The Binding of Satan

[EtuMalku]

What proof do you have that Angels exist?

All of Christiany is cults, each church is it's own cult.

I'm not making the claim angels exist, you're missing the point of the discussion.
Besides, how are you defining 'exist'?

 

[MJFlores]

How do you know which religion is the right one? How do you know which god is real?

If it holds the truth.
If it is a lie then it is not real and not the right one.

 

[Timothy Spurlin]

Because if the Lord Jesus Christ already came and gone, we would be suffering the "woes" than the "trumpets"

The seven bowls of God's wrath are much much more severe than the trumpets. Seven bowls - Wikipedia

I believe the seven seals were long opened, the seventh was opened on Sep 1,1939.
The first trumpet still has to manifest itself Revelation 8:7
If the devastation of the first trumpet happened, it would be noticeable

The Lord Jesus Christ will "come and go" on the last [seventh] trumpet

What proof do you have that the seventh seal was opened?

 

[Timothy Spurlin]

I'm not making the claim angels exist, you're missing the point of the discussion.
Besides, how are you defining 'exist'?

Objective evidence would be a good place to start.

 

[Timothy Spurlin]

If it holds the truth.
If it is a lie then it is not real and not the right one.

How do you determine which religion holds the truth? How do you know which one is a lie?

 

[MJFlores]

How do you determine which religion holds the truth? How do you know which one is a lie?

Ask yourself what is the truth to you?
Would you take your mama's word as the truth?
What is the truth?

 

[MJFlores]

What proof do you have that the seventh seal was opened?

Because at church we studied it and really pound on it [skeptical tests] before we are convinced.

It is like an oncoming typhoon - you know the forecast and the signs, even if the storm is yet to come.
Same is true with that.

Those who are not prepared are those who don't believe - and they become the statistics. - that is just an analogy.

 

[EtuMalku]

Objective evidence would be a good place to start.

There's no objective evidence that angels objectively exist, there's no objective evidence that anything regarding any Abrahamic faith objectively is true either.

Are you following the discussion now?

 

[EtuMalku]

Ask yourself what is the truth to you?
Would you take your mama's word as the truth?
What is the truth?

Truth is a subjective experience, and unique to each one of us. The only possible objective truth 'might' be mathematics, but that has been dabated as well.

 

[MJFlores]

Truth is a subjective experience, and unique to each one of us. The only possible objective truth 'might' be mathematics, but that has been dabated as well.

My truth is just my version
Your truth is similar but not the same as mine
The truth is something not all people could handle.
The truth hurts but will set you free.

 

[Timothy Spurlin]

Ask yourself what is the truth to you?
Would you take your mama's word as the truth?
What is the truth?

You are doing a tap dance. Playing word games. The truth is you don't know.

 

[Timothy Spurlin]

My truth is just my version
Your truth is similar but not the same as mine
The truth is something not all people could handle.
The truth hurts but will set you free.

More word games.

 

[Earthling]

[QUOTE="TagliatelliMonster, post: 6000414, member: 65929"That's what I hear christians preach all the time.
Are you saying that you disagree?

Is the christian God you worship not loving, benevolent, etc?

Willing to allow those who would destroy mankind, and if possible, God's purpose for mankind, to just go ahead and do that?

Is Satan not evil?
Satan is a good entity?

I believe I was the one asking the questions. I'm not the christian here who believes any of this stuff, so I'm not sure why you are asking me about it...

I'm just saying....
The christian premise here is that god is just, loving, benevolent and that he cares about humans and wants them to be well.

And Satan, the devil, is evil, unjust and malicious and only cares about leading humans astray etc.

Are you agreeing so far? If not, what are you disagreeing with, exactly?
Again, you are the christian. You are the one who believes that this god and this devil are real - not me. I'm just going by what christians tell me.

So when I put these two premises together and then get told that god himself set satan loose on the earth....

That to me is like taking the worst imaginable pedophile rapist and setting him loose in a kindergarten, unsupervised.

That objectively doesn't sound like a very smart, loving or benevolent thing to do.[/QUOTE]

What I'm trying to point out is that terms like all loving, benevolent, evil, are subjective terms. So trying to demonstrate your point by concluding that this or that behavior of God or Satan, on those terms is pointless because you may not agree with them as far as what is good and what isn't.

I gave you examples of when Satan was "released" upon man. Job, after the war in heaven when he is hurled to earth and again after his release from the abyss, so that answers the question of would God allow it. Now you have to understand why he would allow it and determine whether or not you would agree with him being loving. And you may not agree. You may think he's still a monster.

So here is the reason. This is according to the Bible, and I know you don't believe the Bible, but this is what it has to say.

When the angel later known as Satan questioned Jehovah's truthfulness in telling Adam that he would die Adam made a decision to accept that and decide for himself what was good and bad. This was a challenge to God's sovereignty that was then presented, not only to Adam but all of his decedents to follow and the angels in heaven as well. It basically raised the question "Can mankind (and therefore the spirit creatures as well) decide for themselves what is good and what is bad without God?"

Jehovah God decided that it was only fair for this question to be addressed fully. He could have just killed Adam and started all over but that wouldn't have been fair. It wouldn't have been justice, and it wouldn't have allowed the question to be addressed. So he stood back and allowed mankind to address it. So mankind was like a family of people who live in an environment where God doesn't interfere with their experience, the system of their independence without God. This is why God allows suffering, and, of course, Satan's influence.

God did make some adjustments in order to fix the situation if mankind should choose to do that, and he recorded this in the Bible so people could come to understand what is going on. Unfortunately, religion has transmogrified that to a great extent but the real meaning of it has always been available to mankind.

He made a nation, Israel, to produce the laws of that nation so the people could understand, and also to produce a way out. The Messiah.

Now, some people won't have the opportunity to hear that explanation from Jehovah so there will be a resurrection of those people who have no access to the Bible. Those people will be informed of the situation while Satan is imprisoned in the abyss. Then he will be released once more to give those people the opportunity to reject God and follow Satan. But to their destruction. Then, after Satan and his followers, angelic and human are destroyed, as they chose to be, mankind will have the opportunity to live forever without Satan, sickness, ageing, death, crime etc. and all of the suffering that Adam's sin brought about.

 

[Timothy Spurlin]

Because at church we studied it and really pound on it [skeptical tests] before we are convinced.

It is like an oncoming typhoon - you know the forecast and the signs, even if the storm is yet to come.
Same is true with that.

Those who are not prepared are those who don't believe - and they become the statistics. - that is just an analogy.

Who told you the seal was opened?

 

[EtuMalku]

My truth is just my version
Your truth is similar but not the same as mine
The truth is something not all people could handle.
The truth hurts but will set you free.

I'm pretty sure this is what 'subjective' means . . . which I already stated.
as far as hurting or setting you free . . . that sounds like a lot of mumbo-jumbo.

 

[Earthling]

Bad evidence is subjective.
Good evidence is objective.

But good and bad are subjective. They depend upon your own interpretation of what is good and what is bad.

The bible is a collection of claims.

Okay, then the question becomes, do those claims stand up to the objective evidence. Though, you will find that in life, not all things do. Some things you can't prove you but you have to have faith in. Like love, money, the rising of the sun.

What tomb? And who is saying science is infallible?

Some historical tomb aside from the Bible. And let's assume as an act of the purest optimism that no one is saying science is infallible.

Actual historical records, instead of religious beliefs and claims.

All historical records contain a great deal of myth, legends, half truths and lies, as well as religious beliefs and claims.

And why do you believe that during the dark ages in europe life expectancy was only around 40? Were you there? Do you know somebody that was?

No, I was simply asking a question regarding what basis scientific speculation had for concluding the lifespan during David's time was a great deal less than what David said it was.

No. You believe a religious story.

I believe what you dismiss as a religious story, out of ignorance, is actually true.

 

[MJFlores]

More word games.

I'm pretty sure this is what 'subjective' means . . . which I already stated.
as far as hurting or setting you free . . . that sounds like a lot of mumbo-jumbo.

If you are not searching the truth then how will you find it?

Only those who thirst for the truth, skeptical than pessimists are the ones who are successful.

 

[MJFlores]

Who told you the seal was opened?

We have a long way to go on this and that is off topic
and some guy would start a conversation with me about that being off topic

Innocence is bliss - I leave that to you.

 

[Earthling]

Now we are getting somewhere.
Why aren't they believed now, when people claim such things happen?
Why don't YOU believe them now, when people claim such things happening?

Well, people don't believe them now for the same reason they weren't likely to then. Because they are unbelievable. People are, generally speaking, just as superstitious today as they were then so all sorts of claims are made which no one believes and for good reason. They are most likely false.

Why don't YOU believe people TODAY, that you can actually meet and talk to because they are actually still alive, who claim to have been eyewitnesses to such events, but for some reason you DO believe pretty much the same "testimony" from people that have been dead for 2000 years?

Because the Bible explains that these supernatural occurrences were performed for a reason and that they would end.

To my knowledge, there are exactly ZERO historical contemporary references to Jesus. There are references to christians and Jesus might be referenced in that context, just like Hercules might be mentioned when talking about people that believed he was real. But to my knowledge, there are exactly zero reference to an actual historical Jesus.

I keep asking you what difference does it make? No history is infallible. If I showed you a reference to Jesus that was pretty specific that you may not have heard of, that mentions his brother by name, would you then accept Jesus was real? No! What's the point? It's moot. Forget about it. If you insist I can give you the seven or so historical references and you can dismiss them for whatever reason you like and we can move on. But why waste our time?

Because a Roman emperor decided that all Romans were going to believe it.
We are also still talking about Ra, Thor, etc.

Well, that's a surprisingly good point, but my point was we are not talking about the people who were contemporaries of Jesus and historically significant.

Pilate isn't claimed to be a supernatural deity.

Correct, but there's two things for a skeptic to consider there. 1. Whales and squid were once supernatural and 2. Science can't test the supernatural so you can't say for sure from a scientific perspective that God isn't real.

I don't think it is surprising that the bible references real people and places.
Just like I, btw, wouldn't find it surprising either that there actually was a historical Jesus around which this whole religion got started. In fact I think that's quite likely.

How accurate his character is portrayed in the bible though.... I'm guessing not that accurate.

Well . . . accurately, in my opinion, but transmogrified by religiosity.

 

[Earthling]

The clay tablets would be objective evidence.

Then why not the Bible? The clay tablets, discovered at the Gate of Babylon, confirm the Bible account in the scriptures I gave. Why would the clay tablets be objective and the Bible not?