The Book of Mormon

[linwood]

I'm supplying data. The only conclusion I drew from that data is that it's safe to say he didn't copy the Isaiah chapters word for word. This alone does not refute the possibility that he changed them around while copying.

Exactly my point.
It was never asserted that he copied anything in entirety other than individual verses.
You`re defending a point never made.

Thats known as a strawman DS and it has no place in this context.

Okay...but if using the same words is evidence for forgery, this then begs the question: what would an appropriate translation (without KJV) influences look like? Some were found at Qumran, I believe; anyone ever made a comparison to those?

it would be like whatever was written on Moronis golden plates and not like a text that was written centuries later.

I have a hard time believing that a translation that appeared totally different could be taken as evidence against a forgery. I doubt that's what you're saying, Linwood, so could you please give us an example of what the translation ought to look like, for Jospeh to not be a fraud?

I have no need to because yet again you attempt to change the debate.
I cannot know what the translation should have looked like because I have never had access to the Golden Plates.
It`s my assertion that no one ever had access to Moronis golden plates because they did not exist.

If they did exist it is highly unlikely that the tone, context, and verse structure of a text translated from reformed Egyptian(whatever that is) would be exactly the same as KJV english which is unique in itself for the time.
However what we find is what appears to be someone following their concept of KJV English in the BoM.

This is obvious to anyone not attending an LDS temple on a regular basis.

 

[linwood]

I have a question.

Has "reformed Egfyptian" ever been found to be used in Egyptian culture at any time?

 

[linwood]

Nevermind...

Those who have examined the position critically (including but not limited to linguists, archaeologists and opponents of Mormonism, eg: [1]) have commented on the Book of Mormon's claim to have been written with reformed Egyptian characters. Because there is no known archeaological, linguistic, or other evidence of the use of Egyptian writing in ancient America, some have suggested that the claims of the Book of Mormon regarding reformed Egyptian are implausible (or false). Mormon apologists have generally responded that the Book at least allows for, or suggests, that reformed Egyptian writing was solely used for writing on sacred plates, and that the choice of Egyptian for the scribal language of sacred plates is plausible in light of the statements in the Book of Mormon and the historic influence and development of Egyptian writing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_Egyptian

Reformed egyptian has never been seen anywhere other than a short transcript written by J.Smith himself.

It has never been found in any Egyptian or Hebrew dig.
It`s used no where other than Moronis Golden plates.

 

[linwood]

I don't know what this has to do with anything, but Wikipedia says Amarna was discovered in 1887.

Thats a bit dishonest, just a bit.
A large archeological find was uncovered in 1887 but Arman was known of well before .
According to Wikipedia at least 1714

1714 – Claude Sicard, a French Jesuit priest travelling through the Nile Valley, describes the first known boundary stela from Amarna.

1798-1799 – Napoleon's corps de savants prepare the first map of Amarna, subsequently published in Description de l'Égypte between 1821 and 1830.

1824 – Sir John Gardiner Wilkinson explores and maps the city remains.

1833 – The copyist Robert Hay and his surveyor G. Laver visit the locality and uncover several of the Southern Tombs from sand drifts, recording the reliefs. (The copies made by Hay and Laver languish largely unpublished in the British Library).

1843 and 1845 – The Prussian expedition led by Richard Lepsius records the visible monuments and topography of Amarna in two separate visits over a total of twelve days, employing drawings and paper squeezes. The results are ultimately published in Denkmäler aus Ægypten und Æthiopien between 1849 to 1913. Despite being somewhat limited in accuracy, the engraved Denkmäler plates nonetheless form the basis for scholastic knowledge and interpretation of many of the scenes and inscriptions in the private tombs and some of the Boundary Stelae for the remainder of the 19th century.

1887 – A cache of nearly 400 clay tablets inscribed in cuneiform are discovered by an Amarna woman, which are now known as the Amarna Letters.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amarna

 

[linwood]

Where did he get all the Egyptian proper names, most of which have only been discovered in Amarna and Elephantine, long after the Book of Mormon was published?

Again, a bit dishonest.

There used to be temples to Thutmose III and Amenhotep III on the island (Elephantine)prior to 1822, when they were destroyed by the Ottoman government, both were relatively intact at that time.

Both Elephantine and Amarna were well known archeological find before the BoM was written in 1830

 

[Katzpur]

Reformed egyptian has never...been found in any Egyptian or Hebrew dig.
It`s used no where other than Moronis Golden plates.

After all these posts, you finally got something right. :biglaugh:

 

[Katzpur]

Both Elephantine and Amarna were well known archeological find before the BoM was written in 1830

"Well known"? Could you be a bit more specific? So these were more or less household words back in 1830, I guess. And Joseph Smith's library continues to grow by leaps and bounds. :biglaugh:

 

[linwood]

And Joseph Smith's library continues to grow by leaps and bounds. :biglaugh:

I am not making any assertion about any name usage similar to those used in Elephantine or Amarna.

What I am doing is shedding light on an outright lie told by those who would defend their faith.

When one must fabricate evidence to defend their faith their faith is weak.

After all these posts, you finally got something right

Then perhaps you`d like to show how my assertions in this thread have been "wrong" so far?
Your input thus far is weak as well.

 

[linwood]

"Well known"? Could you be a bit more specific? So these were more or less household words back in 1830, I guess. And Joseph Smith's library continues to grow by leaps and bounds. :biglaugh:

Read the links I left, thats why I left them.

The level of "known" or "unkown" is not the issue here.
The issue is the assertion that they were "unknown" prior to the BoM is a lie or at best a convenient misunderstanding.

Since this lie has now been revealed you seek to change the debate once again to levels of "knowledge"

It is irrelevant and it`s a debate tactic that won`t work with me as DS can attest to.

 

[Katzpur]

Your input thus far is weak as well.

My input is actually almost non-existent. I just don't feel the need to try to convince you of something. I choose my battles, that's all. You and I both know that there is absolutely nothing that would make you reconsider your stance. I prefer to debate people who are at least marginally open-minded. I'm sure there are posters who don't mind having their beliefs insulted. I'm just not one of them. Offhand, I can't think of a single solitary reason why anyone would want to debate you. If DeepShadow wants to, that's fine with me. He obvious is a man of limitless patience.

 

[linwood]

My input is actually almost non-existent. I just don't feel the need to try to convince you of something.

Yet you have no problem injecting entirely unfounded statements with no intention of ever explaining them.
Understood.

I choose my battles, that's all. You and I both know that there is absolutely nothing that would make you reconsider your stance. I prefer to debate people who are at least marginally open-minded.

This is absolutely false.
There are many things that would change my stance on this topic.
Unfortunately they all require some type of evidence for which there appears to be none.

I'm sure there are posters who don't mind having their beliefs insulted. I'm just not one of them.

Please show me where I`ve insulted someones beliefs in this thread.
Stating someones faith is weak when it needs to be supported by lies, obfuscation, and enforced by creating strawman is not an insult.
It`s an obvious truth.

 

[jazzalta]

"...You are passing on the observations/views of others as your view. This is valid, I am doing the same thing. We are doing this to say "this is what resonates in my experience".. ..

Your purpose does not seem to be to obtain other observation points to enhance your experience; rather you seem to need the argument to re-inforce the conclusions you've already come to.

That is a state of no growth or non-evolving.

But, hey. . . . that's your choice to make.

BenJosh

I felt I had to respond to this. I have been a spiritual searcher for many years and have found that belonging to a specific and rigorous faith can in fact inhibit spiritual growth. I have been a member in both LDS and Catholic religions. It is my contention that demeaning other's beliefs is not a good thing, and that spiritual growth can come from sources other than organized religion. Arguing over the merit of the Book of Mormom serves no purpose when minds are already made up prior to any discussion.

EDIT: I would also add that humility can aid in any contentious debate. I go into any discussion with an open mind and am willing to accept that I may be wrong.

 

[mormonman]

This is absolutely false.
There are many things that would change my stance on this topic.

Obviously the truth won't.

 

[linwood]

Obviously the truth won't.

I haven`t seen any truth in this thread for the last few pages.
I`ve seen strawmen, obfuscation and outright untruths to defend a position.

Show me some truth.

 

[i believe in tranquility]

the problem I have with mormons is their racism and palygamy (however you spell it) beliefs.

Besides that they are your friendly neighbor! (little sarcaism)

 

[jonny]

the problem I have with mormons is their racism and palygamy (however you spell it) beliefs.

Besides that they are your friendly neighbor! (little sarcaism)

Gee, thanks. I'm neither racist nor polygamist.

 

[i believe in tranquility]

Gee, thanks. I'm neither racist nor polygamist.

well alot of the Book of Mormon teaches racism and polygamy...so i dont know man..


some questions while im here....

Do you beilve that Jesus is/was WHITE (as in caucasian)?

and

Do you beilve in what Jesus taught in the New Test?


i g2g to church right now..but post ill b back

 

[jonny]

well alot of the Book of Mormon teaches racism and polygamy...so i dont know man..

The Book of Mormon actually preaches AGAINST polygamy and elevates the Native Americans to being a chosen people of God. I don't think you know what you are talking about.

Alot of the Book of Mormon DOES NOT teach racism. In fact, the Book of Mormon says the following:

2 Nephi 26:33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.

Do you beilve that Jesus is/was WHITE (as in caucasian)?

Jesus probably looked Jewish.

Do you beilve in what Jesus taught in the New Test?

Yes. Every word.

i g2g to church right now..but post ill b back

I can hardly wait. You seem so educated in Mormonism.

If you are learning these things about Mormonism in church, I would seriously reconsider the church that you attend. The father of lies is Satan. If your pastor feels the need to lie about other religions in order to build up your faith, he ain't being influenced by Christ. Just my two cents on that issue. I am making an assumption, but it sounds like you've gone through a crash couse on Why Mormonism is a Cult recently. :sarcastic

 

[Buttercup]

Please forgive me if this point has been made....this thread is 20 pages and it's tough to read thru that much even though the topic interests me. And, I don't mean to offend any of the very kind LDS on the boards. I have just been curious about the plates for a long time and this is what is said about them. Please correct me if this information is not correct.

This is what wikipedia says about the golden plates from a critical viewpoint:

With the lack of physical evidence today, the Golden Plates remain solely a matter of faith, rather than an actual artifact or religous relic.

One criticism involves the discrepancy concerning the weight of the plates. If the plates were of pure gold, 60 pounds would be a very low estimate of its weight.

Dan Vogel writes:

A block of solid tin measuring 7 x 8 x 6 inches, or 288 cubic inches, would weigh 74.67 pounds. If one allows for a 30 percent reduction due to the unevenness and space between the plates, the package would then weigh 52.27 pounds. Using the same calculations, plates of gold weigh 140.50 pounds; copper, 64.71 pounds; a mixture of gold and copper, between 65 and 140 pounds. (Vogel, The Making of a Prophet, 600) Referring to William Smith's statement that the plates "had the appearance of gold," some have speculated that the metal of the plates was tumbaga, the name given by the Spaniards to a versatile alloy of gold and copper which could be "cast, drawn, hammered, gilded, soldered, welded, plated, hardened, annealed, polished, engraved, embossed, and inlaid."

Tumbaga can be treated with a simple acid like citric acid to dissolve the copper on the surface. What is then left is a shiny layer of 23-karat gold on top of a harder, more durable copper-gold alloy sheet. This process was widely used by the pre-Columbian cultures of central America to make religious objects.

Tumbaga plates of the dimensions Joseph Smith described would weigh between 53 and 86 pounds.

To date, no authentic metal plates have been found in North America that date to the Book of Mormon time frame.


The complete link:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Plates


[edit]

 

[jonny]

The first line sums up my thoughts on the matter - it is a matter of faith.