The Concept of the Trinity

[des]

Meister Eckhart (who was of course considered by some to be a heretic) said that the Trinity could only be perceived by the intellect. Once a person gained union with God, God was perceived as one.

I've always liked Eckhart, but my own disclaimer is that I am not a Trinitarian, at least I don't think I am. Might change next week.

--des

 

[*Paul*]

God is beyond any earthly comparison, to try to show who God is without using scripture is like trying to show a blind man the colour red or to describe it to him. I know it is well meaning but it is truly impossible to achieve.

Isa 40v18: To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?

 

[sojourner]

I am unsure where you exactly stand on the Trinity.

In your idea of the Trinity, hypothetically, if you removed God the Father and the Holy Ghost, could Jesus fully function as God? Is Jesus Christ his own person?

What makes you think that either the Father or the HS can be taken out of the equation? Turning one's back on a thing does not render that thing unreal. We experience God as Trinity because we have experienced God as manifest in these three Persons. One does not need to stand "separately" from the other two in order to be valid.

 

[sojourner]

many people dismiss the bible , but me as one of Jehovahs witnesses i faithfully stick to the bible and what the bible teaches .
For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him. John 3;16-17 yes Jehovah the one true God psalm 83;18 sent his son to the earth and we are to listen to his son
(Luke 9:35) And a voice came out of the cloud, saying: "This is my Son, the one that has been chosen. Listen to him."................... yes the true God Jehovah and his son Jesus christ are the ones we should take in knowledge about .
This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. John 17;3 this is true bible teaching . the trinity is a manmade thing , which people make up many stories about. stick to the bible and you will not go wrong .

The Bible is also a manmade thing. Why is it a more valid expression of the Church than extra-Biblical documents?

 

[may]

Meister Eckhart (who was of course considered by some to be a heretic) said that the Trinity could only be perceived by the intellect. Once a person gained union with God, God was perceived as one.

I've always liked Eckhart, but my own disclaimer is that I am not a Trinitarian, at least I don't think I am. Might change next week.

--des

i am not a trinitarian ........... i stick to true bible teaching.

 

[may]

The Bible is also a manmade thing. Why is it a more valid expression of the Church than extra-Biblical documents?

All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work. 2 tim 3;16 i dont need to add any manmade doctrines on to the bible it is enough to stick to the bible .

 

[sojourner]

All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work. 2 tim 3;16 i dont need to add any manmade doctrines on to the bible it is enough to stick to the bible .

All Biblical doctrine is "man-made," because the Bible is "man-made." In fact, the Bible is, itself, a doctrinal statement of the Church (which is made up of people).

 

[Hema]

I don't know if non-Christians are allowed to post here. If not, I'm very sorry, Mods please feel free to remove my post. I don't want to debate anything. I just wanted to say that Hindus believe in a Trinity also. We believe in ONE God but since God has different roles, we call him/her by different names...just like how one man can be called father, brother, friend etc. All these names are not mandatory to learn and the truest name is Om. Anyway, the Holy Trinity of Hinduism is Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. God is referred to as Brahma when he is creating, Vishnu when he is sustaining and Shiva when he is destroying (Destroying sounds scary but it is really "reabsorbing". God will reabsorb creation into himself/herself.) So, Brahma created the universe, Vishnu is sustaining it and Shiva will reabsorb it, but they are all one and the same. I used to attend a Catholic High school and once during Mass, the Preist talked about the Hindu Trinity. It's just a similarity that I wanted to point out.

 

[YmirGF]

I don't know if non-Christians are allowed to post here. If not, I'm very sorry, Mods please feel free to remove my post. I don't want to debate anything. I just wanted to say that Hindus believe in a Trinity also. We believe in ONE God but since God has different roles, we call him/her by different names...just like how one man can be called father, brother, friend etc. All these names are not mandatory to learn and the truest name is Om. Anyway, the Holy Trinity of Hinduism is Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. God is referred to as Brahma when he is creating, Vishnu when he is sustaining and Shiva when he is destroying (Destroying sounds scary but it is really "reabsorbing". God will reabsorb creation into himself/herself.) So, Brahma created the universe, Vishnu is sustaining it and Shiva will reabsorb it, but they are all one and the same. I used to attend a Catholic High school and once during Mass, the Preist talked about the Hindu Trinity. It's just a similarity that I wanted to point out.

That is largely why I have no difficulty with the western/Christian concept of Trinity. It balances well with the Hindu concept. Ok.. I am a bit biased, lol.

 

[may]

All Biblical doctrine is "man-made," because the Bible is "man-made." In fact, the Bible is, itself, a doctrinal statement of the Church (which is made up of people).

the bible is inspired of God , but manmade doctrines are as you say made by men, i am glad to find that there is a people who are faithful to the inspired word of God the bible , they are spoken of in matthew 24;45-47 and Jesus is right now feeding them great spiritual food, and this food is all from the inspired word of God the bible . but some down the centuries have not remained faithful to what Jesus taught in the bible, so they are no longer fed by Jesus , they are fed manmade doctrines

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

:shout Praise God I can use this forums again. I have been inactive for almost a YEAR now, since I have the time I would start using this forum to the MAX. To sart with I would sate my simple belief Concerning the Trinity, I am a Roman CAtholic since many people outside the Church and Christianity even, don't understand the Trinity doctrine, I would explain it on laymen's term. I wouldn't use Bible verses just simple logic!!! Imagine a simple apple, It is made up of 3 parts, the skin, the seed and the inside part of it (I don't know what it is called). Although it is made up of 3 simple parts it is still an apple. No matter what happens it is an apple. We can compare this to the Trinity, just as the same that the father is not the son, is the same as saying the Skin of the apple is not the seed of the apple, however they are still a part of the Apple. The Apple Represents the MOst Holy Trinity, 3 Persons in 1 Divine Nature, So in other words we only worship one God rather than 3, That is the BIGGEST Mystery of the Christian life, the Mystery of the Trinity

Peace
GBU

What if there is a worm then does it too become a part of the trinity, you say no matter what happens it is an apple. How can the skin of the apple be the same as the seed of the apple. One helps in procreation and the other to protect the outer exterior.

and answer why the Protestants do not agree with this concept, and also list where this idea of trinity is supported by the bible. where is the word Trinity stated, and what scriptures do you have with the testimony of Jesus or God or both to affirm the trinity as being a doctrine in belief when did they ever state it in the bible. also where is this idea of trinity stated within the previous messages of previous Prophets and Messengers.

Also who was Jesus as your scriptures talking to when he was praying if he is as you say fully god.
Does god pray to someone other then himself. the bible says there is only one God.

so who is Jesus(God?) praying to and who did he teach the disciples to pray to if he is fully God?

why would God who is a jealous God teach his followers to pray to someone other then himself for if Jesus is god why did he not instruct them to direct their prayers towards him since as God he is clearly standing in front of them and since.

I do not want to debate or start anything I am just curious and trying to understand the logic they present from evidence and statements in the bible? If you could explain please as in my questions from above how if Jesus is fully God then why does he speak about God as if he is not God. Like the verses where he says I have no strength or power except FROM THE ONE WHO SENT ME. Did God send himself. I do not understand and please moderators forgive me if as a muslim I am not allowed to ask. I am not trying to start anything I just do not understand this style if Logic they present from what is stated in the bible.

thanks I appreciate your patience

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

i am not a trinitarian ........... i stick to true bible teaching.

Now I am really confused? How come you are not a trinitarian and you read from the bible like the catholics or other trinitarians. Also how come yours is more authentic when they came clearly first and the catholics are the keepers of the most authentic texts of the bible and should have the closest interpretation to the original since they came way, way before JW.

What are the true bible teachings in this regard.

 

[michel]

What if there is a worm then does it too become a part of the trinity, you say no matter what happens it is an apple. How can the skin of the apple be the same as the seed of the apple. One helps in procreation and the other to protect the outer exterior.

and answer why the Protestants do not agree with this concept, and also list where this idea of trinity is supported by the bible. where is the word Trinity stated, and what scriptures do you have with the testimony of Jesus or God or both to affirm the trinity as being a doctrine in belief when did they ever state it in the bible. also where is this idea of trinity stated within the previous messages of previous Prophets and Messengers.

Also who was Jesus as your scriptures talking to when he was praying if he is as you say fully god.
Does god pray to someone other then himself. the bible says there is only one God.

so who is Jesus(God?) praying to and who did he teach the disciples to pray to if he is fully God?

why would God who is a jealous God teach his followers to pray to someone other then himself for if Jesus is god why did he not instruct them to direct their prayers towards him since as God he is clearly standing in front of them and since.

I do not want to debate or start anything I am just curious and trying to understand the logic they present from evidence and statements in the bible? If you could explain please as in my questions from above how if Jesus is fully God then why does he speak about God as if he is not God. Like the verses where he says I have no strength or power except FROM THE ONE WHO SENT ME. Did God send himself. I do not understand and please moderators forgive me if as a muslim I am not allowed to ask. I am not trying to start anything I just do not understand this style if Logic they present from what is stated in the bible.

thanks I appreciate your patience

I have tried so many times to explain the Trinity (in which I believe); this time, I have found a site that explains it for followers of Islam
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/trinity_brief.htm
I am not sure about one of the first sentences.........

As for Islam, Muhammad promises a painful punishment (i.e. hell) for Christians who believe in the Trinity:

The start of the article is
. Where does this doctrine come from?
This doctrine comes from the New Testament with hints from the Old Testament. Four passages represent others.
First, at the baptism of Jesus, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit were present. As soon as Jesus came up out of the water, "he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, ‘This is my Son, whom I love and with him I am well pleased’" (Matt. 3:16-17). The Father’s voice sounded from above and affirmed the Sonship of Jesus, and the Holy Spirit descended on him and empowered him.
Second, at the end of the same Gospel, Jesus is resurrected, and he commissions the disciples to go into all the world and preach the gospel. These two verses are part of the Great Commission, which Evangelicals take seriously. "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" ... (Matt 28:18-19).
This passage affirms that Jesus was granted all authority in heaven and on earth. This raises him high above a mere prophet. This passage also demonstrates Jesus’ early declaration of the Trinity. Therefore, this doctrine comes from him, originally.

But, if you are inerested, no doubt you will have a look at the page.

 

[Mr. Hair]

since I have the time I would start using this forum to the MAX.

*smiles*

Consider a short, sharp shock of fruballation an adequate repaste for an interesting thread.

To sart with I would sate my simple belief Concerning the Trinity, I am a Roman CAtholic since many people outside the Church and Christianity even, don't understand the Trinity doctrine, I would explain it on laymen's term. I wouldn't use Bible verses just simple logic!!!

I've tended personally to see the Trinity as going beyond logic and even understanding, to lend one beyond considering the primacy of intellectual concepts and abstractions. The Trinity is ultimately to be experienced, not understood or rationalised.

To paraphase another teaching from another religion; the way that can be spoken is not the Way, names that can be named are not eternal Names.

Imagine a simple apple, It is made up of 3 parts, the skin, the seed and the inside part of it (I don't know what it is called). Although it is made up of 3 simple parts it is still an apple. No matter what happens it is an apple. We can compare this to the Trinity, just as the same that the father is not the son, is the same as saying the Skin of the apple is not the seed of the apple, however they are still a part of the Apple.

An interesting and thoughtful analogy, albiet one which I (quite obviously, given my earlier musings) do not particularly share.

Incidentally, when you were writing did you attach one aspect of the apple to an aspect of the Trinity, say the Father with the seeds, or did you consider them interchangeable?

The Apple Represents the MOst Holy Trinity, 3 Persons in 1 Divine Nature

Forgive me for asking but isn't that one of the oldest misunderstanding and/or mistranslations of the early greek concept of the Trinity, namely reading 'three persons in one nature/substance' whereas the original meaning is somewhat closer to 'three substances in one essence'?

*MOD POST*
FOR THOSE MEMBERS WHO ARE NOT CHRISTIAN, PLEASE BE MINDFUL THAT THIS IS A CHRISTIAN FORUM, FOR UNDERSTANDING OF CHRISTIANITY. NO DEBATE IS ALLOWED.

*looks worried*

God is beyond any earthly comparison, to try to show who God is without using scripture is like trying to show a blind man the colour red or to describe it to him.

Why does that change if one uses scripture to buttress one's argument? Surely even if God herself directly penned the bible (a belief I don't hold), it's message(s) has been translated into an earthly form, or any understanding of it would be beyond us, and such understandings are filtered through our own equally-earthly perspectives? Or have I got something wrong along the way?

(I'm debating whether to include or not another strategically placed question mark... )

I should add that I'm more interested in hearing an answer then debating a premise, by the by.

 

[PHOTOTAKER]

to people who belive in the trinity; what to you dose the Godhead repersent?

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. would be one example in the bible..

 

[may]

Now I am really confused? How come you are not a trinitarian and you read from the bible like the catholics or other trinitarians. Also how come yours is more authentic when they came clearly first and the catholics are the keepers of the most authentic texts of the bible and should have the closest interpretation to the original since they came way, way before JW.

What are the true bible teachings in this regard.

true bible teaching does not teach the trinity , this manmade doctrine was slowly and surely brought into the church by religious leaders not sticking to Jesus teachings . and the bible foretold that this would happen. yes from among themselves they brought in false teachings. and the immortality of the human soul is another of these false teachings. they have not remained faithful to Jesus, but there is a faithful class of people who Jesus is using in these last days, and they are spoken of in matthew 24;45-47 and they are feeding others with lots of good spiritual food . and it is all bible based good food. and Jehovah and Jesus is revealing and uncovering lots of things from the bible in this time of the end.Daniel 12;4

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

I have tried so many times to explain the Trinity (in which I believe); this time, I have found a site that explains it for followers of Islam
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/trinity_brief.htm
I am not sure about one of the first sentences.........

read it and wow, it still was not very clear on what it is really. You know it just said the The Father is not the son, the son is not...But that still makes no sense to me. Because it gave no clear definitive statement concerning it. You know like the verse in John 5:7, which is present depending on the version of the bible you have. Thanks though, do you have any other articles that may be a little clearer. Thanks Michel

The start of the article is
. Where does this doctrine come from?
This doctrine comes from the New Testament with hints from the Old Testament. Four passages represent others.
First, at the baptism of Jesus, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit were present. As soon as Jesus came up out of the water, "he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, ‘This is my Son, whom I love and with him I am well pleased’" (Matt. 3:16-17). The Father’s voice sounded from above and affirmed the Sonship of Jesus, and the Holy Spirit descended on him and empowered him.
Second, at the end of the same Gospel, Jesus is resurrected, and he commissions the disciples to go into all the world and preach the gospel. These two verses are part of the Great Commission, which Evangelicals take seriously. "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" ... (Matt 28:18-19).

This passage affirms that Jesus was granted all authority in heaven and on earth. This raises him high above a mere prophet. This passage also demonstrates Jesus’ early declaration of the Trinity. Therefore, this doctrine comes from him, originally.

But, if you are inerested, no doubt you will have a look at the page.

read it and the verse Math3:16 where is it stated that they are all equal in this passage, however it does say that the angel enpowered him. Why would the angel need to give Jesus power if they are all the same. And if all of their power is the same then when the angel gave Jesus is the angels power less now. And if Jesus is like the Father who we know is All Power, and Self Sufficient why would God need to give power to himself when He created the power to begin with. And how is someone who is infinite in power in need of enpowerment.

Also the verse Mark 16:15 I have a quote from the Peake's Commentary on the Bible that I would like your understanding and comments on in terms of how authentic their claim is i mean this author says it is a standard of bible reference for students is this true and what do you think about the comment is it agreeable with all the known facts we have about scripture today. Just curious because a Christian friend of mine told me it was a good source but you know I like to ask others to get their opinion.

"this mission is described in the language of the church and most commentators doubt that the Trinitarian formula was original at this point in Mt.'s Gospel, since the NT elsewhere does not know of such a formula and describes baptism as being performed in the name of the Lord Jesus (e.g. Ac. 2:28, 8:16, etc.)" Peake's Commentary on the Bible published since 1919.

I mean when as a non christian you read verses like Duet 4:39, John 14:28,10:23-30,1:18,4:12 Ephesians 4:6, and especially John 5:37 it just gets very confusing as to when he is fully god or is he is part God and how you know etc. etc. etc. All the things everyone has already asked. It just is not very clear and is quite confusing.

Corinthians 14:33 which I believe is true, maybe no christian can give a real unified meaning of the trinity, but I would really like someone to answer me why and how all this happened. why is it like that? why is there no clear answer as to what it is. How come God with all the Power, Knowledge, Magesty, Mercy, and Control over all things let something this important get to the point where no one can explain it cleary.

How can God who is all Knowing and taught man what he knew not and taught him the use of the pen, and who knows His creation better then it knows itself and gave us everything we have that makes clear sense not give us a book of guidance with a clear way of understanding who He is.

any help would be appreciated I sincerely want to understand this from where I am at now in terms of understanding things I want someone to please help me really understand this thing called the trinity.

You guys and gals I would really love all your opinions on this issue and your opinion on Peake's nowadays because the guy that told me about it was an old man I know. thanks you guys and gals i really appreciate your patience with me as a non christian and taking the time to try and explain a very important part of your belief.

May God make your journey and path easy in all endeavors.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

true bible teaching does not teach the trinity , this manmade doctrine was slowly and surely brought into the church by religious leaders not sticking to Jesus teachings .

When did this happen exactly.

and the bible foretold that this would happen.

Where and in which one is it in all of them.

yes from among themselves they brought in false teachings. and the immortality of the human soul is another of these false teachings. they have not remained faithful to Jesus, but there is a faithful class of people who Jesus is using in these last days, and they are spoken of in matthew 24;45-47 and they are feeding others with lots of good spiritual food . and it is all bible based good food. and Jehovah and Jesus is revealing and uncovering lots of things from the bible in this time of the end.Daniel 12;4

Wow, any comments from the other Christians, I think I will let them answer the issue concerning who, and when these as you say false teachings of the bible.

Just out of curiosity who is the founder of the JW, and do you guys accept his interpretation of the bible or is it someone else who came later. Do you have any literature concerning this person's understanding of the bible and why the person felt the need to break away and that what had been done to the bible was enough for him to break away from the majority of Christianity.

When did this split happen do you have any reference material for this. when was the defection from mainstream Christianity.

Thanks for your taking to time to answer me back. I really appreciate it may Allah bless you for the good you have done.

 

[may]

When did this happen exactly.
Where and in which one is it in all of them.


Thanks for your taking to time to answer me back. I really appreciate it may Allah bless you for the good you have done.

Even from your own ranks there will be men coming forward with a travesty of the truth on their lips to induce the disciples to follow them." (Acts 20:29, 30, JB) Other disciples of Jesus also wrote of this apostasy with its ‘lawless’ clergy class.—See, for example, 2 Peter 2:1; 1 John 4:1-3; Jude 3, 4. the trinity teaching is just one of the false teaching that Jesus did not teach , and many down through the centuries have been misled by this false teaching.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Even from your own ranks there will be men coming forward with a travesty of the truth on their lips to induce the disciples to follow them." (Acts 20:29, 30, JB) Other disciples of Jesus also wrote of this apostasy with its ‘lawless’ clergy class.—See, for example, 2 Peter 2:1; 1 John 4:1-3; Jude 3, 4. the trinity teaching is just one of the false teaching that Jesus did not teach , and many down through the centuries have been misled by this false teaching.

? , is this verse to prove that there is no trinity and affirming your position that the trinity is baseless.

I would however love for any of the believers of the trinity to give me some of your insight pertaining to my questions above about the understanding of the trinity within the context of the verses of the bible I pointed out.