The Binding of Satan

[viole]

No. Satan is around and very much in business.1 Peter 5:8

First there will be an abyss where Satan will be imprison but that will happen when the fifth trumpet sounds. Revelation 9:11

After Satan is imprisoned, his sentence will start - 1,000 years. The sixth trumpet will sound, something will happen and then the last trumpet will sound - the Son of Man together with his angels will gather those who will be saved - those who have died in Christ and those who are alive in Christ. 1 Corinthians 15:52

Those are the general plans.

The first trumpet Revelation 8:7 has yet to be sounded.
If we are lucky, we might be witnesses to these events.

All Satan has to do to ruin the plan is to do the exact contrary of what is written in the prophecy, preventing thereby its happenstance. Assuming he can read, of course, and that he has a IQ of at least 80.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Earthling]

If that "lone religious figure" actually performed the miracles that are claimed in the bible, I'ld say it would have been the talk of the century.

Well, what makes you think that the miracles he performed were believed by anyone then any more than they are now? And what historical value is that? There are, I think, what, seven historical references to Jesus, pretty much saying his followers were a minor nuisance. On the other hand tow thousand years later we are talking about Jesus, not the people who were of historical significance in his time. Those are forgotten. Bible critics at one time questioned the existence of Pontius Pilate. Then there was discovered some secular reference which silenced the critics. Pilate isn't the only example of this.

But if that "lone religious figure" was just a quack like there were hundreds, thousands, around at that time (and after it, even today), then it would be just a footnote only mentioned because he succeeded in gathering some more following then his quack peers.

The evidence seems to be pointing to the latter, rather then the first.

Huh. That's about the most grossest underestimation I've ever seen.

 

[Timothy Spurlin]

No. I didn't say that.

You said it was subjective.

 

[Earthling]

You said it was subjective.

I said evidence is subjective, yes, but that would apply to evidence in a court of law, in my mind, in your mind, in a science book, in the Bible.

The uninformed atheist always cries for evidence, thinking that there must not be any. Then refuse the Bible as evidence but accepting some spurious secular tomb as if it were infallible. Or worse, science. For example, David said that in his time the average lifespan was, what? 70 or 80 years? More if you are fortunate. But science says people in David's time lived only to be about 40 or so. Why? Maybe because they assume things then had to be worse than in Europe during the dark ages? I don't know, you tell me. I believe David because he was there.

 

[Timothy Spurlin]

I said evidence is subjective, yes, but that would apply to evidence in a court of law, in my mind, in your mind, in a science book, in the Bible.

The uninformed atheist always cries for evidence, thinking that there must not be any. Then refuse the Bible as evidence but accepting some spurious secular tomb as if it were infallible. Or worse, science. For example, David said that in his time the average lifespan was, what? 70 or 80 years? More if you are fortunate. But science says people in David's time lived only to be about 40 or so. Why? Maybe because they assume things then had to be worse than in Europe during the dark ages? I don't know, you tell me. I believe David because he was there.

If all you have is subjective, then it's from your mind. Objective exist outside of the mind.
Why do theist claim to have evidence, but never produce it.
The Bible is the claim, not the evidence.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

This is an emotional statement. It's terms are also subjective.

Disagree.

First of all, what makes you think my god is "all loving and benevolent" and what do those terms even mean?

That's what I hear christians preach all the time.
Are you saying that you disagree?

Is the christian God you worship not loving, benevolent, etc?

Willing to allow those who would destroy mankind, and if possible, God's purpose for mankind, to just go ahead and do that?

Secondly, what is the "very embodiment of evil" and what does that mean?

Is Satan not evil?
Satan is a good entity?

Were we talking about Job? The war in heaven resulting in Satan being hurled down to earth? or the release of Satan from the abyss before his destruction and the destruction of his followers? All of these are Biblical teachings.

So, then the question is, why? What does it mean to his so called "children" which he loves so dearly. What, more importantly, would happen to them if he didn't allow Satan to be set loose?

would you hazard a guess?

I believe I was the one asking the questions. I'm not the christian here who believes any of this stuff, so I'm not sure why you are asking me about it...

I'm just saying....
The christian premise here is that god is just, loving, benevolent and that he cares about humans and wants them to be well.

And Satan, the devil, is evil, unjust and malicious and only cares about leading humans astray etc.

Are you agreeing so far? If not, what are you disagreeing with, exactly?
Again, you are the christian. You are the one who believes that this god and this devil are real - not me. I'm just going by what christians tell me.

So when I put these two premises together and then get told that god himself set satan loose on the earth....

That to me is like taking the worst imaginable pedophile rapist and setting him loose in a kindergarten, unsupervised.

That objectively doesn't sound like a very smart, loving or benevolent thing to do.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Well, what makes you think that the miracles he performed were believed by anyone then any more than they are now?

Now we are getting somewhere.
Why aren't they believed now, when people claim such things happen?
Why don't YOU believe them now, when people claim such things happening?

Why don't YOU believe people TODAY, that you can actually meet and talk to because they are actually still alive, who claim to have been eyewitnesses to such events, but for some reason you DO believe pretty much the same "testimony" from people that have been dead for 2000 years?

And what historical value is that? There are, I think, what, seven historical references to Jesus, pretty much saying his followers were a minor nuisance

To my knowledge, there are exactly ZERO historical contemporary references to Jesus. There are references to christians and Jesus might be referenced in that context, just like Hercules might be mentioned when talking about people that believed he was real. But to my knowledge, there are exactly zero reference to an actual historical Jesus.

On the other hand tow thousand years later we are talking about Jesus

Because a Roman emperor decided that all Romans were going to believe it.
We are also still talking about Ra, Thor, etc.

Bible critics at one time questioned the existence of Pontius Pilate. Then there was discovered some secular reference which silenced the critics. Pilate isn't the only example of this.

Pilate isn't claimed to be a supernatural deity.
I don't think it is surprising that the bible references real people and places.
Just like I, btw, wouldn't find it surprising either that there actually was a historical Jesus around which this whole religion got started. In fact I think that's quite likely.

How accurate his character is portrayed in the bible though.... I'm guessing not that accurate.

Huh. That's about the most grossest underestimation I've ever seen.

Why?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I said evidence is subjective, yes, but that would apply to evidence in a court of law, in my mind, in your mind, in a science book, in the Bible.

Bad evidence is subjective.
Good evidence is objective.

Then refuse the Bible as evidence

The bible is a collection of claims.

but accepting some spurious secular tomb as if it were infallible. Or worse, science

What tomb? And who is saying science is infallible?

For example, David said that in his time the average lifespan was, what? 70 or 80 years? More if you are fortunate. But science says people in David's time lived only to be about 40 or so. Why? Maybe because they assume things then had to be worse than in Europe during the dark ages? I don't know, you tell me.

Actual historical records, instead of religious beliefs and claims.
And why do you believe that during the dark ages in europe life expectancy was only around 40? Were you there? Do you know somebody that was?

I believe David because he was there.

No. You believe a religious story.

 

[Ellen Brown]

What objective evidence do you have that your god and satan are real?

Not going that direction with you.

 

[Timothy Spurlin]

Not going that direction with you.

So your saying you have no objective evidence?

 

[Timothy Spurlin]

No. Satan is around and very much in business.1 Peter 5:8

First there will be an abyss where Satan will be imprison but that will happen when the fifth trumpet sounds. Revelation 9:11

After Satan is imprisoned, his sentence will start - 1,000 years. The sixth trumpet will sound, something will happen and then the last trumpet will sound - the Son of Man together with his angels will gather those who will be saved - those who have died in Christ and those who are alive in Christ. 1 Corinthians 15:52

Those are the general plans.

The first trumpet Revelation 8:7 has yet to be sounded.
If we are lucky, we might be witnesses to these events.

How do you know Jesus didn't already come and gone?

 

[Ellen Brown]

So your saying you have no objective evidence?

I won't waste my breath with you.

 

[Timothy Spurlin]

I won't waste my breath with you.

ROFLMAO! Runaway scared of the truth.

 

[EtuMalku]

The war in heaven takes place in Revelation 12:5. Everything before that, including Jesus' death, mentioned at Revelation 5:9 takes place before the war in heaven.

No, I scoured that chapter and it is mentioned there, however the 'Time' this 'War' took place is not verified. If you have information otherwise, do let us know.

No we aren't.

Yes, we are.

Because Jesus existed in spirit form, as a spirit creature before and after coming to earth as a man. He is Michael, the arch angel.

Michael the Archangel is not Jesus. The non-Christian cult known as the Jehovah's Witnesses teach that they are the same. The Seventh Day Adventists teach the same; but Michael the Archangel is just that--an Archangel, and Jesus is not a created angel.

Jude 9:
"But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

The Lord Jesus would not have to call on the name of anyone else in order to rebuke the devil because the Lord Jesus is God in flesh. However, we see that Michael the Archangel said, "The Lord rebuke you," thereby demonstrating that he is not the Lord.

 

[Earthling]

If all you have is subjective, then it's from your mind. Objective exist outside of the mind.
Why do theist claim to have evidence, but never produce it.
The Bible is the claim, not the evidence.

Oh, this is fun! Ok, ok, ok, uhm . . . like this?

I think I understand, but . . . lets see you prove it! Can you prove objective evidence exists outside of your mind, or is it from your mind?

Huh?! You see there how I've run circles 'round you logically?! In the image above there is the possibility that with an x-ray the evidence becomes objective from subjective, but still, even without the x-ray the man who says his back hurts is telling the truth.

Okay . . . when you've wrapped your head around that, imagine an archaeological dig in which some clay tablets or cylinders or something is discovered relating to the period of King Nebuchadnezzar’s reign. A list of workers and captives in Babylon who were given provisions, including that of "Yaukin, king of the land of Yahud." Is that, as you say, the claim or the evidence? How can you prove this? Perhaps that it refers to Jehoiachin, the king of the land of Judah, helps? (2 Kings 25:27-30 / 1 Chronicles 3:17-18)

 

[Timothy Spurlin]

Oh, this is fun! Ok, ok, ok, uhm . . . like this?

I think I understand, but . . . lets see you prove it! Can you prove objective evidence exists outside of your mind, or is it from your mind?

Huh?! You see there how I've run circles 'round you logically?! In the image above there is the possibility that with an x-ray the evidence becomes objective from subjective, but still, even without the x-ray the man who says his back hurts is telling the truth.

Okay . . . when you've wrapped your head around that, imagine an archaeological dig in which some clay tablets or cylinders or something is discovered relating to the period of King Nebuchadnezzar’s reign. A list of workers and captives in Babylon who were given provisions, including that of "Yaukin, king of the land of Yahud." Is that, as you say, the claim or the evidence? How can you prove this? Perhaps that it refers to Jehoiachin, the king of the land of Judah, helps? (2 Kings 25:27-30 / 1 Chronicles 3:17-18)

The clay tablets would be objective evidence.

 

[MJFlores]

All Satan has to do to ruin the plan is to do the exact contrary of what is written in the prophecy, preventing thereby its happenstance. Assuming he can read, of course, and that he has a IQ of at least 80.

Ciao

- viole

Actually, the devil already accomplished his objective. Revelation 12:9

He is aware that his time is short Revelation 12:12

"Satan, who leads the whole world astray" and he will continue this deception until he is in prison
After his sentence for a thousand years, he will gather an army which will march throughout the entire earth Revelation 20:7-9

I think the people who have low IQs are humans.
Believe me right now he is successful. How many religions do we have today and how many denominations? - each of these have their own system of beliefs and "wisdom". James 3:15

 

[Timothy Spurlin]

Actually, the devil already accomplished his objective. Revelation 12:9

He is aware that his time is short Revelation 12:12

"Satan, who leads the whole world astray" and he will continue this deception until he is in prison
After his sentence for a thousand years, he will gather an army which will march throughout the entire earth Revelation 20:7-9

I think the people who have low IQs are humans.
Believe me right now he is successful. How many religions do we have today and how many denominations? - each of these have their own system of beliefs and "wisdom". James 3:15

How do you know which religion is the right one? How do you know which god is real?

 

[Timothy Spurlin]

No, I scoured that chapter and it is mentioned there, however the 'Time' this 'War' took place is not verified. If you have information otherwise, do let us know.

Yes, we are.

Michael the Archangel is not Jesus. The non-Christian cult known as the Jehovah's Witnesses teach that they are the same. The Seventh Day Adventists teach the same; but Michael the Archangel is just that--an Archangel, and Jesus is not a created angel.

Jude 9:
"But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

The Lord Jesus would not have to call on the name of anyone else in order to rebuke the devil because the Lord Jesus is God in flesh. However, we see that Michael the Archangel said, "The Lord rebuke you," thereby demonstrating that he is not the Lord.

What proof do you have that Angels exist?

All of Christiany is cults, each church is it's own cult.

 

[MJFlores]

How do you know Jesus didn't already come and gone?

Because if the Lord Jesus Christ already came and gone, we would be suffering the "woes" than the "trumpets"

The seven bowls of God's wrath are much much more severe than the trumpets. Seven bowls - Wikipedia

I believe the seven seals were long opened, the seventh was opened on Sep 1,1939.
The first trumpet still has to manifest itself Revelation 8:7
If the devastation of the first trumpet happened, it would be noticeable

The Lord Jesus Christ will "come and go" on the last [seventh] trumpet