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The Chain of Infallibility

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Actually it doe. Twice Gods tell us what He starts in us He will perfect until Jesus returns---Phil 1:6 and Heb 12:2
If that is true then what are these for?

2 Peter 2:21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

Hebrews 6:4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left

James 4:17 Therefore, whoever knows the right thing to do, yet fails to do it, is guilty of sin
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
--A priest, a sinful human being can determine penance for out sins. In I Jn 1:9 there is only forgiveness and cleansing from God, no penance.
In Catholic theology, it is God that forgives, not the priest. The priest is only a conduit, because when a person sins, they not only hurt themselves, but also the entire community. It's theological justification is when Jesus told the apostles that whatever sins they bind, that will be bound in heaven; and what they forgive will be forgiven in heaven. The procedure for confession changed over time but was always present.[/quote]


--Taking the Lord's supper is closed to all non-Catholics.
Mt 26:26--.
.Only because other churches broke away from that communion, and the word "communion" means "those in community".
--Mary remained a virgin---Mt 13:55-56, Jn 7:3-5, Gal 1:18-19.
The church long taught that Mary remained a virgin even when that question came up in the late 2nd century. The reference to Jesus' "brothers" may instead refer to his male cousins since the Greek word is the same for both.

The is no Biblical evidence for "apostolic succession." This is plainly evidenced by the fact that even some called apostles in the Bible are not included in the Catholic list. Barnabus was an apostle(Acts 14:14). Is he on the list?
It is mentioned several times in Acts and many times in the epistles, since these refer to those appointed by the apostles, thus "apostolic succession". It was this that was the indicator of the true church, not heretical churches, and it was this group down the road in the 4th century that chose the canon of the bible you're using, as other groups had their own bibles.

Those who reject the authority if the pope and Catholic theology are called heretics. Will they be saved?
"Heretics" only applied to those who left the CC, and that term is not at all used nowadays, nor does it carry any judgementalism as far as one's salvation is concerned.

Your question I already answered in my previous post.

BTW, let me just add that Catholics have and are allowed much more variance of opinions than probably people realize, and I have found over my years that actually there's more political-correctness by far found in most forms of Protestantism, especially those who refer to themselves as "evangelicals" and/or "fundamentalists".
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
In Catholic theology, it is God that forgives, not the priest. The priest is only a conduit, because when a person sins, they not only hurt themselves, but also the entire community. It's theological justification is when Jesus told the apostles that whatever sins they bind, that will be bound in heaven; and what they forgive will be forgiven in heaven. The procedure for confession changed over time but was always present.

Let me start by saying I am not throwing stones at the Catholic church, although it probably seems like I am. The members of any religion need to know is what is taught is from God or from man. The only way we can know if it is from God, is if it is in His word.


The discussion is not about what is done, it is about what is done that is not Biblical. The requirement to confess does not required going through a conduit. We can and should go directly to God. Part of the discussion was about a man, determining penance for sin. The Bible does not say penance is necessary. When we confess our sins, God forgets them(Jer 31:34). He doe snot treat us as our sins deserve(Ps 103:10). The Biblical procedure for confession is like the Nike motto---just do it.

There is no Scripture that binding and forgiving sins was passed on to anyone other than the original apostles. It was not given to Paul, and certainly if anyone should have been give that ability, he would have been included. IMO God gave the apostles the knowledge to know what was a sin and what was not. That would mean they could not say something is a sin, that God doesn't say is a sin. No pope had the authority to make eating meat on a day of the week was not only a sin, he made it a mortal sin.

Only because other churches broke away from that communion, and the word "communion" means "those in community".

No protestant church as broken away from the Lord's supper. WE follow the instructions given by Jesus in the Bible. The Christian community is not limited to Catholics. It includes all believers no matter which denomination they belong to.

The church long taught that Mary remained a virgin even when that question came up in the late 2nd century. The reference to Jesus' "brothers" may instead refer to his male cousins since the Greek word is the same for both.

The word "brother" does not refer to cousins. It can be used in the sense of a "brother" in the faith, but other verses take it out of that context.

It is mentioned several times in Acts and many times in the epistles, since these refer to those appointed by the apostles, thus "apostolic succession". It was this that was the indicator of the true church, not heretical churches, and it was this group down the road in the 4th century that chose the canon of the bible you're using, as other groups had their own bibles.

No apostle ever chose someone to be an apostle. The original apostles did not chose Matthais, because they knew they could not look into the heart of the men put forward to take the place of Judas. They turned the decision over to God(Acts 24), and God chose him. "Apostleship is a spiritual gift(Eph 4:11) and that is determined by The Holy Spirit, not by men. Not only that, teh Catholic list doe snot include some in the Bible who are called apostles.

"Heretics" only applied to those who left the CC, and that term is not at all used nowadays, nor does it carry any judgementalism as far as one's salvation is concerned.

I made my comment from memory which is dangerous these days. I will check into that and if my memory was right, I will get back to you. Being a heretic will affect one's salvation.

Your question I already answered in my previous post.

BTW, let me just add that Catholics have and are allowed much more variance of opinions than probably people realize, and I have found over my years that actually there's more political-correctness by far found in most forms of Protestantism, especially those who refer to themselves as "evangelicals" and/or "fundamentalists".

That may be true in liberal denominations, but it is not true in conservative ones.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
That is you leaning on you own understanding. Proverbs 3:5 Trust in Yahweh with all your heart, and don't lean on your own understanding.


Seeing how leaders treat others is not based on my understanding, it is based on my observations.

Also this: Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? YOU CAN?

Of course. The verse applies to all hearts, not just to some. All I have to do is believe what it says , which is reinforced by Rom 3:10-12
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
All the sheep. Right? A person who takes the lead in telling us what God's Word means might treat every adult in his congregation appropriately but might use one young child the wrong way.

Then he may not be a sheep. Being a religious leader is not an indication the person is a sheep---by heir fruits you shall know them---Lord did we not do things in your name? Depart from Me, you who practice wickedness---Not everyone who says Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven.

You do not know about it. Is he still a sheep and might you forgive rape because he talks so very well?

I can oly forgive what he does to me, not to others. If he sincerely confess the sin and repents, God will forgive him. If God forgives, him, so will I. My sins might be differnt than his, but they are still sins. God forgave David for murder and adultery. He will forgie any sin sincerely confessed.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
For followers of revealed, faith-based religions (on the world stage, this generally refers to the Abrahamic religions) how do you handle the issue of infallibility?

What I mean is this: if your god was indeed perfect, and intended for his followers to correctly understand his perfect message, then he must have preserved a chain of infallibility which extends from god himself to the follower.

E.g. A "perfect" god must ensure that his chosen prophet is infallible; the prophet's writings (the holy books) must also be infallible; those who preserve those books must also be infallible; those who translates those books must also be infallible; those who expound the content of those books must also be infallible; those who read the books or the translations (the disciple) must also be infallible.

If there is any failure in that chain, does it not inherently prove that the imagined originator (the deity) is imperfect and fallible?

(It seems the Roman Catholic Church understood this problem from early on, and determined that infallibility proceeds through the Church, the Popes and Councils, the Bishops and their Priests - the authorized preservers, translators, and expounders of the "Message", etc.)

No church or person is infallible. Only God is. There is no chain of infalibility. WE make the Bible, inspired, inerrant and infallible by doctrine, not by a chain of sinful, errant men.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
The chain of infallibility!

There is no such a chain. According to Ecclesiastes 7:20, "There has never been a man upon earth to have done only good and never sinned." That includes Jesus who was a man upon earth for 33 years of his short life. It also goes thus: There has never been a man upon earth who has succeeded in every thing and never failed.

That does not apply to Jesus as the Bible clearly says.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
None of Them contradict One another.

They only contradict the interpretations of the followers which are man made. The Jews crucified Christ because of their ignorance of their own Holy Books yet they claimed to be knowledgeable. But they were proven not to be.

When it says Jesus turned water into wine no interpretation is needed. Either He did or He didn't.

Interpretations are just that. The Manifestations only teach truth not interpretations. But people judge the Manifestations by their own limited understanding and when they find it not in accordance with their own understanding they reject the truth and call it falsehood.

Speak for yourself. If I don't understand something in the Bible I still accept it as the truth.

The Jews did this with Christ. The Christians did the same with Muhammad. All pride in human learning and no humility before God.

What you said about the Jews is right. What have Christians not accepted about Muhammad?

Everyone thinks He knows more about God than God's Manifestations but they don't.

By rejecting one Manifestation one is rejecting all of them and carrying oneself proud before God. To reject Christ was rejecting Moses also because He foretold Christ. And so on.

People tend to pick and choose what they feel makes them feel unique and superior to others which is really an ego trip.

Again speak for your self, unless you haved the abiiyt to look into the hears of others and know what they think.

If one is sincere and humble he will never reject any Manifestation of God. He will always try and see where he might be wrong and correct it but pride says 'I am right and all others wrong and false'. This is the ego talking or Satan take your pick.

I hope I am wrong but most of what you have just said, seems very prideful to me.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
I've verified suffering for myself,

That is a no-brainer. Even one with a low 2 digit I can do that.

I've verified the validity of the Four Noble Truths, I've verified the efficacy of the Eightfold Path, I've verified the process of rebirth, etc.

I am not familiar with the first 2 you mention.

What is the process of rebirth and how did you verify it?
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
When it says Jesus turned water into wine no interpretation is needed. Either He did or He didn't.



Speak for yourself. If I don't understand something in the Bible I still accept it as the truth.



What you said about the Jews is right. What have Christians not accepted about Muhammad?



Again speak for your self, unless you haved the abiiyt to look into the hears of others and know what they think.



I hope I am wrong but most of what you have just said, seems very prideful to me.

I too agree that the Bible is the truth.

I was just pointing out that when a Messiah like Jesus appears, the followers of the previous religion think they know more than Him and when they find He doesn't match their own limited understanding of their own scriptures then they crucified Him. Had they been humble they would have accepted Jesus. That was my main point.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
There is no Scripture that binding and forgiving sins was passed on to anyone other than the original apostles.
Do you really think people stopped sinning? If Jesus felt it was necessary for the apostles to deal with sins, then what logic would there be in that all such action would end as the apostles gradually died off?

On top of that, we well know that confession was in place in the 2nd century church, although the pattern was that one confessed to the entire congregation when they tried to convert, with the bishop presiding. The bishop then set the time for penance. However, that procedure created some problems, which I can get into if you want.

But another point you miss is that sin not only affects the individual but the community as a whole.

No protestant church as broken away from the Lord's supper. WE follow the instructions given by Jesus in the Bible. The Christian community is not limited to Catholics.
You simply do not understand what "community" is in this regard. For example, Luther did not want to break with the CC because he well know that the church could not be "one body", as Paul referred to it, if it splintered into multiple denominations. Luther's actions was a protest w/o intent to stay apart from the CC, but things quickly got out of hand.

The word "brother" does not refer to cousins.
If you have a concordance, look up the English word "brother" as it is translated into Koine Greek and you'll see just how wrong you are. Since you obviously didn't look it up, if you have trouble finding it just let me know and I'll help you.

No apostle ever chose someone to be an apostle.
That's not the point. Those that were appointed, including bishops, were given charge of their respective communities, which including dealing with the conversions and what to do in terms of dealing with infractions ("sin"). One can easily see this process in Acts and many of the epistles.

That may be true in liberal denominations, but it is not true in conservative ones
False, which should be common sense. "Liberal" actually means "to be flexible", and the more liberal churches usually don't have the "purges" that one occasionally sees in the more conservative churches.
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
No church or person is infallible. Only God is. There is no chain of infalibility. WE make the Bible, inspired, inerrant and infallible by doctrine, not by a chain of sinful, errant men.
Do you mean that you yourself declare the Bible "inspired, inerrant, and infallable"?
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
That is a no-brainer. Even one with a low 2 digit I can do that.
Yes, and that's part of the inherent beauty of the Dhamma.

I am not familiar with the first 2 you mention.
The Four Noble Truths are declarations about our state of Being: there's suffering, suffering arises by craving, suffering ceases by the cessation of craving, and the Path which ceases craving is the Eightfold Path.

The Eightfold Path can be summarized as virtue, concentration/meditation, and wisdom.

What is the process of rebirth and how did you verify it?
I can see rebirth happening this very moment in my life. ;) I can see how my 30 year old self is a rebirth of all of my former selves (29.9 year old self, 25 year old self, 7 year old self, etc.). I am neither completely the same nor am I completely different from my 7 year old self. All the moments in my lifestream are connected through ongoing rebirth.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Yes, and that's part of the inherent beauty of the Dhamma.

The Four Noble Truths are declarations about our state of Being: there's suffering, suffering arises by craving, suffering ceases by the cessation of craving, and the Path which ceases craving is the Eightfold Path.

The Eightfold Path can be summarized as virtue, concentration/meditation, and wisdom.

I can see rebirth happening this very moment in my life. ;) I can see how my 30 year old self is a rebirth of all of my former selves (29.9 year old self, 25 year old self, 7 year old self, etc.). I am neither completely the same nor am I completely different from my 7 year old self. All the moments in my lifestream are connected through ongoing rebirth.

Hello Buddhist. I have many Buddhist books but as far as officially recognized English translations, which do you recommend with regard to the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path? Also the story of Buddha? I have a couple of Dhamapaddas but I'd like to know of all these scriptures which are considered the best translations in English? I'd like to buy them in digital form.

Also, there are different sects of Buddhism like Theravada and Mayahana and Pure Sect etc. is there any one that you accept and any one you reject because often I meet people who might say they reject something I mention because it belongs to a different sect. To me a Buddhist is a Buddhist but clearly there's different beliefs among the sects. How do I tell them apart?

Take your time. I believe in the Buddha. I just want to learn much more as one can never stop learning. Many thanks.
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
Hello Buddhist. I have many Buddhist books but as far as officially recognized English translations, which do you recommend with regard to the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path? Also the story of Buddha? I have a couple of Dhamapaddas but I'd like to know of all these scriptures which are considered the best translations in English? I'd like to buy them in digital form.
I accept the earliest Buddhist scriptures (the Pali canon). In the three-fold partition of the Pali canon, the partition usually of greatest interest to lay disciples is the suttas (sermons of the Buddha) - the other two partitions are usually mainly of interest to monastics (monastic disciplinary code, and phenomenology).

The best translations of the suttas in English are the "Teachings of the Buddha" series, published by Wisdom Publications. As there are literally thousands of suttas (divided into five books, four of which are published in whole in the series), you might wish to start with an anthology - "In the Buddha's Words" translated by Bhikku Bodhi; it explains the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path in detail. This book gives an exceptional overview of the Buddha's teachings, with wonderfully written introductions by Bhikku Bodhi, followed by the translated texts of the carefully selected early suttas themselves.

The Dhammapada is one part of the fifth book of the sutta collection. I highly recommend Glenn Wallis' translation of the Dhammapada. He provides a good balance between accuracy and poetic license, with a comprehensive commentary clarifying points in the text along with other information tying the verses to other suttas in the canon.

I have both "In the Buddha's Words" and that Dhammapada both in physical form and on my e-reader, and I've read them multiple times, and continue to do so.

Also, there are different sects of Buddhism like Theravada and Mayahana and Pure Sect etc. is there any one that you accept and any one you reject because often I meet people who might say they reject something I mention because it belongs to a different sect. To me a Buddhist is a Buddhist but clearly there's different beliefs among the sects. How do I tell them apart?
There are four major divisions between Buddhists.

1. Early Buddhists - We accept only the earliest texts (established immediately after the historical Buddha's passing) as authoritative. In those texts, the Buddha is recorded as emphasizing that his disciples must verify his claims for ourselves. And so we emphasize actual practice of the Eightfold Path for the purpose of self-verification of what those texts teach, and for self-enlightenment. Hierarchies are irrelevant, as everyone must individually work towards self-realization. Early Buddhism is most prominent today in the form of the Forest Tradition.

2. Theravada - They also accept the earliest texts, but they also accept the Visuddhimagga, a commentary, as the one and only authoritative understanding and interpretation of the earliest texts. The Visuddhimagga was written by Buddhaghosa, a monk who lived ~1000 years after the the historical Buddha. They tend to emphasize study and knowledge of the texts, instead of actual practice. Hierarchies are often prominent in Theravada.

3. Mahayana - They tend to focus on later texts, usually written hundreds of years after the historical Buddha's passing. Their sutras generally emphasize a multiplicity of celestial bodhisattvas and celestial Buddhas - much like a polytheistic pantheon of deities - and instead of personal transformation (via personal practice of the Eightfold Path), faith instead on these bodhisattvas and buddhas is said to bring devotees to their heavens, pure lands, and nirvana. Faith is often expressed in worship, or chanting. Hierarches and "lineages" are very important in Mahayana.

5. Vajrayana/Tibetan - IMO a mix of Mahayana beliefs, Hinduism, and tribal magickal-shamanism. Hierarches and lineages are also prominent in Vajrayana, e.g. Dalai Lama, Panchen Lama, etc.

I place great importance on personal knowledge. Anything that isn't personal knowledge is blind faith. With this perspective, I embrace early Buddhism, and personally reject the others as mainly faith-based religions, like most other religions.

Take your time. I believe in the Buddha. I just want to learn much more as one can never stop learning. Many thanks.
Belief is unnecessary ... would you not agree that practice and self-understanding is much more important? :)
 
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omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Compassion for our enemies is part of Buddhism.

That wasn't the question.


I don't know that the Buddha is a presumption. The Buddha himself as an alleged "person" matter far less to us than the Dhamma (the Buddhist teachings). As I've written previously in this thread: in Buddhism, the Teachings (Dhamma) are far more important than the Person (Buddha). The truths of Buddhism are verifiable in the here (space) and now (time). The person of Jesus (or Buddha, or Krishna, or any other historical figure) is NOT verifiable in the here and now.

It doesn't matter who or where the Dhamma came from. They're called the Dhamma/"Buddhist teachings" because they originated from the "Buddha", a title for the Awakened, Enlightened One, whomever that might be.

Whether these enlightened Buddhist teachings originated 1 million, 2500, or 100 years ago, whether from Gotama, or Jesus, or Zeus, or Thor, or Epicurus, or Lao Tze, a monkey, an ant, or even an alien from another planet - that person or animal is "The Enlightened One", and he, she, or it deserves the title "Buddha"; the corresponding teachings are thus the "Buddhist teachings".[/QUOTE]
Do you mean that you yourself declare the Bible "inspired, inerrant, and infallable"?
I too agree that the Bible is the truth.

I was just pointing out that when a Messiah like Jesus appears, the followers of the previous religion think they know more than Him and when they find He doesn't match their own limited understanding of their own scriptures then they crucified Him. Had they been humble they would have accepted Jesus. That was my main point.

Good. l I must have misunderstood something you said.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Yes, and that's part of the inherent beauty of the Dhamma.

The Four Noble Truths are declarations about our state of Being: there's suffering, suffering arises by craving, suffering ceases by the cessation of craving, and the Path which ceases craving is the Eightfold Path.

Let me suggest that suffering doe snot come from craving. No on ever died from craving.

The Eightfold Path can be summarized as virtue, concentration/meditation, and wisdom.

Can virtue and wisdom ever be 100% complete and is it necessary to be compete? If it is necessary how can you tell when it is complete? Is there an after life in Buddhism?

I can see rebirth happening this very moment in my life. ;) I can see how my 30 year old self is a rebirth of all of my former selves (29.9 year old self, 25 year old self, 7 year old self, etc.). I am neither completely the same nor am I completely different from my 7 year old self. All the moments in my lifestream are connected through ongoing rebirth.

How did this rebirth come about?
 
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