The brain and the eye

[The Sum of Awe]

A theist told me today that, "The brain and eye are so complex that even evolution over 4 billion years can't comprehend."

So I looked into it and the brain is very, very complex, along with the eye.

Now, if you are like many, you will say "Just because we don't understand something, doesn't mean God exists... The Greeks couldn't understand lightening and they made Zeus, although now we know it."

But it's not that we do not understand it, it's just that how is such a complex thing built in with us?

 

[Oneatatime]

Such people underestimate the power which natural selection can have under strong selective pressures.

 

[reve]

This is what this universe is like. It starts out quite simple but thyen after a few committee stages, a new chieif exec and board, policies, HR Department, Business Transformation Department, Internal external audit, finance, value for money, customer blah blah you end up with very complex organisms mostly unnecessary. We use a fraction of our brains and what exactly are we looking at with this expensive complex eye. It is like having a jet fighter in the drive.

 

[Oneatatime]

This is what this universe is like. It starts out quite simple but thyen after a few committee stages, a new chieif exec and board, policies, HR Department, Business Transformation Department, Internal external audit, finance, value for money, customer blah blah you end up with very complex organisms mostly unnecessary. We use a fraction of our brains and what exactly are we looking at with this expensive complex eye. It is like having a jet fighter in the drive.

We use a fraction of our brains? On what are you basing this claim? Granted some features of an organism persist because they are didn't to be removed through natural selection but the brain is an extremely energy demanding organ so I can't imagine that large portions of it would be retained under natural selection if it confered no selective advantage. Brain scans showing activity throughout the brain would also undermine your claim.

 

[PolyHedral]

We use a fraction of our brains? On what are you basing this claim?

He's actually correct, if you insert the key words he missed: at once. Activating all the structures of the brain at the same time would simply result in a seizure.

 

[Oneatatime]

He's actually correct, if you insert the key words he missed: at once. Activating all the structures of the brain at the same time would simply result in a seizure.

As he didn't he's wrong

 

[sandandfoam]

Do you think there's something interesting (if a bit odd) about the idea a 'we' standing behind our brains using a portion of them?

 

[outhouse]

Do you think there's something interesting (if a bit odd) about the idea a 'we' standing behind our brains using a portion of them?

we use most of our brain on a daily basis, the refference statement is not really correct.

one can develop parts of the brain that are not used if one chooses.

key word is develop

 

[Thief]

So this topic is under science versus religion?

It begins by pointing to misconception and then saying God doesn't exist?

True...a misconception doesn't help.
But to say God doesn't exist because someone made an error in what he believes?....no.

Just for fun.....I'm going to toss an idea in favor of error....

Jesus had a misconception.....'the eye is the light of the body'.....

Now..... does that mean .....God does not exist?
If the Son of Man can error...does that disprove God?

(careful...the angels will be watching this one)

 

[horizon_mj1]

There have been instances in which people use all areas of their brains. This in fact used to be the belief of the cause of schizophrenia. It is now known that the condition infects one area of the brain then spreads from there. Science has not yet refined full definitions for the specific activities for the entire brain.

 

[ejay286]

The processes of the evolution of the brain and eye are pretty well known.

Brain Evolution:
Here's a pretty nice book detailing brain evolution.
Amazon.com: Principles of Brain Evolution (9780878938209): Georg F. Striedter: Books

Though I'm sure you could find something on the internet that would tell you all you need to know.

Wikipedia actually has an entire page devoted to eye evolution.
Evolution of the eye - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is a beautiful, yet very simple, graphic showing how the eye evolved.

Lastly, here's a nice video detailing the evolution of the eye.

[youtube]sUjd8x-1xM0[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUjd8x-1xM0

There are many things we don't know about this world, but luckily, there are tons of things we do know. Don't always believe what someone tells you, do the research and you'll find yourself immersed in a wealth of knowledge.

 

[horizon_mj1]

Good info. I like the evolution of birds of prey's eyes (saw something on nat-geo or something like that channel). I am hoping that in brain research, it can be found how the synopsis fire and which goes where, etc. You are right, the more research that is done the more we crack the vault of knowledge.

 

[Im an Atheist]

A theist told me today that, "The brain and eye are so complex that even evolution over 4 billion years can't comprehend."

So I looked into it and the brain is very, very complex, along with the eye.

Now, if you are like many, you will say "Just because we don't understand something, doesn't mean God exists... The Greeks couldn't understand lightening and they made Zeus, although now we know it."

But it's not that we do not understand it, it's just that how is such a complex thing built in with us?

Well I suppose we could use the rebuttal and say how could an entity create such a variety of complex processes?

It all comes down to evolution and what we need are brain and eyes for. They have been fine tuned and adapted to our environment. Hence, bats and moles eye sight is poor because it live/hunts in the dark, so there is no need to have super eye sight. Basically, are brain/eyes have adapted to our environment over a rather long time. I would suggest reading Richard Dawkin's, and Stephen Hawking's Books on the universe etc, because they will give you a clearer picture.

IAA

 

[reve]

good example Stephen Hawkings. Here is a man who users his brain to understand time for example. Now why would a human (slave being) want to do that? We have brains that were designed for higher intelligences than we possess. Possess is the important factor. This big brain enables higher intelligences to possess us. It also allows for growth. I referred originally to the well worn scientific statement that we use 10% of our brains if that. You have to think of the average human intelligence not the super scientific geek. Most humans use and need as much brain as their donkey, which is just as evolved in my opinion as the average human - English tourist or football fan for example - I am English so can say that. We need eyes less than an optic fibre wired to our computers to save eye fatigue. This would cover driving at night and mating etc. Clever people who meticulously destroy their habitat and develop wings to go to another habitat. Humans.

 

[PolyHedral]

Here is a man who users his brain to understand time for example. Now why would a human (slave being) want to do that?

Keep in mind precisly who you are talking about. What else is there to do?

 

[reve]

A Robin Redbreast in a cage
puts all of Heaven in a rage

blake.

 

[AfterGlow]

The problem comes from people coming in at the end of a very long process, seeing something exceptionally complex and not really understanding the nature of the process that formed it.
It's a bit like showing someone a computer's motherboard and asking them to explain how to make one without giving them any training, the ignorance of the process of building a computer's motherboard makes the motherboard itself look all the more complex. Going through it step by step though allows us to see how the end product all comes together in a way that makes sense.
The same is true of the brain and the eye, looking at the final product makes them seem almost impossibly complex, but if you could travel through time and observe all the stages of evolution, when you returned to the present you'd understand how it all came about.

 

[Frank Merton]

The same is true of the brain and the eye, looking at the final product makes them seem almost impossibly complex, but if you could travel through time and observe all the stages of evolution, when you returned to the present you'd understand how it all came about.

When I am not able to understand how something could be, it is more likely my lack of imagination than the thing's lack of possibility.

 

[wmjbyatt]

The other thing to keep in mind is that natural selection is a probabilistic process, meaning that, with a few billion iterations on hand, its likely to pull off at least a couple tricks that are REALLY unlikely.

 

[Frank Merton]

The other thing to keep in mind is that natural selection is a probabilistic process, meaning that, with a few billion iterations on hand, its likely to pull off at least a couple tricks that are REALLY unlikely.

A human life is a century; a civilization may last a millennium; agriculture is somewhat more than 10,000 years old.

Compare those numbers to the time evolution has -- the geologists allow several billion years. A billion years is the entire history of human agriculture a hundred thousand times.

I think that is the main difficulty creationists have -- they cannot imagine such spans of time and what is possible in such a span.