The Catholic Church should be shut down

[Deidre]

I don't think the #metoo movement is a good example. Of anything.

I do.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The Roman Catholic Church should not be permitted to operate any longer. It’s a crime ridden organization masquerading as a religion. The sex abuse cases that continue to pour into the media are horrific and mind blowing. Mind blowing that the cover ups are all through the hierarchy. Any other organization in the secular sphere would be shut down. And people would be arrested. Everyone who was complicit in this, should be arrested. Every priest, every bishop, every cardinal, even the pope if that’s the case. Bill Cosby is 80 years old and stood trial, age should have nothing to do with these dudes being allowed to get away with these crimes.

The government should shut this organization down because it has been committing crimes for decades.

What are your thoughts?

I don't agree with some of the beliefs of the Catholic church. I don't think the Catholic church has done nearly enough to address corruption in its ranks and the whole history of sex abuse by priests has exemplified endemic problems at the highest levels. However there are many Catholics who are sincere and good examples of their faith. The Catholics play an important role in charity work in my city.

It seems extreme to propose governments shut down churches. This is behaviour of oppressive regimes, like some communist countries. There will be a natural attrition from religious organisations that don't meet peoples needs or adjust to modernity. Let people decide for themselves and vote with their feet rather than asking governments to make decisions on their behalf.

 

[CruzNichaphor]

The Church couldn't exist without devout adherents to fill its coffers...

That's way off.

The Church has far too much of a stronghold in its international property to be even remotely fazed by gullible people becoming disillusioned with the veracity of its supposed messages.

 

[Deidre]

The RCC is an oppressive regime.

And this has nothing to do with individual Catholics...at all.

I don't agree with some of the beliefs of the Catholic church. I don't think the Catholic church has done nearly enough to address corruption in its ranks and the whole history of sex abuse by priests has exemplified endemic problems at the highest levels. However there are many Catholics who are sincere and good examples of their faith. The Catholics play an important role in charity work in my city.

It seems extreme to propose governments shut down churches. This is behaviour of oppressive regimes, like some communist countries. There will be a natural attrition from religious organisations that don't meet peoples needs or adjust to modernity. Let people decide for themselves and vote with their feet rather than asking governments to make decisions on their behalf.

 

[Father Heathen]

The most High God is not happy that all this is happening to children

Now if only he had the power to do something about it...

 

[Deidre]

That's way off.

The Church has far too much of a stronghold in its international property to be even remotely fazed by gullible people becoming disillusioned with the veracity of its supposed messages.

The Church needs money. That's what drives it all. That's what drives cover ups. Money and power. Meanwhile, Jesus was a humble man who walked everywhere and preached very simple messages...

I can't help but think he would be ashamed to see what has happened to his message.

 

[Deidre]

Now if only he had the power to do something about it...

He probably wonders why so many of his followers don't do anything about it. :/

 

[Unveiled Artist]

By definition, yes, it is politics.

The Catholic Church's mission isn't to uphold Jesus' teachings. If it were, I wouldn't be posting this thread. Its mission is to uphold the Church. The abuse and cover ups are so vast and wide spread, it isn't a one off or anomaly. It was how they have operated for decades. Oops, centuries lol

Thats bias and speaks about a lot of people who do have a correct relationship with christ. How do you speak for other peopls relationship with christ?

They operated with the idea that what happens in the RCC, stays in the RCC. Recently, a cardinal that was complicit in one of the scandals, has only been ordered to leave his post, meaning he can't do priestly duties anymore, and he will live out his days in some random cottage, adjacent to the church. What a joke. He should be arrested and tried for engaging in criminal activity. Why are these men getting away with this??

Okay.... that doesnt excuse seeing the people as if they commited the crimes of a set few within the same denomination to which they practice.

I remember having a conversation with my parents recently about this, they are devout Catholics, and they make all kinds of excuses for the Church and their role in all of this. I remember believing so much good about the RCC, but not anymore.

Its not about you (or me) but the people as a whole. Its not based on our experiences, ideally, but from what I know of scripture and the CCC etc, some of the actions by parts of the Church do not define The Body itself. You mixing the two.

I don't think it should be permitted to operate anymore. If it were a secular organization, or charity, it would be shut down. Or at the very least, many people arrested and tried for their crimes.

Charities need funding. Funding comes from The Church. Take away The Church, my gosh, thats a govermental and societal crisis. Our US history is supported by The Church. While I dont agree to its history, I dont define them by it; huge difference.

What does this have to do with priests, bishops and cardinals who allowed this to happen, being brought to trial, at the very least?

I dont know what this is referring to

Their cover ups have nothing to do with ''politics.'' If you read some of the articles that talk about these cases, many of the bishops thought that it would be in violation of the confessional vows, (which has to do with religion, not politics) so they didn't report them to the police. Apparently, many pedophile priests confessed these crimes, and the bishops in charge of those dioceses, just moved them to another church...to abuse more kids. ignorance is almost as bad as evil. This has nothing to do with how you worship, this has to do with understanding what type of organization you support. I used to support it too, I get it. They are quite convincing.

The coverups IS part of its politics. That is a fact.

Yes, it does have something to do with how a catholic worships. People cry for how much people hate the Church because they see The Church not as an organization but what holds people together in worship.

People support the body of christ not the sins of the Church.

The politics (how the Church runs in relation to the government and people in society) of the church doesnt define the teachings and worshp of people within The Church.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You're not trying to understand where I'm coming from. You keep going back to you, or your personal relationship with Jesus. Or that I'm insulting all Catholics.

What has gone on in the RCC, is indefensible. If you think it is, we have nothing more to discuss.

Objectively, Church issues are, by definition politics.

No. I have heard these views a lot because I live in a catholic owned home, with catholic and protestants in my home community, in a christian town, state, and country.

I heard it all.

I dont like comparing the politics of the church to the people in The Church.

I disagree with its politics; but, I would never ever judge people because of their denomination.

Also, I always thought you as an even tone in your opinions about things. This threw me for a loop.

 

[Deidre]

By definition, yes, it is politics.


Thats bias and speaks about a lot of people who do have a correct relationship with christ. How do you speak for other peopls relationship with christ?



Okay.... that doesnt excuse seeing the people as if they commited the crimes of a set few within the same denomination to which they practice.



Its not about you (or me) but the people as a whole. Its not based on our experiences, ideally, but from what I know of scripture and the CCC etc, some of the actions by parts of the Church do not define The Body itself. You mixing the two.



Charities need funding. Funding comes from The Church. Take away The Church, my gosh, thats a govermental and societal crisis. Our US history is supported by The Church. While I dont agree to its history, I dont define them by it; huge difference.



I dont know what this is referring to



The coverups IS part of its politics. That is a fact.

Yes, it does have something to do with how a catholic worships. People cry for how much people hate the Church because they see The Church not as an organization but what holds people together in worship.

People support the body of christ not the sins of the Church.

The politics (how the Church runs in relation to the government and people in society) of the church doesnt define the teachings and worshp of people within The Church.

I will say, part of the problem with this dialogue, is my own bias against the Church. Not unfounded, I feel that my faith was hurt by the Church. I left the faith, I identified as an atheist, and then I came back to a spiritual life, outside of the RCC. That is my own issue, and not yours. So, there's that, and I will admit that.

But, I'm not begrudging you or anyone from worshipping as you like, but I think what you're saying is that I am saying that, because I want it to be shut down. I personally don't see much good coming from the organization. Jesus isn't found solely in the RCC. You don't need the RCC or any organization to know God. That's the Truth.

And it will set us free.

 

[CruzNichaphor]

The Church needs money. That's what drives it all. That's what drives cover ups. Money and power.

LOL

The church has enough money and power. It doesn't need any more.

The church has literally so much actual treasure in their possession that they could say: "okay another sex abuse scandal in Brazil... better sell another artefact from the Crusades to a French museum so we can set up a slew of schools and hospitals - just make sure you grab one of the crowns that still has a relatively intact skull lodged in it.. those frogs love that creepy stuff."

This is why I'm kinda.. I guess optimistic? I don't even know anymore.

 

[Deidre]

Objectively, Church issues are, by definition politics.

No. I have heard these views a lot because I live in a catholic owned home, with catholic and protestants in my home community, in a christian town, state, and country.

I heard it all.

I dont like comparing the politics of the church to the people in The Church.

I disagree with its politics; but, I would never ever judge people because of their denomination.

Also, I always thought you as an even tone in your opinions about things. This threw me for a loop.

Why are you lying about what I'm saying? I'm not judging you because you're Catholic.

I'm judging the RCC for allowing children to be abused.

I'm not judging you. I will judge the priest, bishops and cardinals who allowed the abuse to happen and covered it up. That's what this thread is about. If you want to keep making it about something it's not, I don't know want to say.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The RCC is an oppressive regime.

And this has nothing to do with individual Catholics...at all.

Yes, it does. Humans run The Church; and, its some of the people that sin.

I will say, part of the problem with this dialogue, is my own bias against the Church. Not unfounded, I feel that my faith was hurt by the Church. I left the faith, I identified as an atheist, and then I came back to a spiritual life, outside of the RCC. That is my own issue, and not yours. So, there's that, and I will admit that.

But, I'm not begrudging you or anyone from worshipping as you like, but I think what you're saying is that I am saying that, because I want it to be shut down. I personally don't see much good coming from the organization. Jesus isn't found solely in the RCC. You don't need the RCC or any organization to know God. That's the Truth.

And it will set us free.

Yes. I see its a personal issue for you. Its not clear that it is from the OP. When you address it as a fact, people do take offense. When you do so as your opinion, we can draw boundaries and treat it as such.

But, your and my experiences doesnt define the Church. I just have more loving and positive connection that priest yelling at me and human sacrifice doesnt change how I see The Church as a whole.

I cant judge The Church bsaed on my experiencs; but I choose to see the positive nature through its people and edit-not politics. I hear about sins and i have some of my own, so its not good for my mental health.

I was and am just surprised you have these feelings insomuch in how you express it so negatively. I dont care for the politics of The Church (child abuse and societal influenes), and not aligned with its teachings on human sacrifice but I would never put down The Church based on my disagreements.

Im just surprised you do. I usually hear that from evangalists and JW mostly.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The RCC is an oppressive regime.

And this has nothing to do with individual Catholics...at all.

Most people Catholics I know don't see their church as being oppressive at all and nor do I. They choose to be there, find it meaningful, and that it meets their spiritual and social needs.

The Catholics are well represented in my cities interfaith council. They engage constructive and compassionately with peoples from all backgrounds of all faiths. They have made significant changes as a result of the second Vatican Council. Time will tell how they meet the changes and challenges of the modern world. In the meantime, I'll defend their right to have their faith as I do with most other faith communities. There's bad eggs in any faith after all.

 

[Deidre]

Most people Catholics I know don't see their church as being oppressive at all and nor do I. They choose to be there, find it meaningful, and that it meets their spiritual and social needs.

The Catholics are well represented in my cities interfaith council. They engage constructive and compassionately with peoples from all backgrounds of all faiths. They have made significant changes as a result of the second Vatican Council. Time will tell how they meet the changes and challenges of the modern world. In the meantime, I'll defend their right to have their faith as I do with most other faith communities. There's bad eggs in any faith after all.

This is more than a few bad eggs.

Why is a hierarchy needed if you can't trust it, though?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Why are you lying about what I'm saying? I'm not judging you because you're Catholic.

I'm judging the RCC for allowing children to be abused.

I'm not judging you. I will judge the priest, bishops and cardinals who allowed the abuse to happen and covered it up. That's what this thread is about. If you want to keep making it about something it's not, I don't know want to say.

Are you having a bad day? I dont remember lying what you are saying. You said you have issues with The Church and expressed your opinions.

If I lied about what you said, I would do so so that it supports my views. It doesnt. So you have me at a lost.

 

[Deidre]

Yes, it does. Humans run The Church; and, its some of the people that sin.


Yes. I see its a personal issue for you. Its not clear that it is from the OP. When you address it as a fact, people do take offense. When you do so as your opinion, we can draw boundaries and treat it as such.

But, your and my experiences doesnt define the Church. I just have more loving and positive connection that priest yelling at me and human sacrifice doesnt change how I see The Church as a whole.

I cant judge The Church bsaed on my experiencs; but I choose to see the positive nature through its people and politics. I hear about sins and i have some of my own, so its not good for my mental health.

I was and am just surprised you have these feelings insomuch in how you express it so negatively. I dont care for the politics of The Church (child abuse and societal influenes), and not aligned with its teachings on human sacrifice but I would never put down The Church based on my disagreements.

Im just surprised you do. I usually hear that from evangalists and JW mostly.

Child abuse is politics? What does that even mean?

 

[Deidre]

Are you having a bad day? I dont remember lying what you are saying. You said you have issues with The Church and expressed your opinions.

If I lied about what you said, I would do so so that it supports my views. It doesnt. So you have me at a lost.

I'm not having a bad day. I'm observing that you are basically turning the thread into somehow feeling personally offended that I want Catholic hierarchy to be brought to justice for the abuse scandals.

This isn't about you. lol The thread isn't about Catholics, as a whole. It's about those in charge in the RCC. It's about bringing justice for those who have been abused.

You are implying that I'm judging people's denominations. I'm not. So, hopefully, that clarifies that. I just think this organization should be shut down. That's my opinion, and you can choose to not agree.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The Roman Catholic Church should not be permitted to operate any longer. It’s a crime ridden organization masquerading as a religion. The sex abuse cases that continue to pour into the media are horrific and mind blowing. Mind blowing that the cover ups are all through the hierarchy. Any other organization in the secular sphere would be shut down. And people would be arrested. Everyone who was complicit in this, should be arrested. Every priest, every bishop, every cardinal, even the pope if that’s the case. Bill Cosby is 80 years old and stood trial, age should have nothing to do with these dudes being allowed to get away with these crimes.

The government should shut this organization down because it has been committing crimes for decades.

What are your thoughts?

In the fallout from the abuse scandal at the Mount Cashel Orphanage, the orphanage was sold off to compensate the victims. It got bought by a developer who bulldozed it to put up a supermarket.

Mount Cashel Orphanage - Wikipedia

I think that sort of thing should happen much more often.

But I agree: if any other organization had the child sex abuse scandal, it wouldn’t exist any more.

If any other organization did anything like the institutional slavery of the Magdalene Institutions in Ireland, it wouldn’t exist any more.

If any other organization had committed human trafficking on the scale of the Spanish baby-kidnaping scandal, it wouldn’t exist any more.

Any of these crimes and scandals just on their own should have been enough for the entire leadership of the Catholic Church to die in prison.

 

[Deidre]

In the fallout from the abuse scandal at the Mount Cashel Orphanage, the orphanage was sold off to compensate the victims. It got bought by a developer who bulldozed it to put up a supermarket.

Mount Cashel Orphanage - Wikipedia

I think that sort of thing should happen much more often.

But I agree: if any other organization had the child sex abuse scandal, it wouldn’t exist any more.

If any other organization did anything like the institutional slavery of the Magdalene Institutions in Ireland, it wouldn’t exist any more.

If any other organization had committed human trafficking on the scale of the Spanish baby-kidnaping scandal, it wouldn’t exist any more.

Any of these crimes and scandals just on their own should have been enough for the entire leadership of the Catholic Church to die in prison.

I would give you a million ''winner'' stars if I could. Well said, and that's exactly what I'm getting at.