The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Blacks and the Priesthood)

[waitasec]

Someone called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints racist, so I made this thread so we could discuss it, and they seem to of run away.

why because of this?

2 Nephi 5:21
And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

and

Alma 3:7-10
7 And their brethren sought to destroy them, therefore they were cursed; and the Lord God set a mark upon them, yea, upon Laman and Lemuel, and also the sons of Ishmael, and Ishmaelitish women.
8 And this was done that their seed might be distinguished from the seed of their brethren, that thereby the Lord God might preserve his people, that they might not mix and believe in incorrect traditions which would prove their destruction.
9 And it came to pass that whosoever did mingle his seed with that of the Lamanites did bring the same curse upon his seed.
10 Therefore, whosoever suffered himself to be led away by the Lamanites was called under that head, and there was a mark set upon him.

and
Alma 23:18
And they began to be a very industrious people; yea, and they were friendly with the Nephites; therefore, they did open a correspondence with them, and the curse of God did no more follow them.

and
3 Nephi 2:15-16
And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites
16 And their young men and their daughters became exceedingly fair, and they were numbered among the Nephites, and were called Nephites. And thus ended the thirteenth year.

what a ridiculous claim....

 

[Dan4reason]

Is God racist?

It was racist but not any more. The mormon church was started in a racist time and since it was just made up, it is not surprising that it contained some hyper-racist principals of 19th century America. When racism began to fade after the 1960's the church came under attack for its racism so it allowed every race to have the priesthood. It is really just that simple.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

why because of this?

2 Nephi 5:21
And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

and

Alma 3:7-10
7 And their brethren sought to destroy them, therefore they were cursed; and the Lord God set a mark upon them, yea, upon Laman and Lemuel, and also the sons of Ishmael, and Ishmaelitish women.
8 And this was done that their seed might be distinguished from the seed of their brethren, that thereby the Lord God might preserve his people, that they might not mix and believe in incorrect traditions which would prove their destruction.
9 And it came to pass that whosoever did mingle his seed with that of the Lamanites did bring the same curse upon his seed.
10 Therefore, whosoever suffered himself to be led away by the Lamanites was called under that head, and there was a mark set upon him.

and
Alma 23:18
And they began to be a very industrious people; yea, and they were friendly with the Nephites; therefore, they did open a correspondence with them, and the curse of God did no more follow them.

and
3 Nephi 2:15-16
And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites
16 And their young men and their daughters became exceedingly fair, and they were numbered among the Nephites, and were called Nephites. And thus ended the thirteenth year.

what a ridiculous claim....

So what if he made them all have green skin? Would God still be considered racist? Your statement does not prove the church is not true.
I think putting a difference between the two was a very wise idea and proved to be quite effective if you actually read the rest of the Book of Mormon it is plain to see.

 

[waitasec]

So what if he made them all have green skin? Would God still be considered racist? Your statement does not prove the church is not true.
I think putting a difference between the two was a very wise idea and proved to be quite effective if you actually read the rest of the Book of Mormon it is plain to see.

the thing of it is he didn't, supposedly. he made them black as a curse. it's a reflection of the rampant racism of the day...
i'm not trying to prove the church isn't real i'm trying to show you it's foundation is flawed and man made.

 

[no-body]

I full heartedly agree, nor was he ever.
Has he ever denied descendants of a certain person the priesthood? Yes.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe God denied Ham, the son of Noah, and his descendants the priesthood.
Was God racist then? No.
According to my understanding the same concept was going on with the Blacks and the Priesthood in the earlier days of the Church.

so God denied people of dark skin the priesthood because their descendant looked at his dad naked? and where did the dark skinned dude originate from anyway?

Sounds kind of like the story of Adam and Eve. God is one sick SOB if you ask me.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

the thing of it is he didn't, supposedly. he made them black as a curse. it's a reflection of the rampant racism of the day...
i'm not trying to prove the church isn't real i'm trying to show you it's foundation is flawed and man made.

So you are saying that it would of been better if God gave them green skin?
For me it really doesn't make a difference and doesn't matter. There was no flaw in what God did. I think the curse of the Lamanites was more so the fact of them being cut off from God's people. Before that time the Lamanites and Nephites lived together, but when Laman and Lemuel grew desirous to slay Nephi it became needful for the followers of Nephi and the followers of Laman and Lemuel to be seperated. If God didn't seperate the good from the wicked otherwise they would of killed Nephi and all his followers and everyone would of turned bad.

 

[waitasec]

So you are saying that it would of been better if God gave them green skin?

yes...do you see any green people today? ah no.

For me it really doesn't make a difference and doesn't matter. There was no flaw in what God did. I think the curse of the Lamanites was more so the fact of them being cut off from God's people. Before that time the Lamanites and Nephites lived together, but when Laman and Lemuel grew desirous to slay Nephi it became needful for the followers of Nephi and the followers of Laman and Lemuel to be seperated. If God didn't seperate the good from the wicked otherwise they would of killed Nephi and all his followers and everyone would of turned bad.

so why couldn't someone who happens to be black not enter the priesthood back when this cultish/sect started?

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Do you even know what the deffinition of the word cult means?
According to dictionary.com a cult means "A particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies." You could just as easily call every church in the world. A cult.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Name one worthy black man who was denied the priestood. Until you can your words are meaningless.

 

[waitasec]

Do you even know what the deffinition of the word cult means?
According to dictionary.com a cult means "A particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies." You could just as easily call every church in the world. A cult.

the difference between a religion and a cult is time and $$$

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

the difference between a religion and a cult is time and $$$

Please explain

 

[zomg]

yaddoe,

You can't ask a question about why God is racist and then simply ignore the proof people give to you. It's there. It's in the BoM and the BoA. In the BoM it states God gave them a BLACK skin as a curse. Don't get much clearer than that.

Name a black person who was denied the priesthood? Every single one of them except for one or two who slipped in at the start.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Is God racist?

It's racist to say that people can or can't do a job based on the colour of their skin. If you think that it was God who said this, then your God is racist.

I also think it's sexist to say that people can or can't do a job based on their gender... but this is a problem for many denominations, not just Mormons.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

yaddoe,

You can't ask a question about why God is racist and then simply ignore the proof people give to you. It's there. It's in the BoM and the BoA. In the BoM it states God gave them a BLACK skin as a curse. Don't get much clearer than that.

Name a black person who was denied the priesthood? Every single one of them except for one or two who slipped in at the start.

I never asked the question "Why God is racist?" . I asked the question "Is God racist?"

The way you state this makes it sound like you believe God is racist...
Do you?

What is the BoA? Is that a funny way of saying the Book of Alma?
What would be the curse in having black skin? I can't think of the Book of Mormon ever mentioning some bad side effects. It never states that tons of people died of sickle cell anemia. The only disadvantage the Lamanites had was being separated from the Nephites from that time on.

 

[zomg]

I never asked the question "Why God is racist?" . I asked the question "Is God racist?"

The way you state this makes it sound like you believe God is racist...
Do you?

What is the BoA? Is that a funny way of saying the Book of Alma?
What would be the curse in having black skin? I can't think of the Book of Mormon ever mentioning some bad side effects. It never states that tons of people died of sickle cell anemia. The only disadvantage the Lamanites had was being separated from the Nephites from that time on.

I don't really believe in a God. The Mormon God is racist as are most of its prophets. The BoA is the Book of Abraham, which talks about the black skin as well.

From what I can remember from the BOM the black skin came after Laman and Lemuel rebelled against God. God gave them a black skin so the white and delightsome Nephites could identify the Lamanites as apostates. The worlds filthy and loathsome are throw around as well if I remember correctly.

However, once the Lamanites believe in God their skin changes color to white. Therefore, if a person has black skin they must still have the curse from God.

Reading this leads one to believe the Mormon version of God is very, very racist.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

this reminds me of the question of is God's love unconditional?
I already have a thread on it, and in the thread I share this article
Divine Love - Liahona Feb. 2003 - liahona
It is called divine love. So before we go around calling God racist, lets go read about whether or not God's love is really unconditional or not. I think it ties in really to our subject.

 

[Evandr]

Racism is neither an attribute of God nor His church on the earth; it is an attribute of man, a violent one at that.

Consider; there was a time in distant lands when, if Joseph Smith were to stand up and declare that he saw and talked with God he would have been lynched so fast he would not have been able to say it twice; that is why God had to prepare a place where He could establish His church without denying man the free agency to be stupid and violent if they choose to be.

As soon as the start was able to successfully go on to become what the church is today the Lord started it through Joseph Smith, however, it was hard and slow going. Can you imagine how Joseph Smith would have been received if he had declared that African Americans able to hold the priesthood equal to a white man? Denying the black man the priesthood was of a necessity to get the ball rolling without interfering with free agency because otherwise Joseph Smith and the early saints never would have been driven out, they would have been snuffed out.

Black America has always had those worthy of the priesthood but, due to the racism of man, the time was not right as the Church was being established and forcing that trial on Joseph Smith and our black brethern was simply not necessary. No black American worthy of, yet denied the priesthood for their own safety and the propogation of the church on the earth, has ever been denied any blessing because of it.

 

[zomg]

Racism is neither an attribute of God nor His church on the earth; it is an attribute of man, a violent one at that.

Consider; there was a time in distant lands when, if Joseph Smith were to stand up and declare that he saw and talked with God he would have been lynched so fast he would not have been able to say it twice; that is why God had to prepare a place where He could establish His church without denying man the free agency to be stupid and violent if they choose to be.

As soon as the start was able to successfully go on to become what the church is today the Lord started it through Joseph Smith, however, it was hard and slow going. Can you imagine how Joseph Smith would have been received if he had declared that African Americans able to hold the priesthood equal to a white man? Denying the black man the priesthood was of a necessity to get the ball rolling without interfering with free agency because otherwise Joseph Smith and the early saints never would have been driven out, they would have been snuffed out.

Black America has always had those worthy of the priesthood but, due to the racism of man, the time was not right as the Church was being established and forcing that trial on Joseph Smith and our black brethern was simply not necessary. No black American worthy of, yet denied the priesthood for their own safety and the propogation of the church on the earth, has ever been denied any blessing because of it.

This sounds great until you consider polygamy. Joseph Smith had no problems starting polygamy and you can see what the final result of that decision. In my opinion, your comment is not a valid argument.

I don't believe God would limit the blessings of eternal marriage/endowment to white men simply because the world would be upset if blacks were allowed the priesthood. If that were the case why did God let Brigham Young say such hurtful things about the black race. Couldn't God have said, "Yeah, well, let's wait until the rest of the world is ready. There's nothing wrong with black people, btw."?

 

[idea]

This sounds great until you consider polygamy. Joseph Smith had no problems starting polygamy and you can see what the final result of that decision. In my opinion, your comment is not a valid argument.

I don't believe God would limit the blessings of eternal marriage/endowment to white men simply because the world would be upset if blacks were allowed the priesthood. If that were the case why did God let Brigham Young say such hurtful things about the black race. Couldn't God have said, "Yeah, well, let's wait until the rest of the world is ready. There's nothing wrong with black people, btw."?

God did not limit the blessings of eternal marriage/endowment to anyone - in this life, or in the next, everyone has the same opportunity for this (this is why we do temple work). Both polygamy and the priesthood were tests - sacrifice - the scriptures are full of people sacrificing things in order to be tested by God.



Different people are called to do different things

(New Testament | Romans 12:4 - 5)
4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
heart, hands, eyes, ears - each hold different roles...

It's not a curse but a gift t'us,
The best path we could seek
A place where God can lift us
We kneel; our knees is weak

And when one of us is kneelin',
We understand his fears.
We know what all us is feelin'
We cry each other's tears.

That's just what Jesus done
For all us human folk.
He agreed to come get born
To feel ever' pain and poke.

So's he could understand us,
What it is to be a slave.
So's he could get beneath us
And push us outa the grave

Would you rather be the massa
Or the Roman with his whip?
Would you rather nail the Savior--
Put vinegar to his lip?

Or learn the lessons of sufferin'--
How we nothin' without grace.
Jesus, He give us a callin'
He gifted us our race.

by Margaret Blair Young

I am not allowed to hold the priesthood (I am female) but that is fine -

the last shall be first, and the first last... Math 19:30
the greatest among you shall be your servant...Math 23:11

it's not about being "in front of" people...
it's about being with them.

 

[waitasec]

I am not allowed to hold the priesthood (I am female) but that is fine -

the last shall be first, and the first last... Math 19:30
the greatest among you shall be your servant...Math 23:11

it's not about being "in front of" people...
it's about being with them.

not being allowed is not being with people but being subjected to them.

have you considered that your personal moral sense is more sensible than that of mt 19:30? if in fact it's not about being in front of people but being with them?