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The Cosmological Argument

shawn001

Well-Known Member
The big bang theory is JUst that the universe was hot and dense in the past. Not about how it started.

However, running it back in time like a movie you get a singluarity and the four fundemtal forces are combined. Space and time for OUR universe starts with the expansion of the universe because of "spacetime."
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
You said everything that exist has a beginning and a cause. So if god exist he or she had to have a beginning


begining is a measurement of time. No time? what begining?

Things can also have causes that are 100% natural, no supernatural GOD needed for the process.
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
You said everything that exist has a beginning and a cause. So if god exist he or she had to have a beginning
Not everything that exists, only something that had a beginning needs a cause. God did not have a beginning so he needs no cause.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
Yes, energy had a beginning and from the first 2 laws of thermodynamics it is winding down.

Energy cannot be created nor destroyed. Wasn´t this a thermodinamics law?

The specific form that energy may take has a begining and an end, but energy itself doesn´t.
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
Energy cannot be created nor destroyed. Wasn´t this a thermodinamics law?

The specific form that energy may take has a begining and an end, but energy itself doesn´t.
The 2nd law says the amount of energy available for work is running down.
 

Tonymai

Lonesome Religionist
The aim of the cosmological argument isn't to reason God "into" existence but rather to bring reason to the theist's side of the table. Beliefs without justification are by definition irrational, so it seems prudent to offer some justification for the belief that a god or gods exist at all. Unfortunately, this particular argument doesn't work out that way.

The only justification a theist can offer is his personal experiences from his belief. Or the experiences with his belief justifies his belief. This is rational to him. For a non-believer, the non-believing experiences justifies the non-believing. The believer looks the reality from inside out, and the non-believer from outside in.

Natural man sees reality from outside in; therefore, a true believer has two perspectives; however, it is not possible to argue with people who are brain-washed with a single perspective, be it theist or atheist.
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
If you provide me a source I would most likely be able to explain that to you.
Ok, I just now went to a science site:

Second Law of Thermodynamics

Here are brief excerpts:

The First Law of Thermodynamics, states that matter/energy cannot be created nor can it be destroyed. The quantity of matter/energy remains the same...the total amount of matter/energy in the universe remains constant.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics is commonly known as the Law of Increased Entropy. While quantity remains the same (First Law), the quality of matter/energy deteriorates gradually over time. How so? Usable energy is inevitably used for productivity, growth and repair. In the process, usable energy is converted into unusable energy. Thus, usable energy is irretrievably lost in the form of unusable energy.
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
If god didn't have a beginning then god cannot exist according to the cosmological argument
If God didn't have a beginning, God did not have a cause. Since the universe had a beginning it had to have a cause, and that would be God. That's what I deduce.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
If God didn't have a beginning, God did not have a cause. Since the universe had a beginning it had to have a cause, and that would be God. That's what I deduce.

The beining of this universe could have been caused by the "unusable" energy of the universe before this, at the end of al it´s entrophy.

Have you read Isaac Asimov´s last question by the way?

You´d probably like it I would assume :D
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Hi Meow Mix, thanks for your reply. I see what you are saying and it actually makes sense, I think. I don't know that this current universe could reset, but a new one might from my belief that there will be a new heaven and earth. While the equation does not break the 2 laws, what I would imagine if the universe existed forever, and ignoring the Poincare Reccurance, what would have happened is that since there is a certain limited amount of mass energy, and the amount of usable energy is decreasing, it would already have exhausted all usable energy and reached heat death. So, all the radioactive atoms would have decayed, the whole universe would be the same temperature, and no more work would be possible. It seems (to me) the universe started with a lot of energy and is now running down. Even if we are in one of those pockets, eventually, given forever, the energy available for work would run down. I'm not saying that your Reccurance cannot happen, I just don't know that it IS happening but I don't know much on the subject, so my ideas are pretty simple and straightforward. If I get a chance I'll check it out more in depth, because it is very interesting and I thank you for sharing that. Oh, and Happy Thanksgiving!

Java, even without considering Poincare recurrence it approaches certainty that parts of the universe will have decreased entropy through chance alone. Again, this goes back to thermodynamics being completely probablistic.

Consider what happens when you knock a billiard ball into a pocket in a pool game: the ball loses energy rolling across the table, converts its gravitational potential energy to kinetic energy as it falls, converts *that* energy in the collision with the pocket in the form of sound, heat, and the deformation of the ball's structure -- so on and so forth.

What's to prevent the ball from jumping back onto the table and rolling back to the cue stick?

In truth, nothing is besides statistics. If all the sound energy, heat energy, elastic energy and so forth were applied to the ball in the same places where they left it, it would have exactly the right amount of energy to be propelled up onto the table and roll over to the tip of the cue stick that originally knocked it in.

The interesting thing is that if some physicist were to watch these interactions happening on an atomic level, nothing would look different: there would be no way to tell whether the tape was rolling backwards or forwards (so to say). The arrow of time only gets its meaning from the entropic gradient, and the entropic gradient only gets its meaning from statistics.

Given an infinite amount of time, anything with a non-zero probability of occurring approaches certainty of happening: furthermore, it approaches certainty of happening infinitely often.

What is the probability that some pocket of the megaverse will reduce its entropy enough to look something like a big bang or like the visible universe we're familiar with today? It's so exceedingly, laughably small that it might as well be zero -- but it's not zero. Since we're talking about the possibility of an infinite time span, it then approaches certainty that yes, even given the heat death of the universe, there will eventually be pockets that reverse their entropy through sheer chance alone all the way to Big Bang Event states an infinite number of times.

This is not the same as "cyclical universe" models with a Big Bang and a Big Crunch; though there are some similarities.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
The only justification a theist can offer is his personal experiences from his belief. Or the experiences with his belief justifies his belief. This is rational to him. For a non-believer, the non-believing experiences justifies the non-believing. The believer looks the reality from inside out, and the non-believer from outside in.

Natural man sees reality from outside in; therefore, a true believer has two perspectives; however, it is not possible to argue with people who are brain-washed with a single perspective, be it theist or atheist.

There are five sources of justification:
1) Sensory perception
2) Memory
3) Introspection
4) Testimony/Anecdote
5) Reason

Of these five, some are secondary: memory, introspection, and testimony all ultimately rely on either sensory perception or reason. Therefore if theists have some method with which to justify their belief, they should be able to share it.

Of course, this is assuming they're making statements with truth values. I can know through introspection that I like the color green -- but that's not a statement with a truth value (e.g., "green is a good color"), so of course I don't have to justify that.

Statements like "A god exists" or "The world was flooded" or "Humanity started with two humans in a garden" are statements with truth values that do require justification in order to be rational -- justification that is sorely, sorely lacking as far as I can see.
 

Orontes

Master of the Horse
There are five sources of justification:
1) Sensory perception
2) Memory
3) Introspection
4) Testimony/Anecdote
5) Reason

Of these five, some are secondary: memory, introspection, and testimony all ultimately rely on either sensory perception or reason.

Hello,

I agree that sense perception and reason would enfold the other three sources you mention. There are traditions that would add to your list. For lack of a better term, this addition would be the mystical. If we use satori from the Zen Tradition as an example: the experience does not entail sensory perception. It is arational and subject specific. Yet, it remains the ultimate justification for the tradition.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Hello,

I agree that sense perception and reason would enfold the other three sources you mention. There are traditions that would add to your list. For lack of a better term, this addition would be the mystical. If we use satori from the Zen Tradition as an example: the experience does not entail sensory perception. It is arational and subject specific. Yet, it remains the ultimate justification for the tradition.

Can you provide an example?

"A-rational" is another term for irrational, by the way.
 

Orontes

Master of the Horse
Can you provide an example?

"A-rational" is another term for irrational, by the way.

Satori in the Zen Tradition was my example.

Arational is distinct from irrational. Irrationality is the misuse of reason. Arationality is outside of reason as in, does not appeal to reason.
 
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