The Copper Scroll

[Subduction Zone]

That article confirms everything I suspected about Barfield and more. He may even be a charlatan as well as a crank.

He is extremely similar to Ron Wyatt from what I have seen. Are you familiar with Wyatt's "work" at all?

 

[exchemist]

He is extremely similar to Ron Wyatt from what I have seen. Are you familiar with Wyatt's "work" at all?

Vaguely. He's the Noah's Ark crank, isn't he? Did we have a thread on him a couple of years ago?

Ooh, wait a moment, it seems we did. And guess who it was who started a thread on it.
The truth behind Ron Wyatt's archaeological discoveries.

 

[Regiomontanus]

Is there? This was discovered decades ago. I'm not saying it's not a cool find, I'm just wondering whether there really is a new wave of interest and if so, why would that be?

To this day there are disagreements whether the scroll is talking about a real cache or is fictitious or blowing things out of proportion. In any case, no such treasure has been found. Yet, whatever the find may be if ever found, I doubt it would spark heavy - if any - interest in the Temple.

As for plans for the next Temple, you may want to check this out: About us - Temple Institute

What is level of support, among Israelis, for the building of a new Temple?

The animal lover in me hates the thought of animal sacrifices resuming, I must say.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Vaguely. He's the Noah's Ark crank, isn't he? Did we have a thread on him a couple of years ago?

Ooh, wait a moment, it seems we did. And guess who it was who started a thread on it.
The truth behind Ron Wyatt's archaeological discoveries.

Yeah, good old Ron was the self proclaimed Indiana Jones of biblical archaeology. If it was lost or missing he found it. I loved his pictures of "chariot wheels" from the parting of the Red Sea story. He took pictures of modern day bronze valve wheels from ships and claimed that they were wheels that had miraculously survived 3,000 years under saltwater and were almost pristine.

 

[exchemist]

Yeah, good old Ron was the self proclaimed Indiana Jones of biblical archaeology. If it was lost or missing he found it. I loved his pictures of "chariot wheels" from the parting of the Red Sea story. He took pictures of modern day bronze valve wheels from ships and claimed that they were wheels that had miraculously survived 3,000 years under saltwater and were almost pristine.

What really disturbs me about this sort of thing is that there is so obviously a ready market for this crap, of people yearning to believe these things can be found, to prove the stories in the bible are all literally true. People can make a fortune out of the credulity of others this way, via books, videos and talks, even if it is all hogwash.

I've really no idea if this retired fireman is a charlatan or just deluding himself, Dunning-Kruger style, because of his personal beliefs. But from everything I've now read about this, he doesn't know what he's doing. His ideas seem to be dismissed by all the relevant experts.

 

[Redemptionsong]

What really disturbs me about this sort of thing is that there is so obviously a ready market for this crap, of people yearning to believe these things can be found, to prove the stories in the bible are all literally true. People can make a fortune out the credulity of others this way, via books, videos and talks, even if it is all hogwash.

I've really no idea if this retired fireman is a charlatan or just deluding himself, Dunning-Kruger style, because of his personal beliefs. But from everything I've now read about this, he doesn't know what he's doing. His ideas seem to be dismissed by all the relevant experts.

Clearly much of this debate is directly related to the Bible, and to the historical truth of the scriptures as they relate to figures such as Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, David and the like.

So, let's hear where you stand on these issues of fact and historicity.

 

[exchemist]

Clearly much of this debate is directly related to the Bible, and to the historical truth of the scriptures as they relate to figures such as Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, David and the like.

So, let's hear where you stand on these issues of fact and historicity.

Like most mainstream Christians, I think the story of Noah is a myth, probably the same Middle Eastern myth as mentioned in the Epic of Gilgamesh. But you already know that, from last year's thread.

As for Abraham, Moses, Joshua and David, I have no firm view on whether or not they are historical figures, not having studied these topics. What does seem clear is that there is no historical evidence for the story of escape from Egyptian captivity as portrayed in Exodus.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Yeah, good old Ron was the self proclaimed Indiana Jones of biblical archaeology. If it was lost or missing he found it. I loved his pictures of "chariot wheels" from the parting of the Red Sea story. He took pictures of modern day bronze valve wheels from ships and claimed that they were wheels that had miraculously survived 3,000 years under saltwater and were almost pristine.

If you bother to research this topic of Mount Sinai, you'll see that Ron Wyatt's beliefs about the true location of the Horeb site are based upon sound principles, now accepted by many. Saudi Arabia is a far more likely site for Horeb than the Sinai desert.

Once again, the real issue is not about the individual explorer so much as the Bible as a accurate historical document [as well as being much more].

Ron Wyatt and Jim Barfield are just two amongst thousands of non-experts who have had the 'audacity' to believe the scriptures to be accurate, geographically and historically.

 

[Subduction Zone]

If you bother to research this topic of Mount Sinai, you'll see that Ron Wyatt's beliefs about the true location of the Horeb site are based upon sound principles, now accepted by many. Saudi Arabia is a far more likely site for Horeb than the Sinai desert.

Once again, the real issue is not about the individual explorer so much as the Bible as a accurate historical document [as well as being much more].

Ron Wyatt and Jim Barfield are just two amongst thousands of non-experts who have had the 'audacity' to believe the scriptures to be accurate, geographically and historically.

I am sorry but Ron Wyatt was a fraud. None of his work was based upon sound principles. Nor are any of Barfield's work. Real scholars laugh at them.

Now if you would like I can help you to understand how we know that parts of the Bible are mythical.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Like most mainstream Christians, I think the story of Noah is a myth, probably the same Middle Eastern myth as mentioned in the Epic of Gilgamesh. But you already know that, from last year's thread.

As for Abraham, Moses, Joshua and David, I have no firm view on whether or not they are historical figures, not having studied these topics. What does seem clear is that there is no historical evidence for the story of escape from Egyptian captivity as portrayed in Exodus.

As a mainstream Roman Catholic Christian, you also believe that Mary was the mother of God?

 

[Redemptionsong]

I am sorry but Ron Wyatt was a fraud. None of his work was based upon sound principles. Nor are any of Barfield's work. Real scholars laugh at them.

Now if you would like I can help you to understand how we know that parts of the Bible are mythical.

You're saying 'real scholars laugh at them' without any personal knowledge of either character.

And yes, please go ahead and show me how to distinguish between the mythical and non-mythical parts of the Bible. This should be interesting.

 

[Subduction Zone]

As a mainstream Roman Catholic Christian, you also believe that Mary was the mother of God?

I thought that she was supposed to be the mother of Jesus.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You're saying 'real scholars laugh at them' this without any personal knowledge of either character.

And yes, please go ahead and show me how to distinguish between the mythical and non-mythical parts of the Bible. This should be interesting.

I have plenty of knowledge of Wyatt. Barfield I was just introduced to, but it takes no time to realize that he also dupes the ignorant.

Are you willing to learn a little science? And one very important question, does God lie?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I subscribe to the YouTuber that made the following video. It just came out and deals with Ron Wyatt's "I found Sodom and Gomorrah" claim.

 

[exchemist]

As a mainstream Roman Catholic Christian, you also believe that Mary was the mother of God?

This is now completely off topic. I am not going to indulge you in a fishing expedition about the details of my personal beliefs.

Before I answer any more of your questions, you still owe me an answer on what your agenda is, by the way (see post 40).

 

[Redemptionsong]

I thought that she was supposed to be the mother of Jesus.

I agree.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I have plenty of knowledge of Wyatt. Barfield I was just introduced to, but it takes no time to realize that he also dupes the ignorant.

Are you willing to learn a little science? And one very important question, does God lie?

I'm willing to accept that people with good intentions get things wrong. That's far from stating that a person sets out to dupe others.

I do not agree with Ron Wyatt's beliefs about Sodom and Gomorrah. The more likely position, IMO, is north of the Dead Sea.

I do not believe that God is a liar.

 

[Redemptionsong]

My agenda in this thread is to call out codswallop masquerading as fact. I consider that a service to society.

What's yours?

My interest is in the Bible, and in truth. That's my agenda.

I am interested to know what the implications for all of us would be, were temple vessels etc found. Would this increase the likelihood of a temple being rebuilt? [And questions as set out in OP]

At present, I am unsure as to whether scripture mentions another physical temple. Ezekiel 40-end is difficult to interpret.

As I have already stated, I do not believe, as a Christian, that a physical and temporal temple is necessary any longer. But, for many Jews, in particular those who do not accept Jesus as Messiah, the need for a temple, is, IMO, a necessary requirement for fulfilment of the Torah.

As for my question to you, it is not asked out of context to this discussion. You have made the point all along that only the 'experts' should be believed, but from my studies in the area of religion the 'experts' are just as likely to express subjective views as those less formally qualified. To a lesser extent, the same can be said of archaeology. In my readings about the excavations at Qumran, it's quite apparent that one expert archaeologist's summary, such as that of de Vaux, might differ significantly from another, such as Donceel, or the Lonnqvists. In other words, even experts can be wrong. They have a body of evidence which enables them to make hypotheses, which can be wrong, and as further evidence emerges, new hypotheses emerge.

Faith is, IMO, an important part of life, and yet you appear to be undermining faith, saying that it has no place in a rational world. However, you also believe things that are based on faith, not logic or reason, which is why I asked the question about Mary.

 

[exchemist]

My interest is in the Bible, and in truth. That's my agenda.

I am interested to know what the implications for all of us would be, were temple vessels etc found. Would this increase the likelihood of a temple being rebuilt? [And questions as set out in OP]

At present, I am unsure as to whether scripture mentions another physical temple. Ezekiel 40-end is difficult to interpret.

As I have already stated, I do not believe, as a Christian, that a physical and temporal temple is necessary any longer. But, for many Jews, in particular those who do not accept Jesus as Messiah, the need for a temple, is, IMO, a necessary requirement for fulfilment of the Torah.

As for my question to you, it is not asked out of context to this discussion. You have made the point all along that only the 'experts' should be believed, but from my studies in the area of religion the 'experts' are just as likely to express subjective views as those less formally qualified. To a lesser extent, the same can be said of archaeology. In my readings about the excavations at Qumran, it's quite apparent that one expert archaeologist's summary, such as that of de Vaux, might differ significantly from another, such as Donceel, or the Lonnqvists. In other words, even experts can be wrong. They have a body of evidence which enables them to make hypotheses, which can be wrong, and as further evidence emerges, new hypotheses emerge.

Faith is, IMO, an important part of life, and yet you appear to be undermining faith, saying that it has no place in a rational world. However, you also believe things that are based on faith, not logic or reason, which is why I asked the question about Mary.

But faith undermines itself when it demands allegiance to ideas that can be shown to be nonsensical. It further undermines itself when it is taken in by charlatans.

Intelligent faith does its best to avoid such pitfalls.

 

[Clara Tea]

To be fair to Jim Barfield, he was the first to state that his qualifications, or lack of formal qualifications, would cast doubts over his findings. He was not claiming to have discovered the scrolls, but to have deciphered the writings in a very literalist manner, which led him to make some extraordinary findings at the Qumran site.

The fact that some authorities in Israel are now taking notice of this should tell us that his findings have not yet been dismissed.

There are, without doubt, a number of competing interest groups in these archaeological enquiries, some of which have the power to cloud an honest investigation. It's even more important, given these interests, that a honest assessment should be based on the quality of the evidence.

Copper Scroll

According to the Wikipedia link, above, some scholars believe that the Romans had captured the fortune, perhaps by torture.

Many things, thought to have been lost through the ages, I believe, are in the possession of their original owners (progeny), and not lost at all. For example, the Ark of the Covenant was only supposed to be opened every 1,000 years by the Jewish calendar, but it was opened in the Christian year 2,000 since we are in the end times now, and the world will end soon. It is such a valuable item that the owners don't wish it to be known to exist.

The treasure might have been from 586 BC at the destruction of Solomon's temple (at the hands of Babylonian king, Nebuchadnezzar). Solomon's gold mines have recently been found (a lot of slag litters the area).