The Catholic Church should be shut down

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This is new to me.

A network of baby trafficking is believed to have involved a vast network of doctors, nurses, nuns and priests. Although there is no official figure, the SOS Stolen Babies association estimates that as many as 300,000 babies were taken from their parents in Spain between 1939 and the 1990s.

The 'stolen babies' trial in Spain finally shines a light on a scandal that cannot be forgotten

The campaign began under Franco, but continued right into the 1990s: in Catholic hospitals, if the family was considered “undesirable” or “inferior,” when the woman came in and gave birth, she would be told that her baby died at birth. Meanwhile, the baby would be snuck over to another couple, who would be registered as the baby’s biological parents.

Kidnapping and human trafficking on an industrial scale.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

It's simple. The Catholic church is far from the the only organisation to have been discovered to have turned a blind eye to sexual abuse. Many (all?) other churches have been similarly caught out, and so have many other organisations and individuals, ranging from charities to schools, social services, politicians, celebrities and shadowy groups using the internet. It is plain that this evil has been widespread, throughout society.

It seems to me that fixing on one organisation would be arbitrary and would not deal with the numerous other avenues for abuse that exist - or have existed - up to now.

I see. So unless we also mention every other problem organisation in the same breath we mention the RCC it's bigotry? If we focus on a single organisation for valid reasons (we're not doing this because '**** the Pope') then we're being silly?

This sort of logic would see you get up on stage at a Cancer Research fundraiser and grab the mic to tell everyone that cancer research is narrowing its scope to too great a degree; they should focus on curing all diseases instead of just cancer. I'm not comparing the Church to a disease - it's an analogy trying to highlight the fact that narrowing the scope of one's efforts can be a good thing.

In the wider context of global paedophilia; nobody in their right mind would say the Roman Catholic Church is the only organisation with this problem. However, with its history, the sheer scope of its influence, reach & privilege in society & national governance at all levels in so many countries, the (presumed) vast amount of wealth & property it controls and just how far up the hierarchy complicity in facilitating child abuse goes as well as how long this has been happening - it is completely fair to say that the Church is singularly the largest part of this problem. This means it will be afforded a level of attention that other organisations would not; because it already enjoys protections and tolerance to a degree other organisations do not.

P.S. I wonder if I am alone in finding this Ringo Starr song creepy: Ringo Starr - You're Sixteen Lyrics | MetroLyrics. But that was written back in 1970........

I'm not going to listen but I'd probably find it creepy too.

 

[columbus]

I agree. Any church or organization where sexual abuse of children takes place and is covered up should be shut down while the perpetrators, along with those covering for them should face the severest of consequences.

That would include the Methodist Church.

My partner was "broken in" about 10 years old by the youth pastor of the Methodist Church. When he told "the authorities" about it they launched into action. They made him apologize to Brother Marion and promise never to tell such lies again.

The next time Brother Marion did him up the butt, he was angry. It was a punishment eff. Dear Brother Marion, Methodist Youth Minister, still lives around here. If the Methodist Church ever did anything about him I don't know about it. As far as I can tell, the Methodists protected him until he just got too old to do it anymore.
Tom

 

[exchemist]

I see. So unless we also mention every other problem organisation in the same breath we mention the RCC it's bigotry? If we focus on a single organisation for valid reasons (we're not doing this because '**** the Pope') then we're being silly?

This sort of logic would see you get up on stage at a Cancer Research fundraiser and grab the mic to tell everyone that cancer research is narrowing its scope to too great a degree; they should focus on curing all diseases instead of just cancer. I'm not comparing the Church to a disease - it's an analogy trying to highlight the fact that narrowing the scope of one's efforts can be a good thing.

In the wider context of global paedophilia; nobody in their right mind would say the Roman Catholic Church is the only organisation with this problem. However, with its history, the sheer scope of its influence, reach & privilege in society & national governance at all levels in so many countries, the (presumed) vast amount of wealth & property it controls and just how far up the hierarchy complicity in facilitating child abuse goes as well as how long this has been happening - it is completely fair to say that the Church is singularly the largest part of this problem. This means it will be afforded a level of attention that other organisations would not; because it already enjoys protections and tolerance to a degree other organisations do not.




I'm not going to listen but I'd probably find it creepy too.

My point, which it seems I now have to spell out, is that if you think shutting organisations down is the solution, then - assuming you don't want to fall foul of the law - you have to shut down a large number of organisations, not just pick on one that you happen to dislike anyway. Personally I don't see that shutting down organisations is the answer, given the widespread nature of the problem.

The answer seems to me to be what is in fact being done, which is publicising and shaming the organisations concerned and establishing a body of best practice for preventing it in future: what is generally known nowadays as "safeguarding".

 

[England my lionheart]

The Roman Catholic Church should not be permitted to operate any longer. It’s a crime ridden organization masquerading as a religion. The sex abuse cases that continue to pour into the media are horrific and mind blowing. Mind blowing that the cover ups are all through the hierarchy. Any other organization in the secular sphere would be shut down. And people would be arrested. Everyone who was complicit in this, should be arrested. Every priest, every bishop, every cardinal, even the pope if that’s the case. Bill Cosby is 80 years old and stood trial, age should have nothing to do with these dudes being allowed to get away with these crimes.

The government should shut this organization down because it has been committing crimes for decades.

What are your thoughts?

Although i would like that too it's easier said than done,it's a seriously powerful organisation with corruption throughout its history, the accusations against pope pius xii colluding with Hitler which is big enough but the discusting abuse that this organisation is riddled with of innocent vulnerable children from people in positions of trust is truly sickening.

The Catholic Church has always had this darkside, the jesuits roaming around South America spreading their religion in the new world like it or not, the inquisition and the Imo unnatural life of the clerics and the strange world of the confessional, I lost a good friend who was a Catholic who seemed bogged down with guilt, it seems that that religion is about heaping guilt on its followers whatever.

There is no doubt that not all priests are paedophiles or its followers condone it but its unnatural life of the people in a position of trust right to the top is a big factor plus the far politics of that all powerful church and opus dei means no shut down for that organisation.
.

 

[Nigel Hoath]

My point, which it seems I now have to spell out, is that if you think shutting organisations down is the solution, then - assuming you don't want to fall foul of the law - you have to shut down a large number of organisations, not just pick on one that you happen to dislike anyway. Personally I don't see that shutting down organisations is the answer, given the widespread nature of the problem.

The answer seems to me to be what is in fact being done, which is publicising and shaming the organisations concerned and establishing a body of best practice for preventing it in future: what is generally known nowadays as "safeguarding".

exchemist you seem to want to take the easy and longterm route, and while you do so will not more evils happen?

The fact is that the hierachy of the RC has a system that it backs and defends, that makes the people they train likely to offend in large numbers. They apologise but never do anything to stop training pedophiles. So they actively encourage the practise. No one wants the RC made illegal. Just take out its power that furthers evil and pass control to new structures who actually believe child molesting is a crime that shouldn't happen, And get them to state that they will ensure they do not encourage such behaviour in the future (life imprisonment if they do). It really is that simple. Then move on to the next worst institution that guarantees such evils.

In parallel judge individual offenders as the criminals they are. As happens now. But at least one group of criminals would not find it so easy to go on the run using a well organised and funded escape route.

 

[Nigel Hoath]

I should add to my previous post that most police forces prioritise crime investigations based on the level of the crime and the chances of conviction. I think RC qualifies on both counts.

 

[Debater Slayer]

***Mod Post***

Thread moved to Religious Debates per staff consensus.​

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

My point, which it seems I now have to spell out, is that if you think shutting organisations down is the solution, then - assuming you don't want to fall foul of the law - you have to shut down a large number of organisations, not just pick on one that you happen to dislike anyway.

I understood that's what you were getting at. What I don't understand is why it might be discrimination to target the biggest & most problematic organisation first. That's not discrimination by any reasonable definition - it's prioritising our efforts to stamp out paedophilia. Is there any reason we shouldn't focus on the biggest organisation first?

Personally I don't see that shutting down organisations is the answer, given the widespread nature of the problem.

The answer seems to me to be what is in fact being done, which is publicising and shaming the organisations concerned and establishing a body of best practice for preventing it in future: what is generally known nowadays as "safeguarding".

I can see a number of problems with this:

1. It leaves the current power structure in place which will allow said organisations to continue self-policing their problems brushing their problems under the carpet;
2. It doesn't actually stop offences that are happening just now;
3. It does nothing to punish criminal behaviour on the part of organisations and individuals that has already happened through the vehicle of the law as should be done.

Recent history has shown us that organisations with a level of autonomy & influence comparable to the RCC can never be trusted to self-police. The pace of the (I suspect imaginary) reforms allegedly taking place within its ranks is slow to the extent that molesters and their enablers among the upper echelons are dying before the full extent of their crimes are uncovered so they can be brought to trial.

 

[1213]

...Any other organization in the secular sphere would be shut down. ...

I don’t believe that. However, the bad actions are not from the religion, so the religion should not be judged because some have done bad things.

 

[james dixon]

My point, which it seems I now have to spell out, is that if you think shutting organisations down is the solution, then - assuming you don't want to fall foul of the law - you have to shut down a large number of organisations

When it it comes to shutting down bad organizations here are a few to consider----------

[1] Hagana, Irgun and Stern gangs who threw bombs into buses, assassinated British and other officials and murdered Palestinians way before the Palestinians retaliated in kind. (what goes around comes around)

[2] IDF snipers picking out and shooting “children” in cold blood.

[3] Entire Palestinian villages whipped out, men, women and children and then building illegal settlements on top of the rubble.
https://rense.com//general21/pastzionist.htm

If this doesn’t sicken you then you are part of the problem.

But don’t just reject or accept what I have posted.

Google “Israel shooting children”

Google “Israel illegal settlements”

Once done, come back and try to defend what you saw/read------

No wait, the Hagana gang was renamed the IDF, so it will be hard but not impossible to shut them down too

 

[james dixon]

I don’t believe that. However, the bad actions are not from the religion

I have to disagree, in some cases it is the religion doing the bad acting

Google "spitting on Christians" if you want to know the truth.

 

[robocop (actually)]

The Roman Catholic Church should not be permitted to operate any longer. It’s a crime ridden organization masquerading as a religion. The sex abuse cases that continue to pour into the media are horrific and mind blowing. Mind blowing that the cover ups are all through the hierarchy. Any other organization in the secular sphere would be shut down. And people would be arrested. Everyone who was complicit in this, should be arrested. Every priest, every bishop, every cardinal, even the pope if that’s the case. Bill Cosby is 80 years old and stood trial, age should have nothing to do with these dudes being allowed to get away with these crimes.

The government should shut this organization down because it has been committing crimes for decades.

What are your thoughts?

My thoughts are that, while horrific, my understanding is that this is a very small percentage of priests being pedophiles.

I better be clear though that I have zero tolerance for pedophilia.

 

[oldbadger]

The Roman Catholic Church should not be permitted to operate any longer. It’s a crime ridden organization masquerading as a religion. The sex abuse cases that continue to pour into the media are horrific and mind blowing. Mind blowing that the cover ups are all through the hierarchy. Any other organization in the secular sphere would be shut down. And people would be arrested. Everyone who was complicit in this, should be arrested. Every priest, every bishop, every cardinal, even the pope if that’s the case. Bill Cosby is 80 years old and stood trial, age should have nothing to do with these dudes being allowed to get away with these crimes.

The government should shut this organization down because it has been committing crimes for decades.

What are your thoughts?

I have read some of the above reports.
No, I do not believe that the Catholic Church should be shut down.
There must be millions of very decent, honest people in this Church.

Catch criminals, indict them, try them, convict them, sentence them, but let's not smash up a whole Church because of bad people who have hidden within.

If we did that we wouldn't have police forces left, even.

 

[Apologes]

If all you see when you look at the Catholic Church are the sexual abuse cases then I'm not sure what to tell you.

Speaking of those, you're right that those involved should face trial. Shutting down the Churh as a whole? That's not happening.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

The fact the Catholics are being exposed at this time means they made a powerful enemy angry.

God?

The Church is the body of christ.

The very, VERY, VEEEERRRRRRRYYYYYY abused body of Christ.

Romans with a cat o' nine tails can't match what some churches have done to poor Jesus and his followers.

But, yes, when you insult the Church, you insult peoples relationship with christ, charities, and its allies.

If insulting the Church is insulting its congregation, then the congregation, so eager to be equated to the whole, must accept responsibility for the church's sins. Maybe we need to take the children away from the parents who let their kids go to those churches.

Basically blaming the murderer and throwing him to the death penalty rather than addressing the crimes by having programs etc he can do in jail and even ministries to change his values in life for the benefit of other people.

How many people does the murderer have to murder before you realize that maybe sticking the fox in the hen house is dumb?

We're not talking about people getting caught committing adultery or shoplifting or whatever. We're talking about RAPING KIDS. It's disturbing it can be dismissed as "politics".

Let people decide for themselves and vote with their feet rather than asking governments to make decisions on their behalf.

So, when believers choose not to believe certain religious founders, they shouldn't have been blamed for voting with their feet?

This is behaviour of oppressive regimes, like some communist countries.

Communist countries shut down churches because they annoy the government. Annoying the government is not the same thing as RAPING KIDS.

Now if only he had the power to do something about it...

Jesus said you'd regret it if you hurt kids, but he never really punished anyone who did so.

Thats bias and speaks about a lot of people who do have a correct relationship with christ. How do you speak for other peopls relationship with christ?

Am I to stand silent while kids are being neglected without food or water or shelter or clean clothes or whatever, raped, tortured, locked up in closets, KILLED, all because "hey, that's their relationship with Christ"? Should we just let evil swim on by because God alone will judge? Do we not have any imperative to protect the innocent from such things?

What about "if your right arm causes you to sin" and all that? Clearly, religion is causing people to sin. Per Jesus' OWN LIPS, it should be cut off. Better to be an atheist in heaven than a theist in hell.

People support the body of christ not the sins of the Church.

If a baker says baking a cake participates in a gay wedding, how can giving money to a church that condones RAPING KIDS not be tantamount to giving them the kids as sex slaves?

Most people Catholics I know don't see their church as being oppressive at all and nor do I.

They would if the church would stop hushing all the victims.

They choose to be there, find it meaningful, and that it meets their spiritual and social needs.

Apparently their spiritual teaching includes CHILD RAPE is "politics". I'm sorry, but as an abuse victim (not necessarily from church, but family and elsewhere), there is NO justification for it. They need to be sterilized and never see the light of day again. We cannot say children are valued when stuff like this goes on with the tacit approval of authorities and their followers. Far too many children die, not just the RCC, but many religions, because "God said so." Well, let God pay their court fees, because they should be taken to task for what they've done.

I was a psychiatry intern a few years back involved with the treatment of this guy in his 40s who had been sexually abused by priests in an orphanage run by the Catholics. The orphanage turned out to be one of these institutions where the Paedophile priests were attracted too, so it is well known that many boys were sexually abused over years by a handful of priests. These were vulnerable kids and my patient couldn't cope with life. He became a serial arsonist targeting churches. Whenever he got stressed out, he set fire to another church, ended up in prison where he was provided food and shelter. He had spent most of his life in prison and set fire to many churches by the time I saw him. Despite my best efforts I have to acknowledge in hindsight there was little we could do to help change anything for this guy. The Catholics paid for his treatment, fully acknowledging what had happened and it was a matter of public record that the priests from this facility had been convicted.

The entire plot of Exorcist 3 could've been avoided had the Gemini Killer's dad, who was an abusive preacher.

What Faith or spiritual path will enable us to progress in both this world and the world to come?

I'm not convinced there are many current ones who measure up.

It’s easy to point a finger at others but how does your religion and mine stack up if they were being investigated?

I have judged my religion's tree by its fruit, found it wanting, and like Jesus said, cut it down from my orchard as it did not give good fruit.

Whatever the numbers of those involved in such abuse, it is far too many, and if any had more power over children to effect such abuse I can't think of any apart from their parents. And I suspect it is this power that might victimise so many when we know it goes on wherever children and adults are put together. Atrocious that such abuse is swept under the carpet to avoid the consequences to the particular religion though - which we know tends to happen in most religions.

I honestly can't decide what's more immoral, when people do that kind of thing or when people try to downplay that kind of thing.

Age 10 I decided "I will never marry and no kids". That idea didn't come falling from the blue sky. I must have seen stuff that was not too compelling to me. Would be an interesting poll "How many hours you are HAPPY in your marriage per day (no fights, no headaches etc...)".

It took being trapped in a room for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, for 9 months of the little jerks to convince ME not to get pregnant, if I have to rip out my uterus myself with my own bare hands.

I'm not going to listen but I'd probably find it creepy too.

I listen to the oldies station even though I'm 40 and grew up in the 80s. I just like 50's-80's music. Still, there are a LOT of songs that make my jaw drop. "Baby it's cold outside" essentially has a guy deciding to date rape a girl. There's this series of songs about this jerkwad named Johnny who cheated on the singer and then she took him back and such and I'm like DON'T YOU HAVE STANDARDS?

*sighs*

 

[Unveiled Artist]

God?


The very, VERY, VEEEERRRRRRRYYYYYY abused body of Christ.

Romans with a cat o' nine tails can't match what some churches have done to poor Jesus and his followers.


If insulting the Church is insulting its congregation, then the congregation, so eager to be equated to the whole, must accept responsibility for the church's sins. Maybe we need to take the children away from the parents who let their kids go to those churches.


How many people does the murderer have to murder before you realize that maybe sticking the fox in the hen house is dumb?

We're not talking about people getting caught committing adultery or shoplifting or whatever. We're talking about RAPING KIDS. It's disturbing it can be dismissed as "politics".


So, when believers choose not to believe certain religious founders, they shouldn't have been blamed for voting with their feet?


Communist countries shut down churches because they annoy the government. Annoying the government is not the same thing as RAPING KIDS.


Jesus said you'd regret it if you hurt kids, but he never really punished anyone who did so.


Am I to stand silent while kids are being neglected without food or water or shelter or clean clothes or whatever, raped, tortured, locked up in closets, KILLED, all because "hey, that's their relationship with Christ"? Should we just let evil swim on by because God alone will judge? Do we not have any imperative to protect the innocent from such things?

What about "if your right arm causes you to sin" and all that? Clearly, religion is causing people to sin. Per Jesus' OWN LIPS, it should be cut off. Better to be an atheist in heaven than a theist in hell.


If a baker says baking a cake participates in a gay wedding, how can giving money to a church that condones RAPING KIDS not be tantamount to giving them the kids as sex slaves?


They would if the church would stop hushing all the victims.


Apparently their spiritual teaching includes CHILD RAPE is "politics". I'm sorry, but as an abuse victim (not necessarily from church, but family and elsewhere), there is NO justification for it. They need to be sterilized and never see the light of day again. We cannot say children are valued when stuff like this goes on with the tacit approval of authorities and their followers. Far too many children die, not just the RCC, but many religions, because "God said so." Well, let God pay their court fees, because they should be taken to task for what they've done.


The entire plot of Exorcist 3 could've been avoided had the Gemini Killer's dad, who was an abusive preacher.


I'm not convinced there are many current ones who measure up.


I have judged my religion's tree by its fruit, found it wanting, and like Jesus said, cut it down from my orchard as it did not give good fruit.


I honestly can't decide what's more immoral, when people do that kind of thing or when people try to downplay that kind of thing.


It took being trapped in a room for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, for 9 months of the little jerks to convince ME not to get pregnant, if I have to rip out my uterus myself with my own bare hands.


I listen to the oldies station even though I'm 40 and grew up in the 80s. I just like 50's-80's music. Still, there are a LOT of songs that make my jaw drop. "Baby it's cold outside" essentially has a guy deciding to date rape a girl. There's this series of songs about this jerkwad named Johnny who cheated on the singer and then she took him back and such and I'm like DON'T YOU HAVE STANDARDS?

*sighs*

I'll come back but I don't see the church so negative. I try not to see anyone nor anything negative even if my feelings and experiences justify my negativity that doesn't make it right nor moral.

In that light, sin is a sin. I don't mind supporting the Church because I'm supporting a body of people with whom if I practiced actually are helped by the church. If it shut down, you know how many people would suffer by the hands of the revengeful?! Better to address the problem.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

And the best way to address the problem is to get their attention by hitting them in the pocketbook. If everyonr tried it you would see quick results.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I am SOO glad I wasnt indoctrinated nor have any negative experiences in The Church. Id already have a heart attack and commit myself in the looney bin.

Romans with a cat o' nine tails can't match what some churches have done to poor Jesus and his followers.

Are you going by their teachings or the people?

If insulting the Church is insulting its congregation, then the congregation, so eager to be equated to the whole, must accept responsibility for the church's sins. Maybe we need to take the children away from the parents who let their kids go to those churches.

Everyone is responsible for their own sins.

How many people does the murderer have to murder before you realize that maybe sticking the fox in the hen house is dumb?

Hm? catholics arent dumb. They, I hope, just view christians in the light of christ and people who grow in christ are ot sinless. If anything, like any other sinner, they help the church right its wrongs.

You gotta watch this movie. It is SOOOO sad that I cant watch it all the time just once a year maybe. Priest (1994) - IMDb but you gotta watch it without being critical.

We're not talking about people getting caught committing adultery or shoplifting or whatever. We're talking about RAPING KIDS. It's disturbing it can be dismissed as "politics".

Sin is a sin. If I judged which sins are worse, thats my being a hypocrite. Murder is murder. Rape is Rape. These actions have nothing to do with the age of the victim.

Am I to stand silent while kids are being neglected without food or water or shelter or clean clothes or whatever, raped, tortured, locked up in closets, KILLED, all because "hey, that's their relationship with Christ"? Should we just let evil swim on by because God alone will judge? Do we not have any imperative to protect the innocent from such things?

I dont see the correlation. I dont believe god exists; so, the question doesnt make sense to me.

What about "if your right arm causes you to sin" and all that? Clearly, religion is causing people to sin. Per Jesus' OWN LIPS, it should be cut off. Better to be an atheist in heaven than a theist in hell.

The Church isnt perfect. Why are you upset at the Church but then if someone rapped an adult, there is no fuss? What about The Church and the age of the victim make one sin more popular to critize than the other???

If a baker says baking a cake participates in a gay wedding, how can giving money to a church that condones RAPING KIDS not be tantamount to giving them the kids as sex slaves?

Huh?????

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Apparently their spiritual teaching includes CHILD RAPE is "politics".

WAIT

Show me in the bible and the CCC and in Mass that Child Rape is included in their spiritual teachings