The bright side of Atheism

[Buttercup]

Some organizations tell people that some things which may not be sins are sins or are wrong. For instance, some organizations tell their adherents that eating red meat on Friday is wrong. Some organizations tell their adherents that not recycling is wrong. Some organizations tell their adherents that fracking is wrong. Some organizations tell their adherents that racial mixing is wrong.

My religious organization teaches that I am to treat my neighbor as I want to be treated. It teaches to forgive others if I expect to be forgiven. Of course, if these tenets are applied, it becomes clear pretty quickly that I shouldn't commit adultery, or be filled with jealousy (jealousy has some pretty nasty ramifications often enough for it to be a destructive thought pattern), or commit murder, or drive drunk, etc.

Generally speaking, I avoid sin because I realize it's destructive nature - to me and to others. Now, like you, that 's not to say I don't "make an oopsie," ie, "sin," - but my moral standard, which my religious beliefs help form (my life and experiences also form, and continue to form, my moral standard) affirms to me that sin is generally very destructive to myself and/or others, so it's a good thing to avoid. Now - do I WORRY about it? Well, worrying isn't really a big part of my natural personality - I'm just not wired to worry, I guess. But I do take precautions when it comes to sin. I installed a security system and I lock my doors at night - because I know that some people sin. I try to eat a healthy diet because I know that the sin of gluttony or the act of disregarding my body's health has destructive ramifications. I married a person of good moral character because I know that some people are more prone to, and some people are less prone to, committing adultery, which is unacceptable to me when it comes to my marriage. And it's unacceptable to me because of it's destructive nature and the hurt it can cause other people - not simply because "God said don't do it." But God DID say "Don't do it," and I can see why.

In other words, my faith is mature and has grown into the understanding of WHY "the ten commandments" are relevant. I don't blindly follow them - I follow them because I believe they are relevant and make good sense. And I'm grateful for an upbringing in which I learned these tenets BEFORE I was able to see just how applicable they are to life.

But I've also been around long enough to realize the limitations of my human understanding and perspective, and that's when my faith steps in and comforts and supports me emotionally and spiritually.

What are your thoughts on where agnostics and atheists get their morals and standards from since we (me and you) basically agree on the actions that are morally wrong or "sin".

 

[TheGunShoj]

"Sin" means "missing the mark." Do atheists ever "miss the mark?" Do they make poor choices which hurt themselves and others? Are they sometimes selfish? Is it possible for an atheist to be a bitter person, or a jealous person, or be unreasonably hateful? Can an atheist be a glutton, a thief, an adulterer, a murderer, a con artist, etc? Can an atheist say hurtful, unnecessary things to their loved ones and parents?

Sin necessarily requires a deity. Since atheists don't believe in a deity, it's a useless term to us.

If they can do these things, does whether or not there's a god make any difference as to whether or not these things are hurtful or destructive?

Of course not. So what?

However, does that mean that there can be different moral codes for everyone? Or is there some sort of universal moral code along the lines of "It's all ok as long as you don't hurt yourself or others?"

Yes everyone can have their own moral code. However, we are a social species and we have empathy. We recognize that it's in all of our best interests to get along. If I don't want my stuff stolen, and other people don't want theirs stolen either, it makes sense that we would make laws to protect each other from harmful actions of others.

 

[Kathryn]

I mean by "sin" some arbitrary taboo, usually prescribed by religion, that is not based on reason and evidence.

I am fine with the notion of crime. Ie, harming people, or extended to, say, the environment.

So your personal definition of sin differs from the Biblical definition of sin? (I don't know the particulars of other religions' definitions so I can only speak for the biblical definition.)

Just clarifying.

 

[Kathryn]

What are your thoughts on where agnostics and atheists get their morals and standards from since we (me and you) basically agree on the actions that are morally wrong or "sin".

That's the question I'M asking. I can only speak for myself. I don't want to assume for others.

 

[Buttercup]

That's the question I'M asking. I can only speak for myself. I don't want to assume for others.

Don't you think most ethical standards were socially constructed regarding origin? I can't imagine cavemen would put up with some dude from another cave stealing his club, food or wife.

 

[Alceste]

And if we're talking about what various organizations dictate as "wrong" or a "sin," you can also include:

Interracial marriage
Drinking tap water
Hunting
Fracking
Wearing fur
Eating meat
Voting Republican
Voting Democratic
Union membership
Not joining a union

Oh wait...those aren't necessarily religious mandates so they don't count, I guess. I mean, other organizations can mandate what's "right" or "wrong," and their constituents may lose their membership in such organizations due to their personal practices or choices, or feel guilty for disobeying or compromising these mandates, or they but that's not the same sort of guilt, I guess...or maybe it's a superior form of guilt...or maybe disobeying these mandates or rules or guidelines is more easily justified...

I'm not sure any of those examples are the equivalent of the church's suppression of natural expressions of human sexuality. They're opinions, and in general nobody feels guilty about prioritizing their own political opinions over somebody else's. There's no "rule" that you have to do any of these things. One might choose to, but there's no "rule" about it. Besides which, I'm not a dog or a child. I don't feel guilt for breaking the "rules" of some random authority figure. When I feel guilt, it's only ever because something I've done has hurt me or someone else.

 

[Shuttlecraft]

Can somebody help me understand this?-

A few years ago a guy who ran a wargame website he said he wouldn't be online much for a while because his wife was awaiting a heart/lung transplant, so we all said stuff like- "That's tough, sh** happens", and for good measure I said-
"Look, I know a few Christian groups, do you want me to ask them to say some prayers for her?", but to my surprise he replied-
"No thanks, she's got plenty of people around her looking after her"

So I let it drop but have wondered ever since why he didn't want prayers?
Maybe he was an atheist, I dunno, would all atheists reject prayers like that?

PS- I lost touch with him and the site later, so I never did know what happened to his wife.

 

[Revoltingest]

Can somebody help me understand this?-

A few years ago a guy who ran a wargame website he said he wouldn't be online much for a while because his wife was awaiting a heart/lung transplant, so we all said stuff like- "That's tough, sh** happens", and for good measure I said-
"Look, I know a few Christian groups, do you want me to ask them to say some prayers for her?", but to my surprise he replied-
"No thanks, she's got plenty of people around her looking after her"

So I let it drop but have wondered ever since why he didn't want prayers?
Maybe he was an atheist, I dunno, would all atheists reject prayers like that?

PS- I lost touch with him and the site later, so I never did know what happened to his wife.

I would've just thanked you.
Good efforts are appreciated whether effective or not.

But when I was young, before I became the paragon of social skill &
awareness you see before you, I might've called you a "silly poopy head".

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

And if we're talking about what various organizations dictate as "wrong" or a "sin," you can also include:

Interracial marriage

There's racist religious groups that do think interracial relationships are a "sin" or otherwise forbidden.

Hunting

Yeah, there's religious groups against that, too.

Just randomly throwing that out there.

 

[LuisDantas]

So I let it drop but have wondered ever since why he didn't want prayers?
Maybe he was an atheist, I dunno, would all atheists reject prayers like that?

Some would. It may be unconfortable to encourage the perception that we welcome prayers.

But your narrative leaves some doubt on whether he even meant anything. Maybe he was in a hurry or something.

 

[Buttercup]

So I let it drop but have wondered ever since why he didn't want prayers?
Maybe he was an atheist, I dunno, would all atheists reject prayers like that?

I always thankfully and gladly accept prayers. I think it's incredibly thoughtful that someone would offer to think of me or my family in that regard. I couldn't imagine ever saying no.

 

[YmirGF]

I always thankfully and gladly accept prayers. I think it's incredibly thoughtful that someone would offer to think of me or my family in that regard. I couldn't imagine ever saying no.

Strangely, for those who know me well, I would be a bit insulted if they were to say, "I'll pray for you."

 

[TheGunShoj]

Can somebody help me understand this?-

A few years ago a guy who ran a wargame website he said he wouldn't be online much for a while because his wife was awaiting a heart/lung transplant, so we all said stuff like- "That's tough, sh** happens", and for good measure I said-
"Look, I know a few Christian groups, do you want me to ask them to say some prayers for her?", but to my surprise he replied-
"No thanks, she's got plenty of people around her looking after her"

So I let it drop but have wondered ever since why he didn't want prayers?
Maybe he was an atheist, I dunno, would all atheists reject prayers like that?

PS- I lost touch with him and the site later, so I never did know what happened to his wife.

I wouldn't be rude about it but I wouldn't want prayers either. Why would I want you to essentially do nothing for her? Seeing as I don't believe in the effectiveness of prayer.

 

[Revoltingest]

Strangely, for those who know me well, I would be a bit insulted if they were to say, "I'll pray for you."

No prayers for you!
Come back one year!

 

[Buttercup]

Strangely, for those who know me well, I would be a bit insulted if they were to say, "I'll pray for you."

I wouldn't be rude about it but I wouldn't want prayers either. Why would I want you to essentially do nothing for her? Seeing as I don't believe in the effectiveness of prayer.

This is just my opinion, but if anyone offers to pray for you and you decline with graciousness and genuine thanks, you're cool. It's a rare thing for a complete stranger or acquaintance to offer to do something for you so thoughtful. In the grand scheme of things, I consider it an honor for anyone to offer sweet thoughts or prayers on my behalf. I'd feel like a jerk for not genuinely being appreciative.

 

[Shuttlecraft]

'Prayer' is an old-fashioned word and probably puts people off, so maybe a better term for it is "thought-pressure".
If our reality is just an illusion or dream, maybe it's worthwhile trying to affect it by thought-pressure?
In fact if we regard Jesus as a 'Master of the Art of Dream Manipulation', that'd explain how he was able to bend "reality" to produce what people regarded as his 37 'miracles'
Furthermore he said that WE could do it too, and that we could even "move mountains" IF we believed we could do it..
When Neo tried the 'Jump Program' in The Matrix, he flopped because he didn't believe he could do it-

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"Have you ever had a dream Neo that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world?"- Morpheus in The Matrix

"All that we see or seem, is but a dream within a dream"- Edgar Allen Poe

"You can be in my dream if i can be in your dream" -Bob Dylan

"We are such stuff as dreams are made on" -The Tempest

"Strawberry Fields...nothing is real" - The Beatles

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one'' -Einstein

 

[TheGunShoj]

This is just my opinion, but if anyone offers to pray for you and you decline with graciousness and genuine thanks, you're cool. It's a rare thing for a complete stranger or acquaintance to offer to do something for you so thoughtful. In the grand scheme of things, I consider it an honor for anyone to offer sweet thoughts or prayers on my behalf. I'd feel like a jerk for not genuinely being appreciative.

I agree and understand that it's the thought that counts, they think prayer is effective so it's a genuine attempt to help. I guess it just kind of bothers me because in the back of my mind I know that they aren't really doing anything at all. That is of course, my opinion of prayer.

 

[TheGunShoj]

'Prayer' is an old-fashioned word and probably puts people off, so maybe a better term for it is "thought-pressure".
If our reality is just an illusion or dream, maybe it's worthwhile trying to affect it by thought-pressure?

There have been several prayer (or "thought pressure") studies done that seem to indicate that it is not effective.

 

[Shuttlecraft]

Interestingly, Gertrude Schmeidler once ran a series of ESP experiments that seemed to indicate that open-minded believers in the supernatural scored better than skeptics, as if the unbelievers were digging themselves into a hole of disbelief..
No wonder Prof Schmeidler said -"This was inexplicable by the physical laws we knew, it implied unexplored processes in the universe, an exciting new field for research. From then on, naturally, my primary research interest was parapsychology"

Gertrude Schmeidler

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Can somebody help me understand this?-

A few years ago a guy who ran a wargame website he said he wouldn't be online much for a while because his wife was awaiting a heart/lung transplant, so we all said stuff like- "That's tough, sh** happens", and for good measure I said-
"Look, I know a few Christian groups, do you want me to ask them to say some prayers for her?", but to my surprise he replied-
"No thanks, she's got plenty of people around her looking after her"

So I let it drop but have wondered ever since why he didn't want prayers?
Maybe he was an atheist, I dunno, would all atheists reject prayers like that?

PS- I lost touch with him and the site later, so I never did know what happened to his wife.

A lot of it comes down to the specific context, how well somebody knows me, and what their specific intention seems to be.

Honestly, if someone isn't able or expected to provide actual help in any given situation, then I'd rather they just say that "I'm in their thoughts," or something along those lines. Even if somebody's intentions are sincere and positive when they offer to "pray for me," it seems equivalent to somebody saying that they're going to cast a spell for me or sacrifice a chicken for me - it's just kind of silly.