the CRIME of the western world

[Radar]

There are a couple of the smaller nations, like Kuwait that have done immensely useful things with their wealth. Kuwait for example have pumped billions into industrial investments in the West, so they will be very wealthy for ever.

Nobody else has done anything to speak of. But my main beef with them is where is their money now for the tsunami victims, and the recent terrible earthquake victims. They are Moslem people who need the money, but these rich Moslem countries are waiting for the Western Christian societies to solve the problem. isn't it funny that none of the Moslems in the world are complaining about Saudi Arabia and Iran doing nothing.

Yes good point.... And where were any of the muslim countries when the west or America was stopping the ethnic cleansing of muslims in eastern europe?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Okay, I think I see what you're saying, Mujahid. You're saying that it's not fair that some people are unlucky and live in barren lands where resources are scarce, thus the compassionate thing to do is for the people who live in resource-rich areas to aid the less fortunate. I agree with you. I think I was confused at your use of the word "justice" here; I would call aiding the less fortunate an act of compassion, not an act of justice.

I would have to agree that it would be a crime for those who are well-off not to help those who can't help themselves (like victims of earthquakes, famines, or other natural disasters).

 

[Darkdale]

I would have to agree that it would be a crime for those who are well-off not to help those who can't help themselves (like victims of earthquakes, famines, or other natural disasters).

Even while they try to kill you? That isn't compassion. That is lunacy. It's really dangerous. Look, more suffering exists on this earth because of compassion than because of hatred. Look what America did to India when they were going through a famine and so many people were starving. We went in, gave them all this food, installed US corporations; what happened? They started having more and more kids, so many kids that now India rivals China's population and now they don't have enough food, so the next famine that hits is going to kill twenty times the number of people.

We helped the Afgans fight the Russians and then we had to fight the Afghans. We helped the Iraqis fight the Iranians and now we have to fight the Iraqis. Now we are helping the Iraqis again. This just doesn't make any sense. These countries aren't poor because they are trying really hard and they just have bad luck. They are poor as a result of their actions. We keep going over there with our compassion and aid and we are just creating more of a problem, because we are helping to create an artificial order and an artificial stability. It isn't real. They haven't changed. All the problems that the Middle East had fifty years ago, they have today. They would have been forced to change and evolve had we not helped them survive so long. And the oil... if there wasn't any oil there, they would have had to evolve or become extinct. That is how progress is made. Compassion and aid just make things worse when people are willing to change.

Never help people that hate you. Never help people that aren't willing to help themselves. The people that deserve compassion are the people who are trying as hard as they can, but still just aren't getting anywhere. That isn't the case in Africa. That isn't the case in the Middle East. Now, if you want to talk about some places that need compassion and aid, let's talk about India, Pakistan, Romania, Mexico and Columbia. These countries seem to be trying as hard as they can to progress and they just haven't had any luck at all.

 

[Melody]

For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.
Luke 12:48

The distribution of natural resources is not an injustice or a crime. It just *is*. Some of us were fortunate to be born in areas where the natural resources were plentiful. I suppose if you want to say those in the U.S. "stole" it from the Native Americans, you can but I didn't (nor did my ancestors who came here in the late 1800's) and neither did anyone else born in the last 100 or so years so let's just deal with the present.

We are blessed with an abundance and I believe the bible teaches us to give with loving hearts. When I see children who look like walking corpses, I don't give a rats patoot whether they're that way because their (a) government is rotten to the core, (b) they have too much population for their particular environment or (c) whether they hate us. I believe it is still the responsibility of those who have to help those in need. Fix the most immediate concern....and then address the deeper need.

I just read an article about a gentleman who, for the past 30 years (?), has been building inexpensive irrigating equipment to help those in drought areas get the maximum from the water they do have so they can continue to grow crops and feed themselves. That's one man. I've always wondered what we could accomplish as a world society if we could get past religion, race, and nationality.

 

[JerryL]

We are blessed with an abundance and I believe the bible teaches us to give with loving hearts. When I see children who look like walking corpses, I don't give a rats patoot whether they're that way because their (a) government is rotten to the core, (b) they have too much population for their particular environment or (c) whether they hate us. I believe it is still the responsibility of those who have to help those in need. Fix the most immediate concern....and then address the deeper need.

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day; teach a man to fish, feed him for life.

It's fine and dandy to talk about the immediate concern; but the real *problem* is the underlying issues. You can see a person bleeding and put a baindaid on it; but have you really helped the severed artery.

Worse, because of your ignorance to the underlying cause; your help may be no help at all. Much of the food sent into the third-world never makes it to the recipiants; either sitting and rotting in warehouses, or taken for use by the same people who drove that starving kd away from his family farm in teh first place. You may, in fact, make things worse rather than better.

But let's say that you do save teh starving kid. If all you've done is hand over food, in 15 years, that starving kid will be happy to produce a dozen more starving kids for you. You've invited suffering in more people because you've superficially helped a few... not to mention scenerios like the Katrina refugees getting mugeged and/or killed for their FEMA cards.

The point is that you can't just make a knee-jerk reaction and assume "some help is better than none". In Ruwanda, for example, we would do a lot more good to send in an army to enact peace than try to get food into a war-zone.

 

[Melody]

It's fine and dandy to talk about the immediate concern; but the real *problem* is the underlying issues. You can see a person bleeding and put a baindaid on it; but have you really helped the severed artery.
<snip>
But let's say that you do save teh starving kid. If all you've done is hand over food, in 15 years, that starving kid will be happy to produce a dozen more starving kids for you.

I agree....throwing food at the situation and doing nothing more is not the solution. I don't believe I was suggesting that at all. However, just throwing up our hands and saying it's hopeless, and doing nothing, is not a solution either. While I'm supporting organizations who are doing something about the long-term problem, I'm also willing to supply the band-aid.

“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
--Matthew 25:37

 

[Aqualung]

We are blessed with an abundance and I believe the bible teaches us to give with loving hearts. When I see children who look like walking corpses, I don't give a rats patoot whether they're that way because their (a) government is rotten to the core, (b) they have too much population for their particular environment or (c) whether they hate us. I believe it is still the responsibility of those who have to help those in need. Fix the most immediate concern....and then address the deeper need.

I agree that it would definitely be compassionate for us to help others. But just? No. I also agree that would be uncompassionate for us to not help. But unjust? No.

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day; teach a man to fish, feed him for life.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

 

[ChrisP]

I agree that it would definitely be compassionate for us to help others. But just? No. I also agree that would be uncompassionate for us to not help. But unjust? No.
Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

I think Darkie is trying to take the longterm view. If a nation cannot sustain itself, then aiding the nation while it grows is only going to make the problem of insustainability greater in the future. Famines are a tragedy but they have happened, do happen and will happen in the future.

Creating a world where humanity is sustainable is a greater priority than increasing our numbers.

 

[Aqualung]

I think Darkie is trying to take the longterm view. If a nation cannot sustain itself, then aiding the nation while it grows is only going to make the problem of insustainability greater in the future. Famines are a tragedy but they have happened, do happen and will happen in the future.

Creating a world where humanity is sustainable is a greater priority than increasing our numbers.

I have no beef with what darkdale is saying. Why did you think I did? I was supplementing him, not contradicting him.

 

[ChrisP]

I have no beef with what darkdale is saying. Why did you think I did? I was supplementing him, not contradicting him.

Mostly due to the fact that I'm an idiot

That and I never read a whole post.

Also I was trying to infer that it IS compassionate to not lend aid in that situation. This planet can only hold so many people and we need to bear that in mind.

Otherwise it's like getting into an Elevator with a nasty old man with bowel problems

 

[Mujahid]

No worries. I just couldn't find any of your posts in this thread that had been editted, so I was simply checking to see if there was anything I could do. Also, if the meaning of my post came across as harsh in the other thread, I apologize. Anyone who can behave nicely is always welcome in my home.

you're most welcome too,thankyou so much,if you are not married here you are: I LOVE YOUUUUUU,if you are,here you are::bonk:

 

[Aqualung]

Mostly due to the fact that I'm an idiot

Yeah you are! :biglaugh: No, I'm just joking. That's okay, though. I was just confused.

 

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

I agree. The oil-rich Moslem nations of the Middle East could easily come to the rescue of these poor souls who have been left destitute by the latest earthquake in Pakistan/Kashmir. . . .

. In fact, I think the vast number of billions that have been paid to the oil-rich nations of the Middle East have done no good to anybody. That is the biggest disgrace of recent history. That part of the world should by now be a thriving, educated, modern society. It is still basically a land of ill educated peasants. Disgraceful.

It is a disgrace indeed. And I think you can look at the fact that the vast number of
people in that region ascribe to a religion which dictates their religious, political and
legal life, and which has the 7th Century Arabian Peninsula as its ideal as the problem.
Much of thatregion of the world has not been brought into the 20th Century, and that
is a shame.

I have no doubt that many people who could have added to the richness and beauty of
the world have been denied the ability to express themselves, and we, in turn, have
been denied their contributions due to a repressive backward system of laws/religion.

The cure for cancer could very well have been locked up in the mind of an Iranian
female who never got the chance to go to school. The vaccination for AIDS might be
out there waiting to be discovered by some poor kid in Iraq, who now, at least has
some chance of an education, thanks to . . .

Just some things to ponder.

B.

 

[Mujahid]

So you admit you were wrong and now wish to back-track. OK. Let's start discussing Death Valley and the southwest.

Sub-sahara Africa is full of honey and cream while Alaska is ice and Utah is desert. Again, you move your line.

Huh? Why don't you address the comparison?

That's non-responsive. How is "the west" taking the rights of India or China? Give specific examples.

You mean that reasources aren't evenly distributed? That would be the unjust nature of the forces that formed the Earth.

In your beliefs, that would be God being unjust. I'd suggest you take it up with him.

Personally, I don't see how luck can be just or unjust... and considering that you'll be hard pressed to find areas much more devoid of natural reasources than Nevada; I fail to see any validity to your whining.

it seems also you're trying to capture mistakes on me and it wasn't "Sheer" luck as some of you might say,but it was the grace of God to you and his test,but many of you FAILED,because you didn't give people back their rights exactly like the english did before and they were completely DESTROYED

 

[Aqualung]

Who's rights have we stolen? The only people whose rights we are in control of is our own country's.

 

[Mujahid]

I agree completely. If any other nation in the world had the military might and money of the United States, they would immediately attack to create world domination for themselves. I think many people do not realise that if the United States were not a wonderful benevolent Society, they could easily oppress and dominate the world for the next 500 years.

I am English. But I regularly say; "God bless America". We are very lucky to be born in this age.

Imagine what the position would be if Hitler had been this powerful, or Stalin, or (heaven forbid) Osama bin Ladin.

if they were really a "benevolent" society,why the hell had they done what they done to japan?killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people in just one second and then pretending that they are "The most Gracious,the most Merciful",NO many of them were CRIMINALS and THEIVES,no offense to respectful Americans and i hope this reply wont be edited

 

[Merlin]

if they were really a "benevolent" society,why the hell had they done what they done to japan?killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people in just one second and then pretending that they are "The most Gracious,the most Merciful",NO many of them were CRIMINALS and THEIVES,no offense to respectful Americans and i hope this reply wont be edited

You quote something 60 years ago

It was bringing to an end a terrible war

Nobody knew the effects of atomic bombs

The facts are quite clear. The USA at the moment could wipe out all resistance anywhere in the world if they chose to. Do you think nations like Iran would hesitate to even one moment if they could do that?

God bless America

 

[Merlin]

It is a disgrace indeed. And I think you can look at the fact that the vast number of
people in that region ascribe to a religion which dictates their religious, political and
legal life, and which has the 7th Century Arabian Peninsula as its ideal as the problem.
Much of thatregion of the world has not been brought into the 20th Century, and that
is a shame.

I have no doubt that many people who could have added to the richness and beauty of
the world have been denied the ability to express themselves, and we, in turn, have
been denied their contributions due to a repressive backward system of laws/religion.

The cure for cancer could very well have been locked up in the mind of an Iranian
female who never got the chance to go to school. The vaccination for AIDS might be
out there waiting to be discovered by some poor kid in Iraq, who now, at least has
some chance of an education, thanks to . . .

Just some things to ponder.

B.

It is not the religion, it is the interpretation of the religion. It wasn't that long ago that many Christians did not agree with educating girls. The Christian religion was just as repressive or females until recent times. Even now, there are lots of restrictions on what females can do within the Christian faith.

 

[Merlin]

Yes good point.... And where were any of the muslim countries when the west or America was stopping the ethnic cleansing of muslims in eastern europe?

And why do they never mention it now?

 

[Mujahid]

I agree. The oil-rich Moslem nations of the Middle East could easily come to the rescue of these poor souls who have been left destitute by the latest earthquake in Pakistan/Kashmir. But we are going round with a begging bowl to the poor people in Bradford in England to send a few thousand bucks. Why don't the oil-rich nations send a few billion, and solve it at a stroke?

It isn't just the West. It is human nature. In fact, I think the vast number of billions that have been paid to the oil-rich nations of the Middle East have done no good to anybody. That is the biggest disgrace of recent history. That part of the world should by now be a thriving, educated, modern society. It is still basically a land of ill educated peasants. Disgraceful.

i can smell the scent of the pretending to be the "Most Gracious,Most merciful",well let me ask you one question: why did your ancestors STEAL many of the resources of that region and other regions,before they were completely destroyed by their good old folks?