The creator did it.

[shunyadragon]

That's the same old cop-out non-answer that all religious people give.

Everything needs a cause and a beginning except our god.
​

The only good response to that is "Uncastrated Adult Male Bovine Feces".

The Baha'i Faith, and I do not claim everything needs a cause and a beginning. This is an awkward claim among many Christians.

 

[Audie]

The structure, shape and functionality of the human body.

But not the filaria worm, No way on that.

filaria worm - Google Search:

 

[Rapture Era]

I don't think that it is sincere for you to say that science shows that life does not come from non-living things...this goes against what one can find often claimed as an assumption and a goal for science to puzzle out and there are plenty of ideas and even experiments which are looking at how life emerged from non-living biochemical processes.

If you would like to learn more about this I would be glad to look up some sources and post them here if others haven't already done so.

For instance there is an entire field of biochemistry where one is looking at the chemical (non-living) interactions involved in biological (living) systems.

Has anyone addressed the question of where the information came from? We now know that all living things have DNA, and in that DNA is a genetic code. That code contains information to build that specific structure. That's why we observe plants, trees, insects, birds, fish, animals and human beings which reproduce after that specific coded information of that specific species. None of them cross over because the genetic code doesn't allow it to. Like a computer program, it doesn't function outside of it's programming. Yes there is room for variation, we see this in dogs for one example. We see a huge variety but they are still dogs, they don't jump or evolve into something else outside of that spicies because the genetic code doesn't allow it to. Citrus trees are very similar, but clearly very different. Why? Because the genetic code in the seed will only allow the lemon tree to reproduce as a lemon tree and not and orange or grapefruit. So where did the information come from for the immense diversity of life on the planet and their incredible ability to reproduce?

 

[osgart]

But not the filaria worm, No way on that.

filaria worm - Google Search:

Thats how crude and haphazard the intelligence is.

 

[ecco]

The Baha'i Faith, and I do not claim everything needs a cause and a beginning. This is an awkward claim among many Christians.

Dare I inquire as to the Bahai belief regarding the origin of God.

 

[ecco]

Has anyone addressed the question of where the information came from?

Has anyone addressed the question of why water molecules all have the same "shape"? That's a much more fundamental question.

 

[exchemist]

Has anyone addressed the question of where the information came from? We now know that all living things have DNA, and in that DNA is a genetic code. That code contains information to build that specific structure. That's why we observe plants, trees, insects, birds, fish, animals and human beings which reproduce after that specific coded information of that specific species. None of them cross over because the genetic code doesn't allow it to. Like a computer program, it doesn't function outside of it's programming. Yes there is room for variation, we see this in dogs for one example. We see a huge variety but they are still dogs, they don't jump or evolve into something else outside of that spicies because the genetic code doesn't allow it to. Citrus trees are very similar, but clearly very different. Why? Because the genetic code in the seed will only allow the lemon tree to reproduce as a lemon tree and not and orange or grapefruit. So where did the information come from for the immense diversity of life on the planet and their incredible ability to reproduce?

It came from the increase in entropy of the substances metabolised by the organism's ancestors, over a span of 3.5 bn years.

 

[exchemist]

Has anyone addressed the question of why water molecules all have the same "shape"? That's a much more fundamental question.

I presume this question is rhetorical.

If not then it is a question for one of us chemists on the forum, I suppose......not sure I want to get into covalent bonding, hybridisation and lone pairs here, though.

 

[sealchan]

Has anyone addressed the question of where the information came from? We now know that all living things have DNA, and in that DNA is a genetic code. That code contains information to build that specific structure. That's why we observe plants, trees, insects, birds, fish, animals and human beings which reproduce after that specific coded information of that specific species. None of them cross over because the genetic code doesn't allow it to. Like a computer program, it doesn't function outside of it's programming. Yes there is room for variation, we see this in dogs for one example. We see a huge variety but they are still dogs, they don't jump or evolve into something else outside of that spicies because the genetic code doesn't allow it to. Citrus trees are very similar, but clearly very different. Why? Because the genetic code in the seed will only allow the lemon tree to reproduce as a lemon tree and not and orange or grapefruit. So where did the information come from for the immense diversity of life on the planet and their incredible ability to reproduce?

Information, as such, is a new area of study in science...this idea, the metaphor that the genetic code contains information, is one born of the recent age of computing technology (IT or information technology) which has now made it obvious that information can be regarding as a state of matter from the perspective of something which can read that state. I'm not sure to what extent information has been defined scientifically or even philosophically.

Perhaps one definition would be that information is a state of matter that some "actor" can "interpret", "retrieve" and possibly "store" such that that state can be used to determine an outcome initiated by that "actor". It seems to me information science is deeply embedded in complex, adaptive systems theory. If so then the questions you are asking are also those of the science of complexity (another newer scientific field).

Evolution along with Information is very much a topic for a science of systems. There is in these sciences the mystery of how "higher levels" of order arise out of less intelligent parts. You may have heard the phrase "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts"...that references this intriguing phenomenon of the emergence of orderly behavior out of parts "too dumb" to reductively explain that order. This is all still something of a mystery but it is quantifiable and therefore can yield to scientific inquiry.

So your questions above are good ones and science does not have the definitive answer to address your questions...but your questions are also based on a metaphor (genetic code is information) and that metaphor will need to be re-expressed as something more definite and testable before we can say whether or not human science is going to be up to the task of addressing those questions.

Science has had a pretty good track record so far...especially if one has patience. Until then we can indulge somewhat in the fantasies of faith, but don't take such fantasies literally...or a disappointment will likely come.

 

[exchemist]

Information, as such, is a new area of study in science...this idea, the metaphor that the genetic code contains information, is one born of the recent age of computing technology (IT or information technology) which has now made it obvious that information can be regarding as a state of matter from the perspective of something which can read that state. I'm not sure to what extent information has been defined scientifically or even philosophically.

Perhaps one definition would be that information is a state of matter that some "actor" can "interpret", "retrieve" and possibly "store" such that that state can be used to determine an outcome initiated by that "actor". It seems to me information science is deeply embedded in complex, adaptive systems theory. If so then the questions you are asking are also those of the science of complexity (another newer scientific field).

Evolution along with Information is very much a topic for a science of systems. There is in these sciences the mystery of how "higher levels" of order arise out of less intelligent parts. You may have heard the phrase "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts"...that references this intriguing phenomenon of the emergence of orderly behavior out of parts "too dumb" to reductively explain that order. This is all still something of a mystery but it is quantifiable and therefore can yield to scientific inquiry.

So your questions above are good ones and science does not have the definitive answer to address your questions...but your questions are also based on a metaphor (genetic code is information) and that metaphor will need to be re-expressed as something more definite and testable before we can say whether or not human science is going to be up to the task of addressing those questions.

Science has had a pretty good track record so far...especially if one has patience. Until then we can indulge somewhat in the fantasies of faith, but don't take such fantasies literally...or a disappointment will likely come.

I think you need to explain what is a "mystery" about how order arises. Ordered systems arise in nature all the time and are not considered to be particularly mysterious. The only proviso is the thermodynamic one that whenever an ordered (lower entropy) system arises, entropy increases elsewhere by more than the entropy reduction due to the order.

 

[Rapture Era]

Information, as such, is a new area of study in science...this idea, the metaphor that the genetic code contains information, is one born of the recent age of computing technology (IT or information technology) which has now made it obvious that information can be regarding as a state of matter from the perspective of something which can read that state. I'm not sure to what extent information has been defined scientifically or even philosophically.

Perhaps one definition would be that information is a state of matter that some "actor" can "interpret", "retrieve" and possibly "store" such that that state can be used to determine an outcome initiated by that "actor". It seems to me information science is deeply embedded in complex, adaptive systems theory. If so then the questions you are asking are also those of the science of complexity (another newer scientific field).

Evolution along with Information is very much a topic for a science of systems. There is in these sciences the mystery of how "higher levels" of order arise out of less intelligent parts. You may have heard the phrase "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts"...that references this intriguing phenomenon of the emergence of orderly behavior out of parts "too dumb" to reductively explain that order. This is all still something of a mystery but it is quantifiable and therefore can yield to scientific inquiry.

So your questions above are good ones and science does not have the definitive answer to address your questions...but your questions are also based on a metaphor (genetic code is information) and that metaphor will need to be re-expressed as something more definite and testable before we can say whether or not human science is going to be up to the task of addressing those questions.

Science has had a pretty good track record so far...especially if one has patience. Until then we can indulge somewhat in the fantasies of faith, but don't take such fantasies literally...or a disappointment will likely come.

Ummm, genetic information is not a metaphor, its a fact. The question is, where did it come from to produce the vast array of numerous life forms? It seems that an intelligence was involved to bring about this incredible and undisputed information. We can clone a sheep. But if you put a sheep in a pen and tell it to clone itself, I'm sure your demand will not be met, ever! It takes a human mind of great intelligence outside of that life form to do such a thing. This thread is entitled "God did it." If the biblical God is outside of our time and space, how would we ever come to know him? Unless, he chose to tell us. If he didn't choose to tell us, we would be left to try and figure it out on our own. Following ever wind of doctrine not knowing irrefutably what the truth is concerning our origins, our purpose or our destiny. Not only did he choose to tell us these things, he said that we can know of his power and creative attributes by the things that are made. Besides the Genesis account (which is how he chose to tell us) He also tells us that "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." So, it's not so hard to consider that an all powerful and immeasurably intelligent being was able to create all life on this planet and place it in a perfect position in our solar system to be able to sustain life as we know it. Is this reasonable?

 

[wandering peacefully]

Doesn't seem reasonable. Why would you take something that has a physical reason for becoming what it has become and add magic to it? Where did the magic originate?

 

[shunyadragon]

Dare I inquire as to the Bahai belief regarding the origin of God.

God and our physical existence is eternal and timeless as is the Quantum World beyond our universe and all possible universes.

Therefore, 'not everything must have a beginning' in the view of the Baha'i Faith.

 

[Rapture Era]

Doesn't seem reasonable. Why would you take something that has a physical reason for becoming what it has become and add magic to it? Where did the magic originate?

Magic? What magic do you speak of?

 

[Bear Wild]

Ummm, genetic information is not a metaphor, its a fact. The question is, where did it come from to produce the vast array of numerous life forms? It seems that an intelligence was involved to bring about this incredible and undisputed information. We can clone a sheep. But if you put a sheep in a pen and tell it to clone itself, I'm sure your demand will not be met, ever! It takes a human mind of great intelligence outside of that life form to do such a thing. This thread is entitled "God did it." If the biblical God is outside of our time and space, how would we ever come to know him? Unless, he chose to tell us. If he didn't choose to tell us, we would be left to try and figure it out on our own. Following ever wind of doctrine not knowing irrefutably what the truth is concerning our origins, our purpose or our destiny. Not only did he choose to tell us these things, he said that we can know of his power and creative attributes by the things that are made. Besides the Genesis account (which is how he chose to tell us) He also tells us that "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." So, it's not so hard to consider that an all powerful and immeasurably intelligent being was able to create all life on this planet and place it in a perfect position in our solar system to be able to sustain life as we know it. Is this reasonable?

It came from the environmental conditions during the early stages of the earth with evidence of the development of complex organic molecules before life was present. Once the genetic code started and reproduced itself then the steps for life development are clear. There is extensive evidence for this to occur and even on other planets we can find the development of more complex organic compounds. Genesis does not account for anything other than the myth to teach those of the Jewish culture. It explains nothing about how life formed correctly because it was never intended to do that. It is symbolic only. Female created from a rib? No explanation of fossil evidence, No explanation for convergent evolutionary patterns. No mention of the genetic code which if god was communicating anything god would have explained this in genesis but it is entirely lacking in genesis. The fact that earth is in the a position to support organic is exactly why life started on earth not because a god or goddess placed the earth in this locations and chose it. You are just trying to make a myth fit reality which is does not. Stop trying and accept the one theory which actually have evidence for it unless you think that all science is fake and unacceptable.

 

[Rapture Era]

It came from the increase in entropy of the substances metabolised by the organism's ancestors, over a span of 3.5 bn years.

Haaahaaa! good one! Yes, entropy, it's lack of order or predictability; gradual decline into disorder is the nail in the coffin for those who like to think things progress upward and keep getting better!

 

[Rapture Era]

It came from the environmental conditions during the early stages of the earth with evidence of the development of complex organic molecules before life was present. Once the genetic code started and reproduced itself then the steps for life development are clear. There is extensive evidence for this to occur and even on other planets we can find the development of more complex organic compounds. Genesis does not account for anything other than the myth to teach those of the Jewish culture. It explains nothing about how life formed correctly because it was never intended to do that. It is symbolic only. Female created from a rib? No explanation of fossil evidence, No explanation for convergent evolutionary patterns. No mention of the genetic code which if god was communicating anything god would have explained this in genesis but it is entirely lacking in genesis. The fact that earth is in the a position to support organic is exactly why life started on earth not because a god or goddess placed the earth in this locations and chose it. You are just trying to make a myth fit reality which is does not. Stop trying and accept the one theory which actually have evidence for it unless you think that all science is fake and unacceptable.

WOW! What were the environmental conditions during the early stages of earth? Your statement is full of speculation! What is your comprehensive alternative to supernatural creation?

 

[Bear Wild]

WOW! What were the environmental conditions during the early stages of earth? Your statement is full of speculation! What is your comprehensive alternative to supernatural creation?

No it is not. There is extensive evidence for the conditions that could increase organic complexity as well as studies from other planets. Yes the research is complex to read because you need and extensive understanding of organic chemistry but there are summaries of this information available. It is more than speculation and better than creating an imaginary supernatural being without evidence derived by the minds of men. No coincidence that man resembles god since man created god.

 

[shunyadragon]

WOW! What were the environmental conditions during the early stages of earth? Your statement is full of speculation! What is your comprehensive alternative to supernatural creation?

Not so much speculation as you may think. More contemporary research has demonstrated that the environment at ocean ridge spreading zones of continental drift was the same as it is today and this environment is one of the most likely environments for the earliest life forms and early evolution. The current earliest simple microbe fossils are found rocks from these formations. Another potential environment for the formation of life and early evolution is the host springs, which are similar to the environment of hot springs today.

 

[Rapture Era]

No it is not. There is extensive evidence for the conditions that could increase organic complexity as well as studies from other planets. Yes the research is complex to read because you need and extensive understanding of organic chemistry but there are summaries of this information available. It is more than speculation and better than creating an imaginary supernatural being without evidence derived by the minds of men. No coincidence that man resembles god since man created god.

What is the evidence of the early earth environment? No one was there so its just speculation. Miller-Urey tried it in the early 50's. Then 10 years later they really thought they had the atmosphere right and their experiment was a flop. What studies from other planets have convincingly told us what our atmosphere was like? The only one that was here at that time was the creator himself and you have information to discredit him? And I just got done telling you that the evidence of Gods creation is all around you, but you do not want to believe this overwhelming evidence. You only have two choices, either you believe that an all powerful and immensely intelligent being, namely the biblical God created exactly the way he said he did or you don't! I guess you don't, so, good luck with speculation, hypothesizes and theories!