The Collective Concept of Messiah

[Ben Avraham]

The Collective Messiah - Isaiah 53

We all know that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah. So, no argument about it. But then whom did Isaiah have in mind when he wrote chapter 53? In fact, who was in his mind when he wrote the whole book? That's in Isaiah 1:1: "A vision about Judah and Jerusalem." That's the theme of the book of Isaiah: Judah. Or the House of Jacob called by the name Israel from the stock of Judah. (Isa. 48:1)

Now, how about the Suffering Servant? Isaiah mentions him by name, which is Israel according to Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21. Now, we have extablished a syllogism. If the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, and the Suffering Servant is Israel, the resultant premise will obviously be that Israel (the Jewish People) is the Messiah. Rashi thought so too, and a few other thinkers of weight.

Now, if the Messiah must also bring the epitet of son of God, there is no problem. We can have it from Exodus 4:22,23. Here's what it says in there: "Israel is My son; so, let My son go, that he may serve Me," says the Lord. That's why Hosea said that "When Israel was a child, God said, out of Egypt I called My son." (Hosea 11:1)

Last but not least, Jesus no doubt was part of the Messiah but not on an individual basis. The Messiah is collective. What we need from time to time, especially in exile, is of a Messianic leader to lead or inspire the Messiah to return home. Moses was one for bringing the Messiah back to Canaan. Cyrus was another for proclaiming the return of the Messiah to rebuild the Temple; which he contributed heavily finacially; and in our modern times, we had Herzl who was also one for inspiring the Messiah with love for Zion.

How about Jesus, what do we have to classify him as at least a Messianic leader? Well, when he was born Israel was at home, although suffering under the foreign power of the Romans. As he grew up that suffering only got worse. When he left, the collective Messiah was expelled into another exile of about 2000 years. Not even as a Messianic leader he could not classify. Let alone as the Messiah himself.

Now, I would appreciate to share your comments about the above.

 

[wizanda]

Please note, though I'm quoting specific verses for you, you need to read the whole chapters of each bit to understand this whole context.

We all know that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah.

Isaiah 53 doesn't specify it is the Messiah on its own, only when we include Daniel 9:26 can we conclude the Messiah will be put to death.

But then whom did Isaiah have in mind when he wrote chapter 53?

When we go to Isaiah 52:10 it specifies who it is about, as Yeshuat Eloheinu (salvation of our God) is referenced as the Arm of the Lord, this is repeated in the first line of Isaiah 53:1 'to reveal the arm of the Lord', showing they're interlinked....

We also find the Reference to Yeshuat Eloheinu in Psalms 98 as 'the Right Arm of the Lord' that people shall physically see.

That's in Isaiah 1:1: "A vision about Judah and Jerusalem."

Yes, yet we need to take the whole of Isaiah into context, not just read the intro....

That's the theme of the book of Isaiah: Judah. Or the House of Jacob called by the name Israel from the stock of Judah.

Isaiah 43:28 Therefore I will profane the princes of the sanctuary; and I will make Jacob a curse, and Israel an insult.”

Isaiah 65:15 You will leave your name for a curse to my chosen; and the Lord Yahweh will kill you. He will call his servants by another name.

Isaiah 5:13 is about the diaspora, Isaiah 28 is the 2nd temple destruction, which is why Ezekiel 7, then quotes 'rumor on rumor, mischief on mischief'.

Israel was dispersed among the nations, and is only a promise to Jacob that those who are worthy, will return in the Messianic age.

Judah is a cursed people, with a broken covenant, as they've divorced them self in Isaiah 50:1 and Zechariah 11, by 'paying 30 pieces of silver and putting it in the potters-field in the house of Israel.'

Jesus no doubt was part of the Messiah but not on an individual basis. The Messiah is collective.

There is only one king to reign in the Messianic age; unfortunately the collective are those chosen from out of the nations, and the remnant of Judah who respect the 'Marvelous Work' (Zechariah 8:6).

Not even as a Messianic leader he could not classify.

Yeshua has done more for the Messianic age, than any other being in history....

He divorced Judah/Israel, which is clear by the 2nd temple destruction; he has laid a plummet line of righteousness, by those who listen to what he taught, and he has established a snare, as most of Isaiah is really about, to remove all the workers of iniquity in one go.

If any of this makes sense, then here is the taunting riddle, which explains it again slightly clearer; there is reams of scriptural explanation possible on this.

Rashi thought so too, and a few other thinkers of weight.

Zechariah 12:4 In that day,” says Yahweh, “I will strike every horse with terror, and his rider with madness; and I will open my eyes on the house of Judah, and will strike every horse of the peoples with blindness.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Please note, though I'm quoting specific verses for you, you need to read the whole chapters of each bit to understand this whole context.

Isaiah 53 doesn't specify it is the Messiah on its own, only when we include Daniel 9:26 can we conclude the Messiah will be put to death.

When we go to Isaiah 52:10 it specifies who it is about, as Yeshuat Eloheinu (salvation of our God) is referenced as the Arm of the Lord, this is repeated in the first line of Isaiah 53:1 'to reveal the arm of the Lord', showing they're interlinked....

We also find the Reference to Yeshuat Eloheinu in Psalms 98 as 'the Right Arm of the Lord' that people shall physically see.

Yes, yet we need to take the whole of Isaiah into context, not just read the intro....

Isaiah 43:28 Therefore I will profane the princes of the sanctuary; and I will make Jacob a curse, and Israel an insult.”

Isaiah 65:15 You will leave your name for a curse to my chosen; and the Lord Yahweh will kill you. He will call his servants by another name.

Isaiah 5:13 is about the diaspora, Isaiah 28 is the 2nd temple destruction, which is why Ezekiel 7, then quotes 'rumor on rumor, mischief on mischief'.

Israel was dispersed among the nations, and is only a promise to Jacob that those who are worthy, will return in the Messianic age.

Judah is a cursed people, with a broken covenant, as they've divorced them self in Isaiah 50:1 and Zechariah 11, by 'paying 30 pieces of silver and putting it in the potters-field in the house of Israel.'

There is only one king to reign in the Messianic age; unfortunately the collective are those chosen from out of the nations, and the remnant of Judah who respect the 'Marvelous Work' (Zechariah 8:6).

Yeshua has done more for the Messianic age, than any other being in history....

He divorced Judah/Israel, which is clear by the 2nd temple destruction; he has laid a plummet line of righteousness, by those who listen to what he taught, and he has established a snare, as most of Isaiah is really about, to remove all the workers of iniquity in one go.

If any of this makes sense, then here is the taunting riddle, which explains it again slightly clearer; there is reams of scriptural explanation possible on this.

Zechariah 12:4 In that day,” says Yahweh, “I will strike every horse with terror, and his rider with madness; and I will open my eyes on the house of Judah, and will strike every horse of the peoples with blindness.

What did Yeshua do for the Messianic age than any other being in history? That I would like to know!
And for all the answers you have provided I saw nothing different from assumptions based on Christian preconceived notions. Absolutely nothing to do with Jesus. The whole chapter 53 of Isaiah is about the Servant of the Lord whom Isaiah identifies by name if you read Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21.

 

[wizanda]

I saw nothing different from assumptions based on Christian preconceived notions.

Please try not to make assumptions, based on other people's presuppositions.....

I'm not a Christian, (John, Paul and Simon the stone [petros]) who established Christianity are false text; thus much of Christian ideology is systematically removed from our understanding.

Yeshua is a Hebrew concept, not a Gentile one.

The whole chapter 53 of Isaiah is about the Servant of the Lord whom Isaiah identifies by name if you read Isaiah 41:8,9

I've read the whole of Isaiah multiple times, and unfortunately you're missing numerous additional factors out:

For instance, when you quote Isaiah 41:8-9; that specifically refers to Jacob the person, who was chosen, not the whole nation of Israel, as they're already cut off by that point in Isaiah.

Then in Isaiah 43:28, it is stated that 'Israel is an insult, and Jacob is a curse'; which is in affect until the remnant return after the day of the Lord (which hasn't happened yet).

Isaiah 44:1,2,21

Again Isaiah 44:1-2 is specifically Jacob his servant, not the chosen people.

Now Isaiah 44:21 does say Israel is the servant.

Yet then in Isaiah 49:5, that is referring to Isaiah as the servant.

In Isaiah 49:3 it speaks of the servant Israel being glorified; yet once they're brought back in, by the servant of Isaiah 49:6, who shall also be a light of salvation (Yeshua) unto the Gentiles.

Isaiah 49:7 Yahweh, the Redeemer of Israel, his Holy One, to him whom man despises, to him whom the nation abhors, to a servant of rulers: “Kings shall see and rise up; princes, and they shall worship; because of Yahweh who is faithful, even the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you.”

As it continues in verse 7, it refers to the person who shall be despised (Isaiah 53:3), abhorred (Zechariah 11:8), that he shall challenge kings (Isaiah 52:15)...

As we see from these, it isn't Jews or Israelis that have done any of these things, and they're the ones who need redeeming according to Isaiah, etc.


Then when we come to Isaiah 53, so many things make it not possible to be Israel:

• They weren't put to death with the wicked.
• Weren't cut off from the land of the living.
• They've not become a sin offering.
• They've not healed the sick.
• Carried anyone's sorrows or sins.
• And they're not entitled to any inheritance currently, unless they accept Yeshua's part in God's plan.

What did Yeshua do for the Messianic age than any other being in history?

Have just explained it once, and posted the Taunting Riddle for you, if you're interested in really understanding what is going on:

He divorced Judah/Israel, which is clear by the 2nd temple destruction; he has laid a plummet line of righteousness, by those who listen to what he taught, and he has established a snare, as most of Isaiah is really about, to remove all the workers of iniquity in one go.

Unfortunately as stating, our people who do not accept Yeshua will be blinded to understanding any of what is being explained, as this is part of the Miracle of this Marvelous Work (Isaiah 29:9-14).

Thank you for making me question the faulty servant conclusions again; learned more of how it really fits together.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The Collective Messiah - Isaiah 53

We all know that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah.

Thank you for sharing that bit of hubris run amok. The fact remains ...

Despite strong objections from conservative Christian apologists, the prevailing rabbinic interpretation of Isaiah 53 ascribes the “servant” to the nation of Israel who silently endured unimaginable suffering at the hands of its gentile oppressors. The speakers, in this most-debated chapter, are the stunned kings of nations who will bear witness to the messianic age and the final vindication of the Jewish people following their long and bitter exile. “Who would have believed our report?,” the astonished and contrite world leaders wonder aloud in dazed bewilderment (53:1).1

The stimulus for the world’s baffled response contained in this famed cluster of chapters at the end of the Book of Isaiah is the unexpected salvation of Israel. The redemption of God’s people is the central theme in the preceding verse (52:12) where the “you” signifies the Jewish people who are sheltered and delivered by God. Moreover, the “afflicted barren woman” in the following chapter is protected and saved by God, and is also universally recognized as the nation of Israel2 (54:1).

The well-worn claim frequently advanced by Christian apologists who argue that the noted Jewish commentator, Rashi (1040 CE – 1105 CE), was the first to identify the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 with the nation of Israel is inaccurate and misleading. In fact, Origen, a prominent and influential church father, conceded in the year 248 CE – eight centuries before Rashi was born – that the consensus among the Jews in his time was that Isaiah 53 “bore reference to the whole [Jewish] people, regarded as one individual, and as being in a state of dispersion and suffering, in order that many proselytes might be gained, on account of the dispersion of the Jews among numerous heathen nations.”3

The broad consensus among Jewish, and even some Christian commentators, that the “servant” in Isaiah 52-53 refers to the nation of Israel is understandable. Isaiah 53, which is the fourth of four renowned Servant Songs, is umbilically connected to its preceding chapters. The “servant” in each of the three previous Servant Songs is plainly and repeatedly identified as the nation of Israel.

[source]

 

[wizanda]

The fact remains ...

Do any think for themselves....

There are numerous illogical statements within that quote, that do not fit with the text, and yet everyone just agrees as it sounds nice because a Rabbi said it....

Yet completely ignore that the text says our leaders are blinded.

Please look at my last post, on some reasons Israel can not be the fulfillment of Isaiah 53.

to the nation of Israel who silently endured unimaginable suffering at the hands of its gentile oppressors.

It is repeated throughout the prophets, it was Yah-Avah's doing, not the Gentiles.

The “servant” in each of the three previous Servant Songs is plainly and repeatedly identified as the nation of Israel.

That statement isn't true in the slightest, and shows bad reading comprehension:

1. Isaiah 42:1-4 is about Jacob specifically, as it says child of Abraham.
2. Isaiah 49:1-7 is about Yeshua, as explained above.
3. Isaiah 50:1-10 is about Yeshua divorcing Israel/Judah (Zechariah 11), couldn't be anyone else.
4. Isaiah 52:10 - Isaiah 53 has Yeshuat Eloheinu by name, after that its many criteria specify who it is.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Please try not to make assumptions, based on other people's presuppositions.....

Mine are not assumptions but yours are. Isaiah was a Jew. What he wrote must be interpreted Jewishly and not according to Christian preconceived notions

I'm not a Christian, (John, Paul and Simon the stone [petros]) who established Christianity are false text; thus much of Christian ideology is systematically removed from our understanding.

Please! This thing is getting ridiculous! You cannot deny Christianity in the name of being a Christian which, by definition is the one who believes that Jesus was Christ. You do and to deny, won't help you.

Yeshua is a Hebrew concept, not a Gentile one.

I am aware that Yeshua was Jewish indeed but you are projecting him as a Christian. This is vandalism of Judaism by Christianity.

I've read the whole of Isaiah multiple times, and unfortunately you're missing numerous additional factors out:For instance, when you quote Isaiah 41:8-9; that specifically refers to Jacob the person, who was chosen, not the whole nation of Israel, as they're already cut off by that point in Isaiah.

You can read Isaiah every day for the rest of your life but, as long as you do it with Christian preconceived notions, you will be no different from any other Christian.

Then in Isaiah 43:28, it is stated that 'Israel is an insult, and Jacob is a curse'; which is in affect until the remnant return after the day of the Lord (which hasn't happened yet).

Behold you're back at what you do best. Promoting Christian doctrines. The Remnant from Judah has returned already. Read Isaiah 10:22.

Again Isaiah 44:1-2 is specifically Jacob his servant, not the chosen people.

Jacob aka Israel aka the chosen People are one and the same. You are being too anti-Jewish now.

Now Isaiah 44:21 does say Israel is the servant.

So, why are you individualized Israel with Yeshua? Wake up my friend!

Yet then in Isaiah 49:5, that is referring to Isaiah as the servant.

So, stop interpolating Yeshua into the text.

In Isaiah 49:3 it speaks of the servant Israel being glorified; yet once they're brought back in, by the servant of Isaiah 49:6, who shall also be a light of salvation (Yeshua) unto the Gentiles.

Yeshua can no longer be any thing whatsoever if you read Ecclesiastes 9:5,6. He is dead for 2000 years already and you are still dreaming about him.

Isaiah 49:7 Yahweh, the Redeemer of Israel, his Holy One, to him whom man despises, to him whom the nation abhors, to a servant of rulers: “Kings shall see and rise up; princes, and they shall worship; because of Yahweh who is faithful, even the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you.”

Who has chosen you aka Judah. If you read Psalm 78:67-70, HaShem rejected Israel and confirmed Judah to remain as a lamp in Jerusalem forever for the sake of David. (I Kings 11:36)

As it continues in verse 7, it refers to the person who shall be despised (Isaiah 53:3), abhorred (Zechariah 11:8), that he shall challenge kings (Isaiah 52:15)...

It refers to no one on an individual basis but to Israel.

As we see from these, it isn't Jews or Israelis that have done any of these things, and they're the ones who need redeeming according to Isaiah, etc.

As I told you above, it won't help you to distort the meaning of prophecies in the Tanach in the hope that they could point to Yeshua. The prophecies of Isaiah are about Judah and Jerusalem, not Yeshua. Read Isaiah 1:1; 2:1.

Then when we come to Isaiah 53, so many things make it not possible to be Israel:

Because of your Christian preconceived notions. It won't help you. Try to understand!

They weren't put to death with the wicked. Weren't cut off from the land of the living. They've not become a sin offering. They've not healed the sick. Carried anyone's sorrows or sins. And they're not entitled to any inheritance currently, unless they accept Yeshua's part in God's plan.

The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever.(Jeremiah 35-37) Here, the land of the living is a reference to the Land of Israel. Israel aka the Scapegoat became a sin offering for those of Judah. Check about the work of Israeli doctors throughout Africa. They have restored the sight of many eyes and other threats of life. Again, back to your Christian doctrines of Yeshua's part in God's plan.

Have just explained it once, and posted the Taunting Riddle for you, if you're interested in really understanding what is going on: Unfortunately as stating, our people who do not accept Yeshua will be blinded to understanding any of what is being explained, as this is part of the Miracle of this Marvelous Work (Isaiah 29:9-14).

Can't you realize that you are asking us to accept a dead man as if he was the Messiah! Try to understand Ecclesiastes 9:5,6. HaShem has nothing to do with the dead as He is God of the living, not of the dead.

Thank you for making me question the faulty servant conclusions again; learned more of how it really fits together.

Nothing fits together between The gospel of Jesus aka the Tanach and the gospel of Paul aka the NT. Try to understand for your own good!

 

[wizanda]

You cannot deny Christianity in the name of being a Christian which, by definition is the one who believes that Jesus was Christ.

That isn't a very well placed definition, based on what the biblical text specifies; a Christian has to believe what Paul taught, 'that jesus is your lord and savior, who died to cleanse our sins'.

This to me is Anti-Torah, and more Pharisaic, thus i can't accept Christian ideologies; which were first established in Antioch, and applied to Paul's and Simon's ministry (Acts 11:25-26).

If you examine the early history, James the Just head of the church of Jerusalem, and part of the Ebionites rejected Christianity for their Pharisaic sacrifice ideologies.

So no a Christian isn't someone who accepts Yeshua in the slightest, as he was against the Pharisaic idea, 'that the death of the righteous could count as an atoning sacrifice'.

Christian preconceived notions

[GALLERY=media, 7635][/GALLERY]
Please examine your own lack of comprehension of what is really being said; as the statement you made about it 'getting ridiculous' clearly applies.

The Remnant from Judah has returned already. Read Isaiah 10:22.

This was after Assyria, as the text states Isaiah 10:5, Isaiah 10:24, etc.

You are being too anti-Jewish now.

Don't even start your rubbish; I'm genetically from the line of David.

Jacob aka Israel aka the chosen People are one and the same.

Stop making text fit, this is a legal book, you read it as it states, adding your own aka, aka, to make it fit, isn't following what is stated.

So, stop interpolating Yeshua into the text.

I didn't, the text of Isaiah 49:5 uses 'me' and 'my', i.e it is referring to the author being Isaiah.

why are you individualized Israel with Yeshua?

Each individual verse is specific, each should be taken in contextual understanding, and not make one umbrella, that doesn't fit all criteria.

Yeshua can no longer be any thing whatsoever if you read Ecclesiastes 9:5,6.

Ecclesiastes is rubbish, never read such a sour, not divine book; it has no clue what it is on about, and claims to be by Solomon the Preacher.

He is dead for 2000 years already and you are still dreaming about him.

Gilgul?

HaShem rejected Israel and confirmed Judah to remain as a lamp in Jerusalem forever

Well that clearly didn't happen 'for ever', 2nd temple was destroyed, and diaspora occurred... As stating a few times now, Judah paid 30 pieces of silver to divorce Yah-Avah.

It refers to no one on an individual basis but to Israel.

It seems like your not really looking to question anything, and just vehemently repeating something that is shown not to be true.

Read Isaiah 1:1; 2:1.

Then read the rest of Isaiah 1 condemning them as unholy, and full of blood or Isaiah 2 starts with the Messianic age, yet then goes on about how the house of Jacob is an abomination that shall be destroyed at the day of the Lord.

Again, back to your Christian doctrines of Yeshua's part in God's plan.

Isaiah 53:10 ...and Yahweh’s pleasure will prosper in his hand.

Can't you realize that you are asking us to accept a dead man as if he was the Messiah!

There is no death to those of God; the fact you believe there is, shows your own lack of understanding.

 

[Ben Avraham]

That isn't a very well placed definition, based on what the biblical text specifies; a Christian has to believe what Paul taught, 'that jesus is your lord and savior, who died to cleanse our sins'.

That's wrong! According to Ezekiel 18:3,20 and Jeremiah 31:30, no one can die for the sins of another. Are you implying that Jesus contradicted the Prophets of the Most High?

This to me is Anti-Torah, and more Pharisaic, thus i can't accept Christian ideologies; which were first established in Antioch, and applied to Paul's and Simon's ministry (Acts 11:25-26).

The whole NT is composed of Christian ideologies for heaven's sake!

Don't even start your rubbish; I'm genetically from the line of David.

Is that for the laughs or for the gags?

I didn't, the text of Isaiah 49:5 uses 'me' and 'my', i.e it is referring to the author being Isaiah.

No problem here as I agree with you.

Ecclesiastes is rubbish, never read such a sour, not divine book; it has no clue what it is on about, and claims to be by Solomon the Preacher.

Nevertheless it was canonized to be in the composition of the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach.

It seems like your not really looking to question anything, and just vehemently repeating something that is shown not to be true.

According to whom, you? That's hilarious!

Then read the rest of Isaiah 1 condemning them as unholy, and full of blood or Isaiah 2 starts with the Messianic age, yet then goes on about how the house of Jacob is an abomination that shall be destroyed at the day of the Lord.

That day is not for Judah who was confirmed to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Psalm 78:67-70)

Isaiah 53:10 ...and Yahweh’s pleasure will prosper in his hand.

Yahweh's pleasure is Judah who has prospered as a result of the atonement by Israel for Judah.

There is no death to those of God; the fact you believe there is, shows your own lack of understanding.

I tell you, all die and I can prove it to you. You tell me they won't die and you cannot prove any thing you say. Where is the lack of understanding? No one who has ever been born can live forever. When Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden, the reason was for them not to eat of the tree of life and live forever. Why? Because eternal life belongs with HaShem only. (Genesis 3:22)

 

[Fool]

There is only one king to reign in the Messianic age; unfortunately the collective are those chosen from out of the nations, and the remnant of Judah who respect the 'Marvelous Work' (Zechariah 8:6).

He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

[ The Three Angels ] Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people.

 

[wizanda]

You're clearly not paying any attention to what I've stated, no one could reply that fast, and have actually understood everything I've put, without a mass of research to even comprehend it, have you even gone to any of the links?

Are you implying that Jesus contradicted the Prophets of the Most High?

Paul, John and Simon follow the same Pharisaic oral traditions, "that the death of the righteous can atone for the sins of that generation'.

Yeshua in Matthew 23, Mark 7 condemns the Pharisees for such concepts.

The whole NT is composed of Christian ideologies for heaven's sake!

You've clearly not read that properly either.

Is that for the laughs or for the gags?

It isn't a laugh; the day of the Lord is soon, and you're sadly arguing with the wrong person.

Nevertheless it was canonized

Just because something is canonized, doesn't mean it is true; it just means we're near Hell, and people don't analyze properly.

According to whom, you? That's hilarious!

If someone said something like that to me, I'd question my actions, and see if i needed to adjust somewhere.

That day is not for Judah who was confirmed to remain as a People before the Lord forever.

David wrote the Psalms; after David, how many times has Judah been exiled, and kicked out of the nation?

Yahweh's pleasure is Judah who has prospered as a result of the atonement by Israel for Judah.

Judah wasn't made an atonement; you're just making stuff up.

Where is the lack of understanding? No one who has ever been born can live forever.

The Messianic age shall no longer have death.

 

[bnabernard]

I'm inclined to wonder where Absolam fits in the picture?

 

[Fool]

I tell you, all die and I can prove it to you. You tell me they won't die and you cannot prove any thing you say. Where is the lack of understanding? No one who has ever been born can live forever. When Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden, the reason was for them not to eat of the tree of life and live forever. Why? Because eternal life belongs with HaShem only. (Genesis 3:22)

The form, personality, dissolves but the Spirit is forever.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[Ben Avraham]

The form, personality, dissolves but the Spirit is forever.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The spirit here is a reference to the breath of life which was breathed into the nostrils of man so that man could become a living soul. (Genesis 2:7) The breath of life will be gone with the wind, so to speak when man passes away. There is nothing eternal about man but Sheol aka the grave. (Psalm 49:12,20)

Regarding Daniel 12:2, that's a reference to the Jews in exile. If you read Isaiah 53:8,9 when Jews are forced into exile, it is as if they are cut off from the land of the living and graves are assigned to them among the nations. At the end of the exile, HaShem opens up their metaphorical graves and brings them back to the Land of Israel as if to enjoy eternal life. But many of them choose to remain in exile to their reproach and abhorrent shame.

 

[wizanda]

Regarding Daniel 12:2, that's a reference to the Jews in exile.

Maybe learn Judaism before starting on other understandings, as one of the statements of being a Jew is that you accept the Resurrection of the Dead....

Rashi's commentary on that verse is that, 'The dead will come to life.'.... That concept is repeated throughout the Tanakh.

Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon 13 principles of Judaism has number 13:

'I believe with perfect faith that there will be a revival of the dead at the time when it shall please the Creator, Blessed be His name, and His mention shall be exalted for ever and ever.'

 

[Jedster]

Maybe learn Judaism before starting on other understandings, as one of the statements of being a Jew is that you accept the Resurrection of the Dead....

Rashi's commentary on that verse is that, 'The dead will come to life.'.... That concept is repeated throughout the Tanakh.

Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon 13 principles of Judaism has number 13:

'I believe with perfect faith that there will be a revival of the dead at the time when it shall please the Creator, Blessed be His name, and His mention shall be exalted for ever and ever.'

Sidebar (as in off the record) comment:>)
There are plenty of "Torah alone" Jews, just as there are plenty of "Quaran alone" Muslims.
So the commentries that are accepted by Rabbinic Jews don't hold the same value as Torah to these people.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Maybe learn Judaism before starting on other understandings, as one of the statements of being a Jew is that you accept the Resurrection of the Dead....

Rashi's commentary on that verse is that, 'The dead will come to life.'.... That concept is repeated throughout the Tanakh.

Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon 13 principles of Judaism has number 13:

'I believe with perfect faith that there will be a revival of the dead at the time when it shall please the Creator, Blessed be His name, and His mention shall be exalted for ever and ever.'

Once dead, no one will ever return from Sheol aka the grave. Read II Samuel 12:23; Psalm 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9. Rashi's commentary is a reference to the Jews in exile who come back to life if they make Aliyah. A revival of the dead as Maimonides is concerned is a reference to revival of the Faith aka to make Teshuvah into a New Jewish World Order. Nothing to do with bodily resurrection. This is a Christian doctrine from Hellenistic origin.

 

[wizanda]

A revival of the dead as Maimonides is concerned is a reference to revival of the Faith aka to make Teshuvah into a New Jewish World Order.

The Resurrection of the Dead
Maimonides #13 - Resurrection of the Dead

Rashi's commentary is a reference to the Jews in exile who come back to life if they make Aliyah.

The Talmud on The Resurrection
Chapter 14 On the Resurrection of the Dead | vbm haretzion

Will check with a Jewish professor later as well; yet please stop making up your own ideology, and then claiming it is Jewish or comes from certain Rabbis.

Nothing to do with bodily resurrection. This is a Christian doctrine from Hellenistic origin.

Having studied many religions globally, personally not aware of a Resurrection of the saints in Greek ideologies, though can show them from many other prophetic texts, all saying the same more or less.....

The Tanakh is quite clear on its own, without needing any of the New Testament.

 

[Ben Avraham]

The Resurrection of the Dead
Maimonides #13 - Resurrection of the Dead

The Talmud on The Resurrection Chapter 14 On the Resurrection of the Dead | vbm haretzion

Will check with a Jewish professor later as well; yet please stop making up your own ideology, and then claiming it is Jewish or comes from certain Rabbis.

Having studied many religions globally, personally not aware of a Resurrection of the saints in Greek ideologies, though can show them from many other prophetic texts, all saying the same more or less.....

The Tanakh is quite clear on its own, without needing any of the New Testament.

Maimonides does not speak about bodily resurrection. Please, stop trying to interpolate Christian doctrines into the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach! Principle of faith #13 is not about bodily resurrection. Now, from your saying that the Tanach is quite clear on its own about bodily resurrection, please, I am all ears. Quote to me a text teaching about bodily resurrection. If I am unable to tell you what the reference is about, I promise to review my lack of belief in bodily resurrection. So far the idea is Hellenistic, not Jewish.

The 13th Principle of Faith in Maimonides says, "The Lord will revive the dead." This has nothing to do with bodily resurrection. If you read Isaiah 53:8,9 for the Jews to be forced into exile, it is as if they have been cutoff from the Land of the Living and graves are assigned to them among the nations. At the end of the exile, the Lord opens up those metaphorical graves and brings them back to the Land of Israel. That's what happened with the Ezekiel's prophecy of the "Dry Bones". Jews getting dried without flesh in the graves of exile. (Ezekiel 37:12) To revive the dead is akin to recover one's faith by performing T'shuvah. This is very common about Jews returning to Judaism.

 

[wizanda]

Maimonides does not speak about bodily resurrection.

Have you got any proof to substantiate what you're saying; found Maimonides questioning the physical body, yet not the whole concept as you seem to?

Maimonidean Controversy

Here is Rambam's letter explaining his views.

Letter on Resurrection.pdf