The Catholic Church should be shut down

[Unveiled Artist]

Child abuse is politics? What does that even mean?

Politics is issues and problems addressed by government of a specific country and how our government handles problems and runs countries from our presidents to our government organizations (non-profit and not) like Wildlife Associations to name a few.

I used to work at the U.S. Capitol, and before their meetings, a priest would begin a prayer beforehand. A lot of our history both public and not are kept in part and others held by The Church.

Our government laws are still christian influenced but mostly trying to separate their policies from The Church. The Church also has mini organizations such as pushing anti-abortion rights and other things they feel the government should support them on.

Child abuse isnt a catholic thing, its a legal thing. Its not just addressed by The Church but I think Pope Francis is working with officials to change Church procedures about some of the legalities of church sacraments (not the religious part) so the problem wont turn up again. Child abuse isnt a catholic thing.

So, yes, its a political thing. Politics isnt just about presidency. It involves the governments as a whole in all countries. If children are being child abused then its not just a Church issue but a legal one too.

If it has to do with people, it is political.

Thats just how it is. Child abuse isnt a Catholic thing. Just people are more focused on catholics when any sexual abuse from any person and organiation should receive the same scrutiny as do people hold on the church.

Since its political, people, like president elections, tend to gravitate to what they dislike. Its confirmed bias. Yet, they teach love for their neighbor and jesus saved all.

Interesting nonetheless.

 

[InChrist]

I agree. Any church or organization where sexual abuse of children takes place and is covered up should be shut down while the perpetrators, along with those covering for them should face the severest of consequences.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I'm not having a bad day. I'm observing that you are basically turning the thread into somehow feeling personally offended that I want Catholic hierarchy to be brought to justice for the abuse scandals.

This isn't about you. lol The thread isn't about Catholics, as a whole. It's about those in charge in the RCC. It's about bringing justice for those who have been abused.

You are implying that I'm judging people's denominations. I'm not. So, hopefully, that clarifies that. I just think this organization should be shut down. That's my opinion, and you can choose to not agree.

Please read my full posts. They arent attacks. I separate your posts so I can read them in full. Thats why I have long posts. I do so, so I can read it.

But, you have to read them in full. Im not refuting our opinion. Many people dislike The Church because of its politics. But its RF, so I do have some right to challenge your statements and logic.

 

[Deidre]

Politics is issues and problems addressed by government of a specific country and how our government handles problems and runs countries from our presidents to our government organizations (non-profit and not) like Wildlife Associations to name a few.

I used to work at the U.S. Capitol, and before their meetings, a priest would begin a prayer beforehand. A lot of our history both public and not are kept in part and others held by The Church.

Our government laws are still christian influenced but mostly trying to separate their policies from The Church. The Church also has mini organizations such as pushing anti-abortion rights and other things they feel the government should support them on.

Child abuse isnt a catholic thing, its a legal thing. Its not just addressed by The Church but I think Pope Francis is working with officials to change Church procedures about some of the legalities of church sacraments (not the religious part) so the problem wont turn up again. Child abuse isnt a catholic thing.

So, yes, its a political thing. Politics isnt just about presidency. It involves the governments as a whole in all countries. If children are being child abused then its not just a Church issue but a legal one too.

If it has to do with people, it is political.

Thats just how it is. Child abuse isnt a Catholic thing. Just people are more focused on catholics when any sexual abuse from any person and organiation should receive the same scrutiny as do people hold on the church.

Since its political, people, like president elections, tend to gravitate to what they dislike. Its confirmed bias. Yet, they teach love for their neighbor and jesus saved all.

Interesting nonetheless.

Okay, this makes sense. I will agree, abuse isn't a Catholic thing, at all. But, the way it's been handled by the RCC's hierarchy is what makes it stand out. Abuse happens in schools, and many other secular organizations, but usually...there is justice brought for the victims.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You are implying that I'm judging people's denominations. I'm not. So, hopefully, that clarifies that. I just think this organization should be shut down. That's my opinion, and you can choose to not agree.

Deidre, your whole OP and posts are, by definition, judging The Church. Its not a threat or anything. Thats just the nature of the word.

 

[Dawnofhope]

This is more than a few bad eggs.

Why is a hierarchy needed if you can't trust it, though?

Pope Francis may have said 2% of all priests are peadophiles

Did Pope Francis really say 2% of priests are paedophiles?

In Australia the number was thought to be around 7%

7 Percent Of All Catholic Priests Were Alleged Sex Offenders: Royal Commission

So you are right to challenge me.

Any organised religion needs to have an administrative structure to manage its affairs. Problems with the RCC administrative structure are obvious to most of us including the Catholics themselves. However its an internal matter for the Catholics to sort out.

I appreciate your post is born out of frustration with the seemingly glacial pace of change within the worlds largest religious denomination. Often statements made by the church appears more concerned with public relations than the victims. In the interim the impact sexual abuse has had on those abused has been severe and in many cases lives have been utterly ruined forever.

I can see why you would want the government to intervene and in a sense it already is intervening through the criminal justice system.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Okay, this makes sense. I will agree, abuse isn't a Catholic thing, at all. But, the way it's been handled by the RCC's hierarchy is what makes it stand out. Abuse happens in schools, and many other secular organizations, but usually...there is justice brought for the victims.

Yes. By far. I dont agree with it, of course. I have my experiences that really makes that sin well worth my distaste. But I do know The Churches teachings do not reflect child abuse at all. I dont see how you can mix the two.

It will take me awhile to find your statement; but, you do mix the two.

 

[Deidre]

Please read my full posts. They arent attacks. I separate your posts so I can read them in full. Thats why I have long posts. I do so, so I can read it.

But, you have to read them in full. Im not refuting our opinion. Many people dislike The Church because of its politics. But its RF, so I do have some right to challenge your statements and logic.

I see better now, your points. I hope you see mine.

And I don't judge anyone's faith. I've explored quite a few, and feel a connection to God, through different beliefs. The RCC has some rich and beautiful traditions, but this latest scandal that I've read, it just makes me wonder...when will this end? How far back does this go? Why isn't anything being done?

I think that the problem at times, with these discussions, is that it appears like the person against the Catholic Church, somehow links the religion with the crimes. Like for example, perhaps it seems like I think that the RCC is ''using'' religion to abuse people. I don't believe that. I don't believe in the Catholic way of worship for myself, but I don't believe that the religion is designed to disguise abuse. I believe though, that when a religious institution or any for that matter, becomes powerful...wealthy...it can start abusing that power to do bad things. It would be one thing if the hierarchy weren't covering it up, but for me, that is where the bigger issue lies. What else do they cover up? If I were still going to mass, what would it mean for me? It's those things that go through my mind.

 

[Deidre]

Pope Francis may have said 2% of all priests are peadophiles

Did Pope Francis really say 2% of priests are paedophiles?

In Australia the number was thought to be around 7%

7 Percent Of All Catholic Priests Were Alleged Sex Offenders: Royal Commission

So you are right to challenge me.

Any organised religion needs to have an administrative structure to manage its affairs. Problems with the RCC administrative structure are obvious to most of us including the Catholics themselves. However its an internal matter for the Catholics to sort out.

I appreciate your post is born out of frustration with the seemingly glacial pace of change within the worlds largest religious denomination. Often statements made by the church appears more concerned with public relations than the victims. In the interim the impact sexual abuse has had on those abused has been severe and in many cases lives have been utterly ruined forever.

I can see why you would want the government to intervene and in a sense it already is intervening through the criminal justice system.

I don't know why, but your post brings tears to my eyes. Thank you for this post.

I do think however, it shouldn't be an internal matter anymore. They were given that chance, and they have shown, that they can't be trusted. When it comes to children being in the care of adults, I think that the government should have some intervention, now.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I see better now, your points. I hope you see mine.

And I don't judge anyone's faith. I've explored quite a few, and feel a connection to God, through different beliefs. The RCC has some rich and beautiful traditions, but this latest scandal that I've read, it just makes me wonder...when will this end? How far back does this go? Why isn't anything being done?

I think that the problem at times, with these discussions, is that it appears like the person against the Catholic Church, somehow links the religion with the crimes. Like for example, perhaps it seems like I think that the RCC is ''using'' religion to abuse people. I don't believe that. I don't believe in the Catholic way of worship for myself, but I don't believe that the religion is designed to disguise abuse. I believe though, that when a religious institution or any for that matter, becomes powerful...wealthy...it can start abusing that power to do bad things. It would be one thing if the hierarchy weren't covering it up, but for me, that is where the bigger issue lies. What else do they cover up? If I were still going to mass, what would it mean for me? It's those things that go through my mind.

Yes. You arent the only one. Ive seen people cry in front of me because they were embarrased and wondered why people hated her Church (which means people hate Christ). It is a personal thing; people do take it personl because the Church to a catholic is their life because they feel christ is the foundation of The Church, which by scripture, he is (Church-not specific to Roman).

That would run through my head as well. Though, my experiences are opposite of yours, so I cant put down the organization as if it is defined by their sins. Thats like defining the heart of a murderer by his murder. Most religious christians I come across dont agree with me. I notice RF non religious have issues with it as well.

Sorry to say, sounds like many people who are older or have indoctrination issues, from observation. But, if I believed in a god, I would see my god a someone who heals me from negative experiences and makes me see the good in people even in organizations. It doesnt mean you support their sins. Its just a means of supporting them to do good. Team effort.

But thats my bias. I get what youre saying, just the logic behind it is youre mixing the people of The Church with its politics. Its one thing to talk about the issue related to The Church. I hate it too. Its another to define The Church by its sins.

Its an observation of your posts. Im not making it up just I disagree with your aproach.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Objectively, Church issues are, by definition politics.

No. I have heard these views a lot because I live in a catholic owned home, with catholic and protestants in my home community, in a christian town, state, and country.

I heard it all.

I dont like comparing the politics of the church to the people in The Church.

I disagree with its politics; but, I would never ever judge people because of their denomination.

Also, I always thought you as an even tone in your opinions about things. This threw me for a loop.

They’re tied together.

Read the Ryan Report - or at least a summary of it: one of the things that let the abuse scandal reach the level it did was the regard that individual Catholics gave to the Catholic Church. This was why, over and over, when parents reported to the police that their children had been abused, the police officers leading the investigations - individual Catholics - would end up handing their files over to the local bishop and trusting the Church to investigate and address the crimes themselves.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

They’re tied together.

Read the Ryan Report - or at least a summary of it: one of the things that let the abuse scandal reach the level it did was the regard that individual Catholics gave to the Catholic Church. This was why, over and over, when parents reported to the police that their children had been abused, the police officers leading the investigations - individual Catholics - would end up handing their files over to the local bishop and trusting the Church to investigate and address the crimes themselves.

Does this speak for catholic individuals as a whole?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think that the problem at times, with these discussions, is that it appears like the person against the Catholic Church, somehow links the religion with the crimes. Like for example, perhaps it seems like I think that the RCC is ''using'' religion to abuse people. I don't believe that. I don't believe in the Catholic way of worship for myself, but I don't believe that the religion is designed to disguise abuse.

No, but I think it’s fair to say that the structure of the Church is designed to limit redress by victims.

Each diocese is its own legal entity. This means that when there’s a lawsuit against a priest, parish, bishop, etc., at most only the diocese will be made to pay for it. The wealth of the Vatican itself will be untouched even if the diocese goes bankrupt. There have even been cases where dioceses have shuffled money to the Vatican to shield it from being part of a payout to victims.

 

[Deidre]

Deidre, your whole OP and posts are, by definition, judging The Church. Its not a threat or anything. Thats just the nature of the word.

okay

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Does this speak for catholic individuals as a whole?

It speaks to the specific Catholic individuals involved.

But personally, I see no issue with saying that every Catholic who freely supports the Church with their tithes, knowing what the Church has done and continues to do, bears a small bit of the blame for the actions that they’ve materially enabled.

 

[Deidre]

My husband and I went over to see my parents earlier today, and my parents are Catholics. My dad asked me to attend mass, and it's just annoying. lol It's like he can't respect my views and that I don't practice it, anymore. We got into a discussion, and perhaps that is where some of my points of view came from. And we do discuss the scandals frequently, but nothing positive comes from it.

Nonetheless, thanks for sharing to those who did. I truly do wonder where the future of the Catholic Church lies, we will see where it leads.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It speaks to the specific Catholic individuals involved.

But personally, I see no issue with saying that every Catholic who freely supports the Church with their tithes, knowing what the Church has done and continues to do, bears a small bit of the blame for the actions that they’ve materially enabled.

I wouldnt blame them, though. I know a lot of people who support The Body of Christ but not the sins of The Church. They know that everyone is a sinner and hope that the sinners within the Church confess. Its a means of trusting The Church will make its own admends as do the people required to do within it.

Thats the ideal and what The Church teaches. Its hypocretical that The Church goes against its own teachings, but individual Catholics dont see it politically. I dont see them as to blame for supporting child abuse coverups because thats not their intent; thas not the meaning nor purpose of The Church.

Child abuse is a sin just as any other mortal sin. Its meant to be addressed by the laws and regulations of The Church. But, no. Tithing supports a lot of things much more worthwhile than howning in on child abuse.

Is a coverup worse than the child abuse itself? and now that The Church is adressing the issue with the new pope, is the past worst off than what solutions they are trying to solve at persent?

 

[Dawnofhope]

I don't know why, but your post brings tears to my eyes. Thank you for this post.

I do think however, it shouldn't be an internal matter anymore. They were given that chance, and they have shown, that they can't be trusted. When it comes to children being in the care of adults, I think that the government should have some intervention, now.

Its pains me to say it, but you might be right.

I was a psychiatry intern a few years back involved with the treatment of this guy in his 40s who had been sexually abused by priests in an orphanage run by the Catholics. The orphanage turned out to be one of these institutions where the Paedophile priests were attracted too, so it is well known that many boys were sexually abused over years by a handful of priests. These were vulnerable kids and my patient couldn't cope with life. He became a serial arsonist targeting churches. Whenever he got stressed out, he set fire to another church, ended up in prison where he was provided food and shelter. He had spent most of his life in prison and set fire to many churches by the time I saw him. Despite my best efforts I have to acknowledge in hindsight there was little we could do to help change anything for this guy. The Catholics paid for his treatment, fully acknowledging what had happened and it was a matter of public record that the priests from this facility had been convicted.

I thought it was excellent at the time the Catholic Church were paying for his treatment. On the other hand he must have cost the church a small fortune due to building damage not to mention the cost of the government with keeping him housed in prisons for most of his life.

For many of these victims they will never live normal lives and the psychological damage they will bear for a lifetime.

 

[Deidre]

Its pains me to say it, but you might be right.

I was a psychiatry intern a few years back involved with the treatment of this guy in his 40s who had been sexually abused by priests in an orphanage run by the Catholics. The orphanage turned out to be one of these institutions where the Paedophile priests were attracted too, so it is well known that many boys were sexually abused over years by a handful of priests. These were vulnerable kids and my patient couldn't cope with life. He became a serial arsonist targeting churches. Whenever he got stressed out, he set fire to another church, ended up in prison where he was provided food and shelter. He had spent most of his life in prison and set fire to many churches by the time I saw him. Despite my best efforts I have to acknowledge in hindsight there was little we could do to help change anything for this guy. The Catholics paid for his treatment, fully acknowledging what had happened and it was a matter of public record that the priests from this facility had been convicted.

I thought it was excellent at the time the Catholic Church were paying for his treatment. On the other hand he must have cost the church a small fortune due to building damage not to mention the cost of the government with keeping him housed in prisons for most of his life.

For many of these victims they will never live normal lives and the psychological damage they will bear for a lifetime.

Exactly. The irreparable harm done...is there any price to put on that?

I really think they need a third party that is arbitrary to ''watch over'' them. The RCC's clergy and hierarchy need checks and balances, and that is the only way this behavior will stop, for good. The government intervenes in school matters, in state matters. Religious institutions shouldn't be able to hide under their own secret set of rules, when it comes to how they handle crimes.

 

[stvdv]

19 jul 2018 stvdv narc 2216

The Roman Catholic Church should not be permitted to operate any longer. It’s a crime ridden organization masquerading as a religion. The sex abuse cases that continue to pour into the media are horrific and mind blowing. Mind blowing that the cover ups are all through the hierarchy. Any other organization in the secular sphere would be shut down. And people would be arrested. Everyone who was complicit in this, should be arrested. Every priest, every bishop, every cardinal, even the pope if that’s the case. Bill Cosby is 80 years old and stood trial, age should have nothing to do with these dudes being allowed to get away with these crimes.
The government should shut this organization down because it has been committing crimes for decades.
What are your thoughts?

I agree with this. And when we are at it, better also shut down the other Christian denominations and the Islam. If popes and bishops are abusing kids `normal` people follow them.
[I was in a Baptist Church for a few years, and one person who was there for many years told me "stvdv it's not only catholic church where stuff happens, it's better you don't know all the details"]

In Hinduism this era is called "Kali Yuga", meaning the worst of the worst. Sai Baba said that in previous Yuga there was only abuse/fights between countries (Treta Yuga) or Families (Dvapara Yuga). But in Kali Yuga the abuse/fight is within the same family. So it is not only in all religions, it is in every family. Of course people don't like to talk about that, easier to see mistakes in others.