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The curse of "converts"

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I am a good converser I such settings, but not so much during a large puja in a temple.

My temple is one of very few that enforces the silence during puja rule, so it's always outside of that when I might begin a conversation. At the shoe room, outside in summer when I'm landscaping, at the foyer, etc. Many newbies are so easy to recognise. They're looking around more, trying to figure the local protocol out. It's odd, the front door is open but you don't turn the handle, just pull it open. So newbies will often see me and ask how to get into the place.

But at other temples I have been to, not many people converse much, unless I'm making arrangements for archana, sponsoring an abhishekham or the like. Priests will converse sometimes. More commonly than the local devotees. They can often tell my sampradaya as well, just by known patterns of behaviour.
 

DeviChaaya

Jai Ambe Gauri
Premium Member
Vannakkam,

Also here is a kitten to make this stupid rambling more cute:
KittenRescue_KittenCareHandbook.jpg


Aum Namah Shivaya

I'll be honest; I haven't read the whole post yet, I just wanted to squeal over the kitten. Kittens (and cats) make everything better.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
This should be a sticky. It's difficult for people like me grown up in Hinduism to understand what's going on for a newcomer. It often looks to me that newcomers are over active and over zealous, something like this
images


Your advice and insight is greatly appreciated. :)
Yeah I agree. We just consider it part of life, don't really think about it.
"Converts" I find to be kind of adorable. They're like that sweet geeky teen trying to be friends. Endearingly awkward and eager to learn.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
My temple is one of very few that enforces the silence during puja rule, .. They can often tell my sampradaya as well, just by known patterns of behaviour.
That is a good rule. But then. I can wthdraw myself in like the tortoise in Gita .. Priests who are not observant earn less. :D
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
My temple is one of very few that enforces the silence during puja rule

I wish mine could. Because there can be several pujas going on at once, and there are so many shrines, I'm not sure how they'd define a zone of silence. However, at a particular puja the devotees are quiet and reverential.

There is only one thing that irks me... I know it shouldn't, and I should be used to it by now... you've been standing in front of a sanctum, usually Sri Venkateshwara waiting for the priests to open the curtain for darshan and aarti because you know when it happens.

You hear the drum and bell (they can hear it in Argentina :D). It's up near the ceiling electronically controlled by a switch in the sanctum, pretty neat to see it working. It signals the opening of the curtain, darshan and aarti.

People literally run from another part of the temple, and edge you out to get a "better darshan", and be first to receive the light and padukas (on a bell shaped item the priest puts over your head).

When that happens I just inch backwards, though it's still no less irksome even knowing it happens. A couple of times the priests have looked annoyed, not at me but for me. One even stretched out his arm to halt people from crowding me out, and motioned to me to come forward. I'm learning to tell my self "God knows I'm here, and I'll see him when everyone runs off".

My point, besides telling one of my convoluted stories is that I think a new convert or visitor might be put off by being crowded out, especially when they can't see or follow what's happening. Not much to do about it except understand it happens. :shrug:
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I wish mine could. Because there can be several pujas going on at once, and there are so many shrines, I'm not sure how they'd define a zone of silence. However, at a particular puja the devotees are quiet and reverential.

There is only one thing that irks me... I know it shouldn't, and I should be used to it by now... you've been standing in front of a sanctum, usually Sri Venkateshwara waiting for the priests to open the curtain for darshan and aarti because you know when it happens.

You hear the drum and bell (they can hear it in Argentina :D). It's up near the ceiling electronically controlled by a switch in the sanctum, pretty neat to see it working. It signals the opening of the curtain, darshan and aarti.

People literally run from another part of the temple, and edge you out to get a "better darshan", and be first to receive the light and padukas (on a bell shaped item the priest puts over your head).

When that happens I just inch backwards, though it's still no less irksome even knowing it happens. A couple of times the priests have looked annoyed, not at me but for me. One even stretched out his arm to halt people from crowding me out, and motioned to me to come forward. I'm learning to tell my self "God knows I'm here, and I'll see him when everyone runs off".

My point, besides telling one of my convoluted stories is that I think a new convert or visitor might be put off by being crowded out, especially when they can't see or follow what's happening. Not much to do about it except understand it happens. :shrug:

I've never understood that either, other than it's a carryover from some ridiculously crowded temples in India. Here we try to form 2 lines so the priests can go out away from sanctum, and back towards on the other. We've also got a few barriers in place. In India there are metal barriers all over.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
I've never understood that either, other than it's a carryover from some ridiculously crowded temples in India. Here we try to form 2 lines so the priests can go out away from sanctum, and back towards on the other. We've also got a few barriers in place. In India there are metal barriers all over.

Yep, sounds like ours. We have two theater type cordons (I guess that's the word) running from the sanctum steps forward. Probably same as yours. The priests do same as yours. But it doesn't stop people from pushing and stretching those inwards.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
They are heralding the beginning of audience with the deity. No one should miss it.

The bell and drum isn't the issue. I've been elsewhere, heard the bell and drum, and made my way over, but if people are already there I don't cut in front of them and edge them out.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
The bell and drum isn't the issue. I've been elsewhere, heard the bell and drum, and made my way over, but if people are already there I don't cut in front of them and edge them out.


For me the issue is when small children are there and the 'adult' pushes them out of the way.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
:eek:

I haven't seen that (yet).

Good. There is a difference in what's acceptable in terms of rude/polite in the two cultures for sure. Our priest can come across as rude sometimes when he bosses people around to tun errands and stuff, but in reality he's just so busy, needs help, and doesn't have the time for cordiality. Those not familiar can be taken aback. Generally everyone does eventually get used to local protocol, and those who can't have other more liberal temples they can go to.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes, and keep in mind that many other languages are terse and to the point, not "flowery" and wordy like English. We say "I'd like coffee", Spanish is "quiero café"... I want coffee. Sounds rude to an English speaker. We use too many words, very tiring. :D
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
The coming of the deity like the coming of an emperor to the audience hall cannot be without fanfare, drama, drums, cymbals, shehnai, nādaswarams, mrudangams, ghatams and the final sounding of the conch-shell (Shankha-nāda).
 
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Fireside_Hindu

Jai Lakshmi Maa
Great Discussion!

I find that I'm learning to "chill" more often. I still worry about "being tested" - as in someone questioning me about what I know about how to be a "good Hindu" and not knowing all (or any!) of the answers. But time and time again, people are mostly just curious and kind.

I think the biggest thing for me is I'm still caught in what I call "Perpetual Guest Syndrome", which is where no matter how long you are a member of a community, you are treated special from other devotees and are often not held to the same community standards for behavior at temple. (Not that I'm a bad egg, just that if I make mistakes I'd like to know about it so I can fix it). Being stuck here is nice for a really long time because it always feels great to be welcomed warmly, but eventually, as the cliche goes, I just want to be like all the other kids in school ;)

I'll be taking a training workshop in a few weeks offered by HAF. They are teaching people to be "Dharma Ambassadors" or representatives from the community that can go to schools and colleges and speak about Hinduism. The training preps learners with information of various tricky topics in Hinduism, so at the very least, I'm hoping to get more acquainted with my own beliefs =)
 

Shantanu

Well-Known Member
Vannakkam,

Well first of all, would like to say that use the word "convert", even if don't like it. To me, it means more "Hindus that practiced/explored another religion before".

Often newcomers have a very difficult start in their path to become Hindu. Those difficulties are very diverse and often necessary, in a way: mostly those you can see starting to attend regularly at the temple or engaging in activities kinda passed the "curiosity test". I've seen a lot going to the temple, only to briefly stay and never come back. Or others starting to sincerely explore the scriptures, or any other aspect, only to drop it after some time or make it his own flavor of syncretism.

And to that, will say: it's totally okay. No sweat.

Others will become then... What will conveniently call "convert hindus" (gawd, hate this word so much).

They are firmly established in worship, community, in a sampraday or not. And yet... Often, see many restless.
For us who came from the west, it is our curse: this endless spiral of questions and doubts even though we are firmly established in practice and thinking, even though we are ""Hindu"".

What is this curse ? Our everyday since our birth, suppose. It happened to me too, for a good while, and Gods how awful it was. To illustrate the point, let's take a look at this good old learning curve :

721LearningCurve.png


The first part is when we start the path. We learn A LOT, very quickly, glomping books and websites and speeches and everything that can help us learn the practices, thinking, customs, etc... It's the first approach, and this is what is thrilling for those who persevere in the Hindu way: a whole different world of knowledge and new stuff opens, and we are eager to learn, learn learn more and try things.
The danger of this part: to get lost. Too much scriptures, too much confusion, too much different and sometimes contradictory ideas... For a Hindu it is completely normal, for someone that has not yet established his/her mind in the religion, it's inacceptable to have contradictory principles in the same practice. One of them HAS to be the right, true, virtuous one among all the others right ? Right ?

The second part is when you are settled in practice. You have a steady sadhana, learning from a sampraday or going on without denomination, you go to the temple or get involved with community stuff... You have some knowledge, feel accepted, knows how to practice. All is good as long as you keep on your way, to be honest. And yet, some feel like something is wrong:
There is the danger of this part: the learning curve drastically slows down at this moment, you don't learn new things or master new stuff as quickly as before. You start to worry. Maybe to even feel boredom. There is a risk to drop out, or to go back to your previous religion and distance yourself from being Hindu.
But there is also the curse: We grew up in a whole society that was built on a certain way to think or to do things. Even if we are firmly established in practice and thinking, even if we are following advice or regular in our sadhana, we STILL have occurences of this "mindset" we grew up with. Many say that they feel like "Bad Hindus", "not good enough", that they are "doing wrong things" and sometimes will feel terrible remorse because they feel incredibly guilty for not being "good Hindus" for whatever reason.
've seen people driven to self doubt, anger, even depression because they were late for their sadhana, because there was chicken in their lunch salad, because they don't go everyday to the temple, because they don't bow enough to whatever guru they are following...

And to all those, wish just to say those very simple and wise words :

Seriously just chill the **** out.
Really.
Just... Just chill.
This is, to my eyes, pure leftovers of abrahamic mindset. It's either black or white. It's either right or wrong. It's either virtue or sin. There is nothing in between.
Don't forget it is, for a great part, a religion of thinking. A great guru will never give you orders about what to do/what not to do, you are not supposed to take every scripture literally as words of law, you are NOT supposed to FEAR punishment from your Ishta, you are not supposed to FEAR for your soul.

This is the best way to be paralysed both in thinking and in practice.

Explore, think, experiment, reflect. You have everything to loose in not trying anything. It's a vast umbrella of a lot of faiths and practices and cultures, all in one religion, and it's all supposed to make you happy and to give you the means, both spiritually and physically, to elevate yourself in a variety of manners. Some Hindus are vegetarians, others are not. Some Hindus go to the temple everyday, others are not. Some Hindus worship Ganesha, others aren't. Some Hindus do puja at home everyday, some don't. There is no right way, no wrong way, there is the WAY. It's here. You are on it. Why are you complicating things so much ? Stop, take a breath, look around you: not a single thing look the same. You are making yourself depressed and sad, not because you are a "bad Hindu" but because you are still driven to these leftovers in your mind, this is our curse and you can go through it, just stop and THINK. REFLECT.

We are all going to the same place. We have all the time in the universe to achieve it. Knowing that, you should feel peace and go on a steady pace, not drowning in self doubt and rushing to "salvation" or "100% pure sattvik living for the good of mah soul" or even "I have to completely destroy and remove my ego to be a good hindu" because you are most likely to just destroy yourself in the process. And that's not the goal of it all.

It's really sad and sick to me to see those fellow brothers and sisters like this. Seen many have no problem parroting whatever book or guru taught them: "the soul is undying, unborn" then why do you fear for it ? "God is everything: all attributes yet none at the same time" then why do you feel the need to roll on the floor and cry because you ate a piece of chicken in your salad ? "Ishta/guru is merciful and gives shelter to everyone who seek his blessings" then why do you apologise for everything that you are or everything that you do when you sincerely try ?

This universe is a goddamn ocean of every shade that are impossible to even imagine. It's all of these, yet absolutely nothing, at the same time. It's huge, immense, impossible to fully understand, without beginning and without end. It encompasses all the outcomes and the possibilities, the black and white/sin and virtue/good and bad mindset you're drowning into are just tiny crumbs of dust pieces in this vastness. You're choking on those tiny crumbs of dust, you, who have the potential to realize fully that you are a part of this whole immensity, you who have a chance to be a part of it, whatever your/your sampraday's aim is.

You can force yourself to go on like that, but you will never be able to reach the third part of the curve with this mindset. Even if you spend 6 months, 3 years or a whole lifetime on it.

You will never be "not hindu enough", you will never be a "bad Hindu". Stop. Stop it. You're hurting yourself.

Fortunate ones who got out of this curse or grew up directly in India or in Hinduism: please, don't let fellow brothers and sisters like that. Drop them a PM, get them out for some chai. Have a nice chat, divert them from those feelings and prevent isolation. It really don't take much of our time and energy, it is part of our duty to prevent this suffering. Some are first ones to jump to save cows, to save trees, to save dogs, but many forget to also care for fellow human beings.
And Gods know how hard it is to be and to find a decent one in those dark times. Become one and treasure those you meet on your way.

Also here is a kitten to make this stupid rambling more cute:
KittenRescue_KittenCareHandbook.jpg


Aum Namah Shivaya
There should be a guide for converts to prevent them from getting confused and to facilitate their path into Hinduism: I have been working on a theory for this and am attempting to draw up a list of things that are important do's and dont's for the person thinking that they are attracted to Hinduism. Of course joining this Hinduism DIR forum would help any convert:

For example, should the convert first consider ethical dharma components, do yoga, do puja in a home shrine or by visiting temples or study mythological and scriptural material like the Bhagavad Gita? What about a pilgrimage to India to see how Hindus live. A dip in the sacred river Ganga perhaps. Even in India Hindus are attracted to sites of pilgrimage such as going on the Tirtha Yatra. These are vital ingredients that would prevent the curse of converts and reinforce their new-found interest in Hinduism. The converts have to feel that they are Hindu and undertake the practices that are essential.
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Each convert's story is unique. Not one method fits all, but from forums, from interaction, from time, it all comes together. Fortunately there are lots of guides.
 

Shantanu

Well-Known Member
Each convert's story is unique. Not one method fits all, but from forums, from interaction, from time, it all comes together. Fortunately there are lots of guides.
It does not all have to come together for everyone, it only needs to come as far down the track as it can in order not to feel that one is not being a good Hindu - if one stops doing certain practices that are essential, eg dharma.

Choose your dharma (on the basis of your innate ethical values or things that have been taught to you are true), find a deity that represents that dharma (if none currently exist, think of a name for the deity and it will be created); or as in the case of @Aupmanyav, no deity at all, worship or do not worship through puja (depending on your devotion and fear factor) and that is all there is it do with being nor not being a good Hindu. How is that for your essential guide on how to be a good Hindu?
 
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sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Great Discussion!

I find that I'm learning to "chill" more often. I still worry about "being tested" - as in someone questioning me about what I know about how to be a "good Hindu" and not knowing all (or any!) of the answers. But time and time again, people are mostly just curious and kind.

I think the biggest thing for me is I'm still caught in what I call "Perpetual Guest Syndrome", which is where no matter how long you are a member of a community, you are treated special from other devotees and are often not held to the same community standards for behavior at temple. (Not that I'm a bad egg, just that if I make mistakes I'd like to know about it so I can fix it). Being stuck here is nice for a really long time because it always feels great to be welcomed warmly, but eventually, as the cliche goes, I just want to be like all the other kids in school ;)

I'll be taking a training workshop in a few weeks offered by HAF. They are teaching people to be "Dharma Ambassadors" or representatives from the community that can go to schools and colleges and speak about Hinduism. The training preps learners with information of various tricky topics in Hinduism, so at the very least, I'm hoping to get more acquainted with my own beliefs =)
Let us know how the training workshop goes. :)
 
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