTENTIALLY infer that "mankind, male & female" may have preceeded the creation of Adam, specifically.

This, so far, is the argument I'm seeing that provides plausible, scripturally-backed basis to justify Cain's fear of wandering into the wilderness, away from the primordial cradle of Adam & Eve's family.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I'll let BSM1 respond to this in more detail, but IMO I think his point was that Adam isn't mentioned, period, in Gen 1, only "mankind, male & female".

Gen 2 seems to be another vantage point, zooming in on the specific characters, Adam & Eve.

Again, it's an argument of silence, "evidence by omission" - which is admittedly not the strongest case.

But that goes for both sides of either position - they both rely on arguments of silence.

I don't think we can (scripturally) go further with this debate, without involving Genesis texts from other nearby cultures.
Hmm. I checked the following Bibles and none of them use the word "mankind" in Genesis 1.
New International Version
New Living Translation
English Standard Version
New American Standard Bible
GOD'S WORD ® Translation
King James Version
Douay-Rheims Bible
American King James Version
American Standard Version
Bible in Basic English
Darby Bible Translation
English Revised Version
World English Bible
And if BSM1's Bible happens to "clearly [state] that God created mankind before he created Adam" it's hardly a unanimous statement, and from what I can see, pretty much an exception.
 

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
There are many strong arguments pointing towards the book of Genesis as being more of an amalgamation of multiple creation legends, or at least a compilation/amalgamation of more than one variation.

(This is immediately noticeable in the first 2 chapters alone - which contains the first contradiction in the Bible, chronologically speaking. Namely, in chapter 1 mankind is created last - after all the land, plants, animals, etc. Then immediately in chapter 2, Adam is the first living organism created on earth, followed by vegetation, then animals, and then Eve. This is but one example.)

That in itself is not the biggest plot hole in Genesis, though.

In my opinion - what follows, is:
--------------------------------------

We all know the story of Cain & Abel. But for the sake of effect, I will paraphrase the story in abbreviated satire...

Cain is a farmer of the land, while Abel tends to the animals. For some reason, both of them feel compelled to offer sacrifices to Jehova, to win his favor.

(Even though offering sacrifices was not an official requirement or part of the mosaic law as yet... which was to be set in place and effected thousands of years later. Up to that point, the only law that seemed to exist was the ban on eating from the tree of life. Strange.)

So they each prepare a sacrifice, and offer it to Jehova. Abel's sacrifice pleases Jehova, while Cain's offering does not. (I guess Jehova prefers animal sacrifice over a pile of grain. Come to think of it... I'm not much of a vegan myself)

So out of jealousy, Cain strikes down Abel in a field, and so becomes the world's first murderer. Jehova confronts him on this, and Cain is cast out of Eden.

Cain immediately expresses fear about what will happen to him, saying: "I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me".

And this, folks, is where things really get interesting.

"But the Lord said to him, “Not so; anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the Lord put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. So Cain went out from the Lord’s presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden."

Shortly thereafter, we are told that Cain and his wife have their first child, whilst Cain is building the world's first city. A few generations pass, and already one of the great grandkids has figured out the whole metallurgy thing, and has fast-forwarded thousands of years (technologically speaking) by producing bronze tools and weaponry :shrug:.

There's just one little problem with all this.

Cain was one of three people on Earth.
The other two being Adam, and Eve.

And let's just reasonably assume that Eve wasn't the "swinging" type, spending one weekend with Adam, the other with... (need I say more?)

* Who exactly did Cain marry?
* Who was Cain afraid of - to the extend where Jehova had to mark him with a transferable curse?
* And why was he building a city (and with whom)?


Keep in mind that Adam & Eve don't have another child (Seth) until Adam is 120 years old, after which they are said to have had other sons & daughters.

So - according to literal interpretation - Cain would literally have the earth to himself, because at this point he was the only child of the primordial humans, Adam & Eve.

Even if there were, hypothetically, other unmentioned siblings at that time - none of them were cast out from Eden. Only Cain.

And hypothetically assuming that Cain already had a "sister-wife" (incestuous, but still)... that still doesn't rationalize Cain's fears. The only people on Earth, supposedly, were his parents and possibly unnamed siblings. In all cases, immediate family - who wouldn't have been very likely to kill him.

This little "slip" has massive ramifications.

Let's briefly explore them:
------------------------------

Scenario 1: The creation story is geo-specific, and refers to the Genesis of a nation (Hebrew/Hyksos) in a localized area, rather than the entire universe. Thus, Cain's banishment would have essentially been exile to a foreign territory, with different "Gods" (rulership).

Scenario 2: The creation story is metaphorical, where the characters embody ideologies or otherwise abstract associations. Adam & Eve are, perhaps, the representation of the first conscious humanoids who "ate the knowledge of the Gods", and then became conscious of themselves (thus feeling naked).

They were then driven from "Eden" - the lifestyle of simply living in the garden, wandering and eating as needed, and instead were "cursed" and thus transitioned into agricultural society (which would allow for larger populations, and stability).

The friction between Cain & Abel could be symbolic of rivalry between herdsmen and farmers of distant antiquity. Thus, the creation story is a collection of "echoes" from the distant past, using metaphorical figures to preserve our early ancestors as they transitioned from hunting/gathering to building static civilization, and eventually progressing technologically.

Scenario 3: Genesis is to be taken literally, but is alarmingly incomplete - missing entire sections of history that has either been lost, purposely omitted, or somehow misinterpreted in its present form.

-------------------------------------

This is just one of several such plot holes, but it is perhaps the most obvious, and unavoidable "hiccup" in Genesis, particularly for Young-Earthers and literalists.

What are your thoughts on this?

Can Cain's fears be rationalized- without resorting to vague assumptions or blind faith as a supporting arguments?


I'm eager to hear what others might have to say about this...

Cheers,

MoC


Really? That's your plot hole?

One thing I'll say is there is no "plot hole" since there is no plot. The Adam and Eve story is an allegory meant to teach the culture that accepts it an important truth about itself.
 
Hmm. I checked the following Bibles and none of them use the word "mankind" in Genesis 1.
New International Version
New Living Translation
English Standard Version
New American Standard Bible
GOD'S WORD ® Translation
King James Version
Douay-Rheims Bible
American King James Version
American Standard Version
Bible in Basic English
Darby Bible Translation
English Revised Version
World English Bible
And if BSM1's Bible happens to "clearly [state] that God created mankind before he created Adam" it's hardly a unanimous statement, and from what I can see, pretty much an exception.

From NIV:

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
 
Really? That's your plot hole?

One thing I'll say is there is no "plot hole" since there is no plot. The Adam and Eve story is an allegory meant to teach the culture that accepts it an important truth about itself.

Says who? You?

Millions of people believe it literally.

So in that perspective, yes, it is a plot hole.

Your (condescending) perspective is irrelevant to this debate, because it's based on the supposed fact that Genesis is an allegory, which is an entirely different matter.

-MOC
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Hello MarkofCain! Welcome.

Yeah! Interesting! Skwim printed off Genesis 1, and the key verses show:-

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea................... etc

It does read (in this translation) as if Man is a term for a whole race of 'men'. And the use of 'third person plural' in 'let them have dominion....' does seem to support your point that God made a whole mass of men, and later took one them, Adam, and placed him in Eden.

Forgive me for saying that I do believe that Genesis is allegory, and that the whole description is in metaphor, but the above point does seem to throw a slightly different angle onto that story.

I like it...... for what that's worth to you.... but if you posted this thread to go into battle with creationists who take it all literally, you'll probably have 'not many' to argue with. You'll just have to be in contentious-agreement with most of us 'metaphor' supporters!

All the best.......
 
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