The biggest "plot hole" in Genesis...

[outhouse]

At one time Yahweh is described as a son of Elyôn, and as is explained in the book how that process came about.

and as I suspected, you didnt understand what we were debating.

J just wanted me to read, which I had done so before.


But since you actually agree with me, I dont know what your even arguing, because what you posted above is all I ever stated

 

[tumbleweed41]

At one time Yahweh is described as a son of Elyôn, and as is explained in the book how that process came about.

and as I suspected, you didnt understand what we were debating.

J just wanted me to read, which I had done so before.


But since you actually agree with me, I dont know what your even arguing, because what you posted above is all I ever stated

No, what you stated was;

The father deity was always EL, the father of Yahweh...

And as is stated in the referenced book, this was not always so, but was a part of the process of uniting the Yahweh and El beliefs.

 

[outhouse]

No, what you stated was;


And as is stated in the referenced book, this was not always so, but was a part of the process of uniting the Yahweh and El beliefs.

Stop it, your getting rediculous.



the father deity was always El, the father of yahweh


what you missed the word "was" is that your problem?


do you really want to claim I dont think they compiled deities into one?







Not only that, Yahweh was redacted in the bible to take on all El's passages, under monotheism. So the father deity written in the bible in places is El and his attributes.

El is still the father deity despite being redacted out.

 

[tumbleweed41]

the father deity was always El, the father of yahweh

Read the book.

 

[outhouse]

Read the book.

I have read most of it


you know the context i was speaking, and El was always the father deity in early Israelite deity worship.

 

[outhouse]

And me and J's debate you found yourself a terrible need to jump into, had to do with El as Yahweh's father.

and that is over

 

[tumbleweed41]

Buddy, it's an open debate.

But your right, it''s over.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

ive read this section and understand it well, ...

No, you do not, and that fact is (or should be) pathetically obvious to anyone who has followed this thread. Arrogant quote-mining is a pathetically poor substitute for reading and thinking, outhouse.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I have read most of it

It's not nice to fib ... :no:

 

[outhouse]

No, you do not, and that fact is (or should be) pathetically obvious to anyone who has followed this thread. Arrogant quote-mining is a pathetically poor substitute for reading and thinking, outhouse.

really

you got called on it, and failed. \\ El was viewed as yahwehs father, and Smith says the same thing.

deal with it, its common knowledge


what is really pathetic, is your not debating the topic at hand, you only want to deal with my knowledge. And I have avoided your little game. Your not all that knowledgeable to debate with such certainty, not compared to some authors I work with. You do talk down to people just because you have read a few books in the past. You are not a author, or teacher, or scholar, and from what ive seen while you do possess a decent amount of knolwedge, your no authority.

the real sad thing is what you do know, you dont share or debate. And you take your view as a solid "only" view, despite certain biases I have noticed from your work.

You would probably be a great guy if you debated topics instead of constantly being so rude to all posters you "think" you have knowledge over.

 

[outhouse]

It's not nice to fib ... :no:

I dont need to fib, I like most of Smith, but dont agree with everything.

sad thing is, you have included yourself to all this, while taking my side, but finding the need to argue about what I have no idea since you dodge most of my questions

 

[Bodhitharta]

Genesis 2 King James Version (KJV)
2 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

How are you seeing man being created at different times?

 

[Unification]

There are many strong arguments pointing towards the book of Genesis as being more of an amalgamation of multiple creation legends, or at least a compilation/amalgamation of more than one variation.

(This is immediately noticeable in the first 2 chapters alone - which contains the first contradiction in the Bible, chronologically speaking. Namely, in chapter 1 mankind is created last - after all the land, plants, animals, etc. Then immediately in chapter 2, Adam is the first living organism created on earth, followed by vegetation, then animals, and then Eve. This is but one example.)

That in itself is not the biggest plot hole in Genesis, though.

In my opinion - what follows, is:
--------------------------------------

We all know the story of Cain & Abel. But for the sake of effect, I will paraphrase the story in abbreviated satire...

Cain is a farmer of the land, while Abel tends to the animals. For some reason, both of them feel compelled to offer sacrifices to Jehova, to win his favor.

(Even though offering sacrifices was not an official requirement or part of the mosaic law as yet... which was to be set in place and effected thousands of years later. Up to that point, the only law that seemed to exist was the ban on eating from the tree of life. Strange.)

So they each prepare a sacrifice, and offer it to Jehova. Abel's sacrifice pleases Jehova, while Cain's offering does not. (I guess Jehova prefers animal sacrifice over a pile of grain. Come to think of it... I'm not much of a vegan myself)

So out of jealousy, Cain strikes down Abel in a field, and so becomes the world's first murderer. Jehova confronts him on this, and Cain is cast out of Eden.

Cain immediately expresses fear about what will happen to him, saying: "I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me".

And this, folks, is where things really get interesting.

"But the Lord said to him, “Not so; anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the Lord put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. So Cain went out from the Lord’s presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden."

Shortly thereafter, we are told that Cain and his wife have their first child, whilst Cain is building the world's first city. A few generations pass, and already one of the great grandkids has figured out the whole metallurgy thing, and has fast-forwarded thousands of years (technologically speaking) by producing bronze tools and weaponry .

There's just one little problem with all this.

Cain was one of three people on Earth. The other two being Adam, and Eve.

And let's just reasonably assume that Eve wasn't the "swinging" type, spending one weekend with Adam, the other with... (need I say more?)

* Who exactly did Cain marry?
* Who was Cain afraid of - to the extend where Jehova had to mark him with a transferable curse?
* And why was he building a city (and with whom)?

Keep in mind that Adam & Eve don't have another child (Seth) until Adam is 120 years old, after which they are said to have had other sons & daughters.

So - according to literal interpretation - Cain would literally have the earth to himself, because at this point he was the only child of the primordial humans, Adam & Eve.

Even if there were, hypothetically, other unmentioned siblings at that time - none of them were cast out from Eden. Only Cain.

And hypothetically assuming that Cain already had a "sister-wife" (incestuous, but still)... that still doesn't rationalize Cain's fears. The only people on Earth, supposedly, were his parents and possibly unnamed siblings. In all cases, immediate family - who wouldn't have been very likely to kill him.

This little "slip" has massive ramifications.

Let's briefly explore them:
------------------------------

Scenario 1: The creation story is geo-specific, and refers to the Genesis of a nation (Hebrew/Hyksos) in a localized area, rather than the entire universe. Thus, Cain's banishment would have essentially been exile to a foreign territory, with different "Gods" (rulership).

Scenario 2: The creation story is metaphorical, where the characters embody ideologies or otherwise abstract associations. Adam & Eve are, perhaps, the representation of the first conscious humanoids who "ate the knowledge of the Gods", and then became conscious of themselves (thus feeling naked).

They were then driven from "Eden" - the lifestyle of simply living in the garden, wandering and eating as needed, and instead were "cursed" and thus transitioned into agricultural society (which would allow for larger populations, and stability).

The friction between Cain & Abel could be symbolic of rivalry between herdsmen and farmers of distant antiquity. Thus, the creation story is a collection of "echoes" from the distant past, using metaphorical figures to preserve our early ancestors as they transitioned from hunting/gathering to building static civilization, and eventually progressing technologically.

Scenario 3: Genesis is to be taken literally, but is alarmingly incomplete - missing entire sections of history that has either been lost, purposely omitted, or somehow misinterpreted in its present form.

-------------------------------------

This is just one of several such plot holes, but it is perhaps the most obvious, and unavoidable "hiccup" in Genesis, particularly for Young-Earthers and literalists.

What are your thoughts on this?

Can Cain's fears be rationalized- without resorting to vague assumptions or blind faith as a supporting arguments?

I'm eager to hear what others might have to say about this...

Cheers,

MoC

The seven day creation is of the human only.

We are all Adam(conscious- higher self) and all Eve(subconscious- lower self) and have a snake that talks(thinking carnal mind/reptillian brain) that gets in our way of experiencing oneness with God.

"Knowledge" of good and evil yet Adam "knowing" his wife automatically gets turned into "sex" .... Yet rather it's the conscious impregnating the subconscious with a seed of knowledge(child). It's all about one human and "knowledge."

Sure, a sacrifice of an animal is more important. The human is the carnal animal which needs sacrificed. . WITHIN. Sacrificing ones carnality.

All fictional characters with Cain and Abel being nothing more than seeds of knowledge impregnated from the conscious into the subconscious and stored in the brain. These seeds expand and run rampant, creating a network of knowledge stored in the brain. Good knowledge destroys bad knowledge and bad knowledge destroys good knowledge. A child in scripture is a seed of knowledge that grows in the brain. Nothing is literal. The husband and wife becoming one is when the west and east unite (west hemisphere of brain and east hemisphere of brain (conscious and subconscious, higher self and lower self) ... Divine Union of husband and wife. Eve is the mother of all living because that's what gives birth to our reality and own unique experience. ... All in our HEADS.

 

[sojourner]

The seven day creation is of the human only.

We are all Adam(conscious- higher self) and all Eve(subconscious- lower self) and have a snake that talks(thinking carnal mind/reptillian brain) that gets in our way of experiencing oneness with God.

"Knowledge" of good and evil yet Adam "knowing" his wife automatically gets turned into "sex" .... Yet rather it's the conscious impregnating the subconscious with a seed of knowledge(child). It's all about one human and "knowledge."

Sure, a sacrifice of an animal is more important. The human is the carnal animal which needs sacrificed. . WITHIN. Sacrificing ones carnality.

All fictional characters with Cain and Abel being nothing more than seeds of knowledge impregnated from the conscious into the subconscious and stored in the brain. These seeds expand and run rampant, creating a network of knowledge stored in the brain. Good knowledge destroys bad knowledge and bad knowledge destroys good knowledge. A child in scripture is a seed of knowledge that grows in the brain. Nothing is literal. The husband and wife becoming one is when the west and east unite (west hemisphere of brain and east hemisphere of brain (conscious and subconscious, higher self and lower self) ... Divine Union of husband and wife. Eve is the mother of all living because that's what gives birth to our reality and own unique experience. ... All in our HEADS.

Yikes.

 

[Unification]

Yikes.

How did you acquire salvation? Did you become pregnant with a baby boy named Jesus or were seeds of good knowledge and wisdom and understanding of God planted in your mind/brain?

 

[Unification]

Yikes.

Did those seeds grow and grow and grow into more good knowledge and much good fruit within you, destroying all of the evil knowledge and bad fruit within you, or did you simply walk up to a few little children you thought were evil and kill them, proceed to walk home into your backyard and uproot every weed and rotten fruit in your garden?
Why would you follow a God who murderers and kills literal children? Thou shall not murder, yet you teach that God does.. And to literal infants and children. . When it's the destruction of evil knowledge, desires, thoughts within the human brain, mind, and heart.
You're trying to save yourself sir with your own knowledge and wisdom, just surrender and give up... Let the Spirit teach you. Let go, friend... Experience the freedom. Meditate on the Lord. Just let the defeat happen at the place of the skull. Defeat the devil... The carnal mind.

 

[Unification]

Yikes.

Hosea 4:6King James Version (KJV)
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

 

[sojourner]

How did you acquire salvation? Did you become pregnant with a baby boy named Jesus or were seeds of good knowledge and wisdom and understanding of God planted in your mind/brain?

The creation myths have little to do with the salvation of the individual. The metaphysical interpretations you're ascribing to these texts are simply incongruent with the theological milieu of the progenitors of the stories. Your interpretations are pretty, but they're not realistic based upon a strict exegesis of the texts.

 

[sojourner]

You're trying to save yourself sir with your own knowledge and wisdom, just surrender and give up... Let the Spirit teach you. Let go, friend... Experience the freedom. Meditate on the Lord. Just let the defeat happen at the place of the skull. Defeat the devil... The carnal mind.

No. I'm not trying to do that at all. What I'm trying to do is treat the texts honestly.

 

[sojourner]

Hosea 4:6King James Version (KJV)
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Knowledge isn't the same thing as misapprehension through eisegesis.