The Chain of Infallibility

[buddhist]

I think the thoughtful translators note such variant meanings in their translations. And cross checking other translations can clarify difficult passages. The fact that the Bible has survived and thrived despite repeated attacks on it proves to me that "the word of our God endures forever." (Isaiah 40:8)

A primary variant meaning of the Greek word aionios is "a long period of time, but still limited", but you almost never see that in most mainstream translations.

Does the fact that the Buddhist scriptures have survived and thrived also prove that it is the enduring word of the Buddha?

 

[BilliardsBall]

How have you personally verified that the Bible's prophecies were indeed written in the ancient past, and personally verified their fulfillment years/centuries later? I don't know for myself either of these things, e.g. I have no clue if someone from, say the year 1600, wrote the Bible himself, and wove in his tales about prophecies, and also their fulfillment, and the Jesus character.

Start with the Hebrew scriptures. The Septuagint is their translation from Hebrew to Greek circa 250 BCE. So, scholars--not just religious scholars but atheist and agnostic scholars--know for certain that the Old Testament is at least 2,250 years old.

The OT is 2,250 years old (I think it's older, but scholars admit it's at least this old). The OT has amazing prophecies about Jewish Israel that were fulfilled circa 1948 CE. That is, when Israel became a nation just three years after the end of WWII. Dozens and dozens of literal, SPECIFIC prophecies.

It is an effort of will to deny that the Bible has predictive powers in both testaments.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Yet how can we guarantee that a church is interpreting the Bible 100% accurately? Who determines what is and isn't an accurate interpretation? Thousands of different sects and millions of different people have stuck to nothing but the Bible, but come up with wildly different interpretations--Calvinism vs. Arminianism, hierarchical Church vs invisible church, free will vs. predestination, Trinity vs. Unitarianism, Jesus being divine and human vs. simply human, the Holy Spirit being a person or not, baptism being done with water or not, baptism having an effect or not... The list goes on. With everybody using nothing but the Bible to ground their positions, how do we tell who's doing it right? What objective measure can we use? What is the measuring stick that leaves no room for ambiguity?

YOU are the measuring stick, start by reading the Bible. For example, I find that reading the Bible, it is plain and clear that Jesus died for human sin, then rose from the dead. There are 14,000 denominations and groups in Christianity. Quick, name all the ones that say Jesus never rose from the dead! None of them because they read the scriptures.

Let me give you an analogy. You go to a Star Trek conference where a panel debates the meaning and symbolism of original series episodes starring Shatner and Nimoy. The scholars disagree and you are unsure what to think until one panel member reveals he's never watched a Star Trek episode or film or read a Star Trek novel or nonfiction book, and is in the wrong panel by accident.

I read the Bible so I can understand what church X believes. Millions of people in church X, Y and Z don't read the Bible, and believe what they're told, not what they've read and studied.

 

[buddhist]

Start with the Hebrew scriptures. The Septuagint is their translation from Hebrew to Greek circa 250 BCE. So, scholars--not just religious scholars but atheist and agnostic scholars--know for certain that the Old Testament is at least 2,250 years old.

The OT is 2,250 years old (I think it's older, but scholars admit it's at least this old). The OT has amazing prophecies about Jewish Israel that were fulfilled circa 1948 CE. That is, when Israel became a nation just three years after the end of WWII. Dozens and dozens of literal, SPECIFIC prophecies.

It is an effort of will to deny that the Bible has predictive powers in both testaments.

How have you personally verified that the Septuagint is truly from 250BCE?

 

[BilliardsBall]

How have you personally verified that the Septuagint is truly from 250BCE?

You can put the latest possible date on the translating as 130-ish CE, but that still means its prophecies, which came true, are nearly 2,000 years in coming to pass!

**

Seventy-two Jewish scholars were asked by the Greek King of Egypt Ptolemy II Philadelphus to translate the Torah from Biblical Hebrew into Greek, for inclusion in the Library of Alexandria.[11]

This is found in the pseudepigraphic Letter of Aristeas to his brother Philocrates,[12] and is repeated by Philo of Alexandria, Josephus[13][14] and by various later sources, including St. Augustine.[15] The story is also found in the Tractate Megillah of the Babylonian Talmud:

King Ptolemy once gathered 72 Elders. He placed them in 72 chambers, each of them in a separate one, without revealing to them why they were summoned. He entered each one's room and said: "Write for me the Torah of Moshe, your teacher". God put it in the heart of each one to translate identically as all the others did.[5]

Philo of Alexandria, who relied extensively on the Septuagint,[16] says that the number of scholars was chosen by selecting six scholars from each of the twelve tribes of Israel.

The date of the 3rd century BCE is supported (for the Torah translation) by a number of factors, including the Greek being representative of early Koine, citations beginning as early as the 2nd century BCE, and early manuscripts datable to the 2nd century.

Source: Wikipedia

 

[buddhist]

You can put the latest possible date on the translating as 130-ish CE, but that still means its prophecies, which came true, are nearly 2,000 years in coming to pass!

**

Seventy-two Jewish scholars were asked by the Greek King of Egypt Ptolemy II Philadelphus to translate the Torah from Biblical Hebrew into Greek, for inclusion in the Library of Alexandria.[11]

This is found in the pseudepigraphic Letter of Aristeas to his brother Philocrates,[12] and is repeated by Philo of Alexandria, Josephus[13][14] and by various later sources, including St. Augustine.[15] The story is also found in the Tractate Megillah of the Babylonian Talmud:

King Ptolemy once gathered 72 Elders. He placed them in 72 chambers, each of them in a separate one, without revealing to them why they were summoned. He entered each one's room and said: "Write for me the Torah of Moshe, your teacher". God put it in the heart of each one to translate identically as all the others did.[5]

Philo of Alexandria, who relied extensively on the Septuagint,[16] says that the number of scholars was chosen by selecting six scholars from each of the twelve tribes of Israel.

The date of the 3rd century BCE is supported (for the Torah translation) by a number of factors, including the Greek being representative of early Koine, citations beginning as early as the 2nd century BCE, and early manuscripts datable to the 2nd century.

Source: Wikipedia

I'm asking how have you personally verified these things ... not hearsay from others (like wikipedia, etc.)

 

[BilliardsBall]

I'm asking how have you personally verified these things ... not hearsay from others (like wikipedia, etc.)

I hold a Bachelor's degree in Religion--from a secular university, not a seminary. I studied the Septuagint, the formation of both testaments and etc. Personally, carefully. I'm aware of hundreds of SPECIFIC prophecies. The evidence is undeniable. I cannot deconvert now--I know too much about the truths of the scriptures.

The statements on Wikipedia are backed by hundreds of scholarly articles. There is no doubt that the Jewish people were a distinct people long before 250 BCE. No one has found idols of Yahweh in Israel, the busiest country for archaeology on Earth! The Jewish people had the scriptures and the commands against idolatry--and all that lovely prophecy, long, long ago.

 

[buddhist]

I hold a Bachelor's degree in Religion--from a secular university, not a seminary. I studied the Septuagint, the formation of both testaments and etc. Personally, carefully. I'm aware of hundreds of SPECIFIC prophecies. The evidence is undeniable. I cannot deconvert now--I know too much about the truths of the scriptures.

The statements on Wikipedia are backed by hundreds of scholarly articles. There is no doubt that the Jewish people were a distinct people long before 250 BCE. No one has found idols of Yahweh in Israel, the busiest country for archaeology on Earth! The Jewish people had the scriptures and the commands against idolatry--and all that lovely prophecy, long, long ago.

Did you personally see the Septuagint being written in 250BCE?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Did you personally see the Septuagint being written in 250BCE?

I did not see the Septuagint being written. However, in my worldview, there are three paths to knowledge:

1. I see something personally and choose to believe what I see

2. I choose to accept oral testimony

3. I choose to accept written testimony

For example, no one I know has drunk sulphuric acid. This is because teachers of science classes told them not to drink it, however, none of these teachers have drunk it themselves. I've never challenged my science teacher, "But have you personally drunk suphuric acid to prove its deleterious effects?"

Your question surprises me, I must say, because you are a Buddhist.

 

[buddhist]

I did not see the Septuagint being written. However, in my worldview, there are three paths to knowledge:

1. I see something personally and choose to believe what I see

2. I choose to accept oral testimony

3. I choose to accept written testimony

For example, no one I know has drunk sulphuric acid. This is because teachers of science classes told them not to drink it, however, none of these teachers have drunk it themselves. I've never challenged my science teacher, "But have you personally drunk suphuric acid to prove its deleterious effects?"

Your question surprises me, I must say, because you are a Buddhist.

I hold a far higher standard for knowledge (compared to any other topic) when it comes to my supposed eternal destiny - I will only accept what I personally know and experienced. Why? Because there are endless oral and written testimonies about Brahman, Krishna, Mohammed, Moses, Jesus, Mithras, Zeus, the Great Spirit, Avalokitesvara, Thor, et. cetera. I can spend a whole lifetime attempting to explore them without coming to any personal knowledge regarding any of them.

What does my standard have to do with being a Buddhist?

 

[BilliardsBall]

I hold a far higher standard for knowledge (compared to any other topic) when it comes to my supposed eternal destiny - I will only accept what I personally know and experienced. Why? Because there are endless oral and written testimonies about Brahman, Krishna, Mohammed, Moses, Jesus, Mithras, Zeus, the Great Spirit, Avalokitesvara, Thor, et. cetera. I can spend a whole lifetime attempting to explore them without coming to any personal knowledge regarding any of them.

What does my standard have to do with being a Buddhist?

1. Only about 12 religions have texts. It's not true that you must spend a lifetime to discern fact from fiction. Rather, we can make logical comparisons. Here are two examples:

a. The Noble Qu'ran says Allah has no son. It says Jesus wasn't crucified. The Bible says Jesus is God's Son, and was crucified and resurrected for human sin. Either both texts are wrong or one text is right here, but they both cannot be divine revelations. One at least is inadmissible as fact.

b. The Bible contains revealed prophecy as explained. You can study ancient Bible prophecy and modern, verifiable Israel and come to the correct conclusion--the Bible is divine revelation to man.

2. My remark regarding Buddhism touches on the nature of reality as illusory in Buddhism. A Buddhist monk would not say, "I believe what I see because what I see is reality."

 

[buddhist]

1. Only about 12 religions have texts. It's not true that you must spend a lifetime to discern fact from fiction. Rather, we can make logical comparisons.

I'm not sure where you got "12" from - I can count many more than 12 religions that have texts which describe their deities and beliefs.

Here are two examples:

a. The Noble Qu'ran says Allah has no son. It says Jesus wasn't crucified. The Bible says Jesus is God's Son, and was crucified and resurrected for human sin. Either both texts are wrong or one text is right here, but they both cannot be divine revelations. One at least is inadmissible as fact.

b. The Bible contains revealed prophecy as explained. You can study ancient Bible prophecy and modern, verifiable Israel and come to the correct conclusion--the Bible is divine revelation to man.

What about the claim that I have no personal knowledge of the creation of the Bible, nor of the creation of "modern Israel" either? Both were before my birth.

2. My remark regarding Buddhism touches on the nature of reality as illusory in Buddhism. A Buddhist monk would not say, "I believe what I see because what I see is reality."

That is a Mahayana viewpoint; I do not espouse Mahayana beliefs.

So, that's not exactly true, according to early Buddhism as I understand it. Things in samsara are conventionally true and real, not illusory.

 

[Sleeppy]

You're forgetting that God also commissioned false prophets.

 

[buddhist]

You're forgetting that God also commissioned false prophets.

Does a good parent send bad people to advise their children?

 

[Sleeppy]

Does a good parent send bad people to advise their children?

There is only the One who is good. You won't find a good parent, who is not also a bad parent. But in either case, the good and the bad serve, to open the eyes of the Son of Man.

 

[jonathan180iq]

There were Christians before there was a Bible. The Bible is not necessary for salvation, neither is faith in its infallibility.

 

[buddhist]

There is only the One who is good. You won't find a good parent, who is not also a bad parent. But in either case, the good and the bad serve, to open the eyes of the Son of Man.

Where is your Proof?

 

[BilliardsBall]

What about the claim that I have no personal knowledge of the creation of the Bible, nor of the creation of "modern Israel" either? Both were before my birth.

Do you exist? Do you have personal sensory and revelatory experience of your birth or are you trusting other people who were present--or so they say--at your birth? Based on your standard, you and I would need to reject the following:

*the creation of the USA and dozens of world countries that were inaugurated prior to our births
*the lists of most know poisons, as in my sulphuric acid example
*the existence of most figures of history including Prince Buddha

If you want to say, rather, that you have personally experienced Buddha and have not personally experienced Jesus, we can talk about that. But I think it is not reasoning that guides you in rejecting prophecy based on these facts:

1. Ask anyone you know or trust--Jewish people have existed for millennia
2. Jewish people in the majority reject Jesus and the New Testament
3. The Hebrew scriptures are proved to have extraordinary prophecies of modern-day Israel, the New Testament and Jesus, including the Jewish rejection of Jesus, though He claimed and fulfilled the principles of Messiahship

 

[BilliardsBall]

There were Christians before there was a Bible. The Bible is not necessary for salvation, neither is faith in its infallibility.

I can perhaps agree with some of your statement, but how am I to know what a "follower of Christ" is and should be, that is, "a Christian", without a Bible I can read and trust?

 

[buddhist]

Do you exist? Do you have personal sensory and revelatory experience of your birth or are you trusting other people who were present--or so they say--at your birth? Based on your standard, you and I would need to reject the following:

*the creation of the USA and dozens of world countries that were inaugurated prior to our births
*the lists of most know poisons, as in my sulphuric acid example

I am agnostic on history, as I have not known it for myself, even my own birth. I have a degree of faith in claims about poisons, because I have the opportunity to experience them for myself. Regarding my eternal destiny, I hold to a much stricter standard.

*the existence of most figures of history including Prince Buddha ... If you want to say, rather, that you have personally experienced Buddha and have not personally experienced Jesus, we can talk about that.

We can certainly talk about that, but you would err. There are different emphases, in early Buddhism vs Christianity.

As I wrote recently in another thread, "salvation" in early Buddhism does not depend on belief or blind faith on things which may or may not have happened 2500 years ago. It does not depend on belief or blind faith on the truth about who the Buddha was, or what he did, etc. (On the other hand, equivalent things matter greatly in Christianity and other faith-systems, because you must have blind faith in the right things, the right stories, the right Person, etc.)

Early Buddhism does depend on things which we can see in the here and now, e.g. the truth about suffering and its cessation.

So, it really doesn't matter if the Buddha was a prince born some 2500 years ago on the Indian subcontinent, or if he was a two headed monkey born 100,000 years ago. It doesn't matter if the Buddha traveled around to preach the Laws and Truths he rediscovered, or if he didn't. It doesn't matter if the words attributed to the Buddha were spoken by one man, two women, or a hundred different people, and brought together as the "Dhamma". What matters are the Laws and Truths themselves (the Dhamma), Truths which we now attribute to someone to whom which we give the title Enlightened One ("Buddha"), Truths which I can and have verified for myself, in the present.

But I think it is not reasoning that guides you in rejecting prophecy based on these facts:

1. Ask anyone you know or trust--Jewish people have existed for millennia
2. Jewish people in the majority reject Jesus and the New Testament
3. The Hebrew scriptures are proved to have extraordinary prophecies of modern-day Israel, the New Testament and Jesus, including the Jewish rejection of Jesus, though He claimed and fulfilled the principles of Messiahship

I have no personal knowledge of an alleged Jewish people or of the alleged Kingdom of Israel of 2500 years ago, nor do I know if they are the same people today or if the alleged Kingdom of Israel is one and the same as the State of Israel today. I have no personal knowledge of Jesus, of his alleged messiaship, nor of the writing of the New Testament or the Hebrew Scriptures.