"The brain is just how the soul expresses itself"

[Mr Spinkles]

"The brain seems to derive consciousness from interaction among numerous systems within the brain." - emphasis mine

The word "seems" there is intended to illustrate uncertainty about the mechanism by which consciousness is derived in the brain. It is well-established that consciousness is (somehow) derived in the brain.

 

[rocketman]

But the brain in its entirety is responsible for consciousness and higher decision making.

I respect your opinion but I don't see any evidence that higher decision making functions have been mapped. Demonstrate the actual mechanics of that and you'll be up for a nobel. Knowing that there is activity in the brain in and around decision making time does not in and of itself preclude the something else is at work - until we get an understanding that will allow us to predict what the bio circuts will decide based on their physical state before the input is received. Obviously we are yonks away from that trick.

Yes, that is true: there is no centralized location within the brain. But the roughly fist-sized organ we call the brain IS the controlling location for consciousness. Are you implying that the controlling location for consciousness MUST be an infinitely tiny point?

No, I'm saying nobody can yet point to a brain function or group of functions that 'decide'. We are nowhere near even knowing what biological logic-gates might be involved, or whether it is quantum and so on. All bets are still on as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I respect your opinion but I don't see any evidence that higher decision making functions have been mapped.

That is not what I claimed.

Knowing that there is activity in the brain in and around decision making time does not in and of itself preclude the something else is at work

1. You are understating the extent of our knowledge. We not only know that there is 'activity in the brain in and around decision making time'. We also know, from both human and animal studies, that emotions, arousal, memory, and learning are of critical importance to decision-making, and all of these are mediated by physical circumstances or stimulii.
2. To the extent that your statement is true, it is also true of the mammalian brain in general. Our knowlege does not preclude 'something else' at work in chimps and dolphins, too, or even in solar flares or Earth's magnetic field. Therefore....? :help:

No, I'm saying nobody can yet point to a brain function or group of functions that 'decide'. We are nowhere near even knowing what biological logic-gates might be involved, or whether it is quantum and so on. All bets are still on as far as I'm concerned.

"All bets are off" with respect to physical mechanisms, yes. Show me a study published in a peer-reviewed journal that presents evidence for non-physical influences on our consciousness or decision-making.

 

[rocketman]

Show me a study published in a peer-reviewed journal that presents evidence for non-physical influences on our consciousness or decision-making.

That is not what I claimed.

The link I gave was from a neuroscientist who is pretty close to my view. I think both sides views are quite reasonable at this early stage where knowledge of the brain is still in it's infancy. I tend towards my view because of my personal experiences, which in turn is why can I deeply respect the other view, which is usually lacking in such events.

 

[Febble]

I respect your opinion but I don't see any evidence that higher decision making functions have been mapped. Demonstrate the actual mechanics of that and you'll be up for a nobel. Knowing that there is activity in the brain in and around decision making time does not in and of itself preclude the something else is at work - until we get an understanding that will allow us to predict what the bio circuts will decide based on their physical state before the input is received. Obviously we are yonks away from that trick.

No, I'm saying nobody can yet point to a brain function or group of functions that 'decide'. We are nowhere near even knowing what biological logic-gates might be involved, or whether it is quantum and so on. All bets are still on as far as I'm concerned.

I think that is way too pessimistic. We know a lot about the circuits implicated in executive decision making, and I'd say we know quite a bit about the kinds of logic gates that might be involved. What makes you think we don't?

 

[rocketman]

I think that is way too pessimistic.

That's just where it's at currently.

We know a lot about the circuits implicated in executive decision making,

We know which circuts are implicated, but we know very little about what they actually do.

and I'd say we know quite a bit about the kinds of logic gates that might be involved.

You can't be serious.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

"All bets are off" with respect to physical mechanisms, yes. Show me a study published in a peer-reviewed journal that presents evidence for non-physical influences on our consciousness or decision-making.

That is not what I claimed.

You claimed that we will never find the seat of consciousness/higher decision-making.

I pointed out we have found it: it is the brain.

You then claimed that because we don't understand the mechanics of decision-making, "all bets are on".

I thought that by this, you meant to suggest that non-physical explanations are right up there in the running with all the physical explanations. Why did I think you were saying this? Because the issue at hand is the existence of a non-physical soul; and you have mentioned miracles; and you linked to an article that talks about what neuroscience can tell us about the extent of God's supernatural activity on our souls, what's going to happen when God resurrects us, etc. So I asked a rhetorical question in order to demonstrate that non-physical explanations are not serious contenders in neuroscience.

You responded "that is not what I claimed" and then again provided the link to the article which claims, among other things, that "...God is sovereign over all of creation, including our brains. God can work through natural laws, "random" events, and God can perform miracles..." ....and so forth.

The link I gave was from a neuroscientist who is pretty close to my view. I think both sides views are quite reasonable at this early stage where knowledge of the brain is still in it's infancy. I tend towards my view because of my personal experiences, which in turn is why can I deeply respect the other view, which is usually lacking in such events.

I read it and did not find it convincing. He's not speaking as a scientist, he's speaking as a Christian.

The predispositions which are hardwired into our brains may hinder or help us to live obediently. By God's grace, through a life of faith, those predispositions will increasingly conform to God's will.​

This is not an argument. This is a sermon. Not too surprising considering the fact that this man teaches at Calvin College, a school with a Christian agenda:

"In addition to teaching every class from a Christian perspective, Calvin encourages you to take ownership of your faith. There are lots of opportunities for you to be intentional about growing and living out your faith every day."​

[emphasis added] Calvin College - Prospective Students - Living Your Faith

Again, show me a study published in a peer-reviewed journal that presents evidence for non-physical influences on our consciousness or decision-making. (Christian apologetics need not apply )

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I insist that we pursue this point:

You said:

Knowing that there is activity in the brain in and around decision making time does not in and of itself preclude the something else is at work

One issue that I raised in response was:

To the extent that your statement is true, it is also true of the mammalian brain in general. Our knowlege does not preclude 'something else' at work in chimps and dolphins, too, or even in solar flares or Earth's magnetic field. Therefore....? :help:

I submit to you that it is close to impossible to attain any amount of knowledge on any subject at all that can 'preclude something else at work'. I insist that we not drop this point, so I will ask a direct question: isn't it true that our current knowledge does not preclude 'something else' at work not just in the human brain, but also in the chimpanzee brain, the dolphin brain, and Earth's magnetic fields?

 

[FFH]

The brain has no life but what God gives it. It cannot cause a body to walk or talk. Our spirits (souls) use our temporary physical brains as tools in which to walk, talk, etc. The brain in and of itself has no life of it's own. For instance it cannot reason on it's own of course or cause a finger to move at will, a miracle in and of itself.

Similarly, a computer has no life but what we give it or program into it.

 

[Sunstone]

The brain has no life but what God gives it. It cannot cause a body to walk or talk. Our spirits (souls) use our temporary physical brains as tools in which to walk, talk, etc. The brain in and of itself has no life of it's own. For instance it cannot reason on it's own of course.

Similarly, a computer has no life but what we give it or program into it.

There does not seem to be much evidence for your claims.

 

[FFH]

There does not seem to be much evidence for your claims.

Right back at ya.

There is no evidence to the contrary. No frankenstein evidences out there, otherwise we could build ourselves an army of "non people," who could fight our wars for us and if they died, oh well, they really weren't people anyway. No feelings no emotions, no reasoning, etc.

 

[Sunstone]

Right back at ya.

There is no evidence to the contrary. No frankenstein evidences out there, otherwise we could build ourselves an army of "non people," who could fight our wars for us and if they died, oh well, they really weren't people anyway. No feelings no emotions, no reasoning, etc.

Are you dodging the question? What evidence is there for your claims? If you cannot present any evidence, then why not just assert the brain is run by highly intelligent, invisible grapefruit pits, and be done with it.

 

[FFH]

Monkey's brains have been wired directly to video game controllers and have demonstrated the ability to play simple games using only their brains, no arms, hands fingers involved.

Truly amazing and a miracle in and of itself, but the brain in and of itself cannot even move a finger at will, it takes the spirit/will of a monkey to do this, which contains no dense physical matter. The monkey's spirit is made up of more refined matter which our dense physical eyes cannot detect.

The spirit/will of the monkey has always existed and gives life to it's temprorary dense physical form.

 

[Sunstone]

Monkeys brains have been wired directly to video game controllers and have demonstrated the ability to play simple games using only their brains, no arms, hands fingers involved.

Truly amazing and a miracle in and of itself, but the brain in and of itself cannot even move a finger at will, it takes the spirit/will of a monkey to do this, which contains no dense physical matter, it's contains more refined matter which our dense physical eyes cannot detect.

The spirit/will of the monkey has always existed and gives life to it's temprorary dense physical form.

Again, you are merely making claims and failing to support them.

I'm beginning to suspect you believe in magic.

 

[FFH]

This man is moving his mechanical prosthesis using only his spirit/will, which controls his brain (dense physical aspect of his body).

Online NewsHour: Reconnecting -- November 18, 2003

Our spirits are made of refined physical matter undetectable with our dense physical eyes.

My eyes and ears were "opened" (transformed by God) for a few seconds on three occasions and I was able to see and hear certain things otherwise undetectable by my normal eyes.

There is another dimmension all around us that we cannot see or hear unless we are given that option by God, if he allows it.

I have proof personally of this, which has been witnessed to me through being able to see this other more refined dimmension.

May others have seen this more refined dimmension, but of course there is no way to photograph or record it, or is there ????

Many claim they have.

 

[FFH]

Again, you are merely making claims and failing to support them.

I'm beginning to suspect you believe in magic.

All things are connected in some way, but we are unable to see this with our limited dense physical senses, divine miracles and demonic magic are manifestations of that.

There are ways to prove the brain has no will of it's own, but will the hearer listen or the observer see ???

Really the burden of proof is on your side of the table, which I'll slide over to you at this point.

Prove to me the brain can function (move a finger for example, or write a poem) with no spirit or will involved.

My spirit moves my fingers as I type these words, my brain is the physical controller, which is physically connected to my much more refined physical spirit, which again, in return, is connected to my physical brain, which is, of course, connected to my physical fingers, which taps this physical keyboard, that's all.

 

[rocketman]

Again, show me a study published in a peer-reviewed journal that presents evidence for non-physical influences on our consciousness or decision-making.

Respectfully, I wish I could help you but again I can only point out that I am not claiming there is any. Nor did the article by the neuroscientist I quoted. In fact my thrust all along has been that we will never find it, nor do I believe we will find it's physical counterpart either.

 

[rocketman]

I insist that we not drop this point, so I will ask a direct question: isn't it true that our current knowledge does not preclude 'something else' at work not just in the human brain, but also in the chimpanzee brain, the dolphin brain, and Earth's magnetic fields?

I've already addressed this with my response to your alien idea. So here it is again my friend:

"I cannot rule that out, but it would be a lot more believeable if the aliens were here telling us that they can percieve of their 'sense of self' going on indefinitely."

 

[Febble]

That's just where it's at currently.

Well, I think we are further than that.

We know which circuts are implicated, but we know very little about what they actually do.

But we know a bit. Sure, there's lots that we don't know, but there are various ways we can tackle the question, and they are the subject of ongoing and already productive research.

You can't be serious.

Of course I'm serious. I'm a neuroscientist myself, and I work in the the area of executive control of action. If we had no idea about what was going on, we wouldn't be able to start work. But we do, and so we do. And, in particular, we know a fair bit about the excitatory and inhibitory feedback loops between different populations of neurons, i.e. the kinds of logic gates involved.

But perhaps I didn't understand your comment.

Cheers

Lizzie

 

[rocketman]

Of course I'm serious. I'm a neuroscientist myself, and I work in the the area of executive control of action.

Well, what are we waiting for? Let's take your knowledge of the logic gate designs which create awareness and produce high level decision insights and let's go and make a fortune.

But perhaps I didn't understand your comment.

Lizzie, if you are trying to tell me that you are optimistic that we will one day "get an understanding that will allow us to predict what the bio circuts will decide based on their physical state before the input is received' then I suppose I can understand that.

I'm actually neither optimistic nor pessimistic. I think the brain just 'is' and will never reveal a soul or a lack thereof.