The Death Penalty

[whereismynotecard]

In my opinion, some people deserve death. Some people even deserve worse, but death is kind of the worst thing next to torture and then death that anyone is going to be willing to do...

 

[Storm]

But we're not talking about a dog. We're talking about a human being. And as Aqualung said, if you think that someone can do something to lose the right to live, then it means that life if a privilege, not a right. My opposition to the death penalty isn't out of sympathy for the offenders. My motivation is to protect the right to life.

As I said, as far as I'm considered, the "people" I'm talking about aren't human. And no, I honestly don't see it as any different than putting down a rabid dog.

 

[Storm]

And no, it's not about revenge. Revenge would be death by torture.

 

[+Xausted]

Not minors, children. Prepubescent children. I'm talking about sexual predators here, not some domb teenager whose girlfriend's dad got ******.

Therefore define the age that one becomes a minor, not a child

 

[lilithu]

As I said, as far as I'm considered, the "people" I'm talking about aren't human.

And you have an objective way to determine who is a human and who is not?

And no, it's not about revenge. Revenge would be death by torture.

Just like capital punishment, the reason why we are against torture is so that it won't be done to us.

Just out of curiosity, how do you square your views on the death penalty and torture with the First Principle of Unitarian Universalism?

 

[Storm]

Therefore define the age that one becomes a minor, not a child

They're different measurements, Jayne. And this is not a subject where I'm interested in semantic quibbling. You know damn well what I'm talking about.

 

[Storm]

I'm too close to this, so I'm bowing out for now.

I will however, answer this:

Just out of curiosity, how do you square your views on the death penalty and torture with the First Principle of Unitarian Universalism?

First off, I never said I approved of torture. Go back and reread what I did say.

As for how I square the death penalty and the First Principle, the latter is a beautiful ideal. Unfortunately, I've been face to face with the ugly reality.

 

[+Xausted]

They're different measurements, Jayne. And this is not a subject where I'm interested in semantic quibbling. You know damn well what I'm talking about.

I am only pointing out the flaws in the arguement. I am not nessessrily disagreeing with you, rather I want you to define your ideas more coherantly so there can be no misunderstandings.

 

[Storm]

Sorry for my testiness, everyone. I'll come back when and if I get my temper under control.

 

[gnomon]

In my opinion, some people deserve death. Some people even deserve worse, but death is kind of the worst thing next to torture and then death that anyone is going to be willing to do...

"Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment..."-Gandalf

Sorry.

Couldn't resist because the beginning of your post reminded me of that.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Prison should be for rehabilitation. Not that that's working either.

Why?

I see prison as separation of an offender from society and depriving him or her of normal rights and privileges. What about that necessarily says "rehabilitation only"?

I think that its principal purpose is deterrence, not rehabilitation, but I think it can also serve the purpose of simple separation of a threat from the people endangered by it.

And no, it's not about revenge. Revenge would be death by torture.

That would be more severe revenge, but there is still revenge in capital punishment, IMO.

 

[+Xausted]

Just out of curiosity, how do you square your views on the death penalty and torture with the First Principle of Unitarian Universalism?

Sorry this is off the OP (but it is my thread, so I dont care) and i am going to show my ignorance, but what do you mean by the above statement? i have no idea what it is, and I need to understand what your point is

 

[lilithu]

First off, I never said I approved of torture.

OK, much relieved to hear that.

As for how I square the death penalty and the First Principle, the latter is a beautiful ideal. Unfortunately, I've been face to face with the ugly reality.

Citing "reality" is how people get around principles. George Bush and his supporters cite "reality" to justify the taking away of civil liberties. There may indeed be times when one must really set aside one's principles for the sake of justice. But we ought not be so quick to discard them. You have not given a reason why we "must" kill certain offenders. You've only given the pejorative of calling them "rabid dogs" and said that in your opinion they are not human. These are not persuasive arguments.

 

[whereismynotecard]

"Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment..."-Gandalf

Sorry.

Couldn't resist because the beginning of your post reminded me of that.

I love Gandalf. But I also love Gollum... It wasn't Gollum's fault that he was kind of mean... A certain someone I know deserves death. I wish I could give it to him, but then I'd go to jail if the wrong people found out.

 

[Storm]

These are not persuasive arguments.

They weren't intended to be. I ended up ranting a bit, but I don't expect people to agree with me. I'd also like to restate that I'm actually ambivalent about the death penalty. I don't trust the current system to get it right.

 

[whereismynotecard]

I think we should each carry out our own "death penalties." I'd align myself with some big strong people to make sure no one kills me... I guess what I'm saying is, I'd like to be a member of the mafia...

 

[Storm]

Jayne, Lilithu and I are both UUs. The First Principle is the inherent worth and dignity of all people.

 

[+Xausted]

Jayne, Lilithu and I are both UUs. The First Principle is the inherent worth and dignity of all people.

whoops sorry, I underlined too much. I know that you both are UU's, I didnt know anything about The First Principle. Can you clarify it a bit more, just expand upon it a bit, humour me (I actually dont know anything about your beliefs in general though as well.)

 

[lilithu]

Sorry this is off the OP (but it is my thread, so I dont care) and i am going to show my ignorance, but what do you mean by the above statement? i have no idea what it is, and I need to understand what your point is

Sorry, I did not see this earlier.

Unitarian Universalists affirm and promote Seven Principles. The First Principle is the inherent worth and dignity of every person. As a denomination, we are against the death penalty because it violates the First Principle. But because UU affirms freedom of conscience, individual UUs are free to disagree with what the majority of UUs decide. However, we can still ask them how they square their disagreements with the principles.

 

[Storm]

Honestly, Lilithu, I've never given it much thought. My initial response was knee-jerk reaction. You've given me something to ponder, and for that I thank you.