the CRIME of the western world

[Merlin]

i can smell the scent of the pretending to be the "Most Gracious,Most merciful",well let me ask you one question: why did your ancestors STEAL many of the resources of that region and other regions,before they were completely destroyed by their good old folks?

Good try. You are trying to divert attention from the simple question; "why do the oil rich Moslem nations not move to help the Moslem brothers and sisters who are dying in Pakistan and Kashmir?"

do not quote history, answer the question about the situation now.

 

[Mujahid]

There are a couple of the smaller nations, like Kuwait that have done immensely useful things with their wealth. Kuwait for example have pumped billions into industrial investments in the West, so they will be very wealthy for ever.

Nobody else has done anything to speak of. But my main beef with them is where is their money now for the tsunami victims, and the recent terrible earthquake victims. They are Moslem people who need the money, but these rich Moslem countries are waiting for the Western Christian societies to solve the problem. isn't it funny that none of the Moslems in the world are complaining about Saudi Arabia and Iran doing nothing.

oh man,you gotta be kiddin me,do you think they are REAL moslems???????i don't think so

 

[Mujahid]

Yes good point.... And where were any of the muslim countries when the west or America was stopping the ethnic cleansing of muslims in eastern europe?

stopping? you gotta be kiddin me too,who BANNED arming moslems in eastern europe?

 

[Merlin]

oh man,you gotta be kiddin me,do you think they are REAL moslems???????i don't think so

Stay calm. No point getting hysterical.

 

[Mujahid]

Okay, I think I see what you're saying, Mujahid. You're saying that it's not fair that some people are unlucky and live in barren lands where resources are scarce, thus the compassionate thing to do is for the people who live in resource-rich areas to aid the less fortunate. I agree with you. I think I was confused at your use of the word "justice" here; I would call aiding the less fortunate an act of compassion, not an act of justice.

I would have to agree that it would be a crime for those who are well-off not to help those who can't help themselves (like victims of earthquakes, famines, or other natural disasters).

no Mr Spinkles,it's not being lucky or unlucky,it's only God who lifted us upon each other to test us,that is God gives strength to someone to see what will he use it for,gives elegance to another to see what will he use it for,gives comeliness to another to see what will he use it for,there are so many examples on that including many permutations and combinations and this occurs in everyday life and also between nations

 

[Mujahid]

Even while they try to kill you? That isn't compassion. That is lunacy. It's really dangerous. Look, more suffering exists on this earth because of compassion than because of hatred. Look what America did to India when they were going through a famine and so many people were starving. We went in, gave them all this food, installed US corporations; what happened? They started having more and more kids, so many kids that now India rivals China's population and now they don't have enough food, so the next famine that hits is going to kill twenty times the number of people.

We helped the Afgans fight the Russians and then we had to fight the Afghans. We helped the Iraqis fight the Iranians and now we have to fight the Iraqis. Now we are helping the Iraqis again. This just doesn't make any sense. These countries aren't poor because they are trying really hard and they just have bad luck. They are poor as a result of their actions. We keep going over there with our compassion and aid and we are just creating more of a problem, because we are helping to create an artificial order and an artificial stability. It isn't real. They haven't changed. All the problems that the Middle East had fifty years ago, they have today. They would have been forced to change and evolve had we not helped them survive so long. And the oil... if there wasn't any oil there, they would have had to evolve or become extinct. That is how progress is made. Compassion and aid just make things worse when people are willing to change.

Never help people that hate you. Never help people that aren't willing to help themselves. The people that deserve compassion are the people who are trying as hard as they can, but still just aren't getting anywhere. That isn't the case in Africa. That isn't the case in the Middle East. Now, if you want to talk about some places that need compassion and aid, let's talk about India, Pakistan, Romania, Mexico and Columbia. These countries seem to be trying as hard as they can to progress and they just haven't had any luck at all.

no reply

 

[Mujahid]

For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.
Luke 12:48

The distribution of natural resources is not an injustice or a crime. It just *is*. Some of us were fortunate to be born in areas where the natural resources were plentiful. I suppose if you want to say those in the U.S. "stole" it from the Native Americans, you can but I didn't (nor did my ancestors who came here in the late 1800's) and neither did anyone else born in the last 100 or so years so let's just deal with the present.

We are blessed with an abundance and I believe the bible teaches us to give with loving hearts. When I see children who look like walking corpses, I don't give a rats patoot whether they're that way because their (a) government is rotten to the core, (b) they have too much population for their particular environment or (c) whether they hate us. I believe it is still the responsibility of those who have to help those in need. Fix the most immediate concern....and then address the deeper need.

I just read an article about a gentleman who, for the past 30 years (?), has been building inexpensive irrigating equipment to help those in drought areas get the maximum from the water they do have so they can continue to grow crops and feed themselves. That's one man. I've always wondered what we could accomplish as a world society if we could get past religion, race, and nationality.

no reply

 

[Mujahid]

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day; teach a man to fish, feed him for life.

It's fine and dandy to talk about the immediate concern; but the real *problem* is the underlying issues. You can see a person bleeding and put a baindaid on it; but have you really helped the severed artery.

Worse, because of your ignorance to the underlying cause; your help may be no help at all. Much of the food sent into the third-world never makes it to the recipiants; either sitting and rotting in warehouses, or taken for use by the same people who drove that starving kd away from his family farm in teh first place. You may, in fact, make things worse rather than better.

But let's say that you do save teh starving kid. If all you've done is hand over food, in 15 years, that starving kid will be happy to produce a dozen more starving kids for you. You've invited suffering in more people because you've superficially helped a few... not to mention scenerios like the Katrina refugees getting mugeged and/or killed for their FEMA cards.

The point is that you can't just make a knee-jerk reaction and assume "some help is better than none". In Ruwanda, for example, we would do a lot more good to send in an army to enact peace than try to get food into a war-zone.

no reply

 

[Mujahid]

I agree....throwing food at the situation and doing nothing more is not the solution. I don't believe I was suggesting that at all. However, just throwing up our hands and saying it's hopeless, and doing nothing, is not a solution either. While I'm supporting organizations who are doing something about the long-term problem, I'm also willing to supply the band-aid.

“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
--Matthew 25:37

no reply

 

[Mujahid]

It is a disgrace indeed. And I think you can look at the fact that the vast number of
people in that region ascribe to a religion which dictates their religious, political and
legal life, and which has the 7th Century Arabian Peninsula as its ideal as the problem.
Much of thatregion of the world has not been brought into the 20th Century, and that
is a shame.

I have no doubt that many people who could have added to the richness and beauty of
the world have been denied the ability to express themselves, and we, in turn, have
been denied their contributions due to a repressive backward system of laws/religion.

The cure for cancer could very well have been locked up in the mind of an Iranian
female who never got the chance to go to school. The vaccination for AIDS might be
out there waiting to be discovered by some poor kid in Iraq, who now, at least has
some chance of an education, thanks to . . .

Just some things to ponder.

B.

no reply

 

[Mujahid]

Who's rights have we stolen? The only people whose rights we are in control of is our own country's.

no reply

 

[Mujahid]

now guys,it seems you act like the "Most Gracious,Most merciful",please,please say the truth and do the right conduts,please read surat:"Al buruj",sura no.85 and you'll find that the consequences of what you're doing will be VIGOROUS and the nearest examples on that were what happened to the european states in the 1st and 2nd world wars,they were before "friends" and after "anacondas EATING eachother"

END OF THIS THREAD

 

[The Black Whirlwind]

yeah man, you're not really making any sense at all. because we happen upon a nice land, we have to give our resources to you because of some twisted sense of "justice"?

 

[Aqualung]

Why do you keep not replying when people present you with actual evidence or try to get you to provide them with actual evidence? Is that the way to debate properly? No. It does absolutely nothing for anyone. You started this debate (or at least resurected it) so the least you could do is actually debate. I'm getting really tired of people who insist on posting in debate threads when they have absolutely no intention of debating people.

 

[The Black Whirlwind]

yeah, this isn't really a debate, just a disgruntled man whining about how we "steal" everyone elses rights, and then there are people who present him with evidence, but he is too proud to admit he is wrong. at least, thats how i think its going.

 

[Darkdale]

now guys,it seems you act like the "Most Gracious,Most merciful",please,please say the truth and do the right conduts,please read surat:"Al buruj",sura no.85 and you'll find that the consequences of what you're doing will be VIGOROUS and the nearest examples on that were what happened to the european states in the 1st and 2nd world wars,they were before "friends" and after "anacondas EATING eachother"

END OF THIS THREAD

I think our warriors will reread your take on things. You will lose...not because of gods, because of a lack of Force. Power. Liberty. Beauty. Love will win over empty virtue.

 

[Melody]

no Mr Spinkles,it's not being lucky or unlucky,it's only God who lifted us upon each other to test us,that is God gives strength to someone to see what will he use it for,gives elegance to another to see what will he use it for,gives comeliness to another to see what will he use it for,there are so many examples on that including many permutations and combinations and this occurs in everyday life and also between nations

I think I have to agree. Which goes right back to the verse in Luke that says much is expected of those who have much.

 

[Merlin]

Why do you keep not replying when people present you with actual evidence or try to get you to provide them with actual evidence? Is that the way to debate properly? No. It does absolutely nothing for anyone. You started this debate (or at least resurected it) so the least you could do is actually debate. I'm getting really tired of people who insist on posting in debate threads when they have absolutely no intention of debating people.

Maybe that is the way to deal with this rather tiresome repetitive thread.

No reply.

 

[Darkdale]

no reply

Totally expected.

 

[ChrisP]

END OF THIS THREAD

uhhh........ omigosh.