The Death Penalty

[9-10ths_Penguin]

A corpse commits no crime.

I was referring to the idea of making executions public. Turning them into "examples" does nothing for deterrence.

This is especially true when their answer is "Yeah, right" or "not me". When it becomes less of a threat and more of a reality... it might become a deterrent.

Which underscores the point that if the actual aim is crime prevention, a society without capital punishment would be better served by increasing enforcement and leaving sentences alone than killing their criminals.

 

[Charity]

I do agree with the death penalty. :yes:

 

[kai]

Whats your thoughts on it?

ridiculous, archaic, Brutal and uncivilized. do not kill or we kill you! not very moral is it

 

[Aqualung]

So... basically, a mixture of argumentum ad populum and appeal to authority?

You mean, Argumentum ad verecundiam. if you're going to talk in latin, you have to be consistent.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You mean, Argumentum ad verecundiam. if you're going to talk in latin, you have to be consistent.

Enh. I just used the names I know them by... in that regard, I was consistent.

 

[Aqualung]

Question for those discussing this: What about catharsis for the victims or loved ones of the victims?

There catharsis is less than a right to life. Catharsis is pretty convenient and helpful, but it's not the state's place to feed their vindictiveness and thus give them peace. The state must honour one person's absolute right to life above another person's desire for something that isn't a right (namely, catharsis).

 

[Aqualung]

Enh. I just used the names I know them by... in that regard, I was consistent.

Lol, fair enough.

 

[cardero]

Whats your thoughts on it?

The difference between us and a person who has received the death penalty is that the person who is scheduled for execution knows when they are going to die.

 

[wednesday]

Given western prisons these days more prisoners who have murdered have a better chance than honest battling families.
As a supporter ive always thought án eye for an eye' but imagine if it was a family member, you'd never want to see them put to death. No system is perfect, there will always be people wrongly killed. Death is too severe, but our current systems are a joke

 

[lilithu]

Question for those discussing this: What about catharsis for the victims or loved ones of the victims? Some would argue that the death penalty helps to bring about a sort of catharsis for those so drastically affected by the perpetrator of the crime.

Some might call this "revenge", some might call it "coming to terms". Where does this "catharsis" fall in your reasoning in this matter?

The term catharsis refers to a transformation. What transformation is there in the killing of someone who has done you harm? Coming to terms means acceptance of what has happened. Again, killing someone is not coming to terms. What I most often hear in favor of the death penalty is that families need it for "closure" so that they can move on. BUT often families say the death penalty process hurts them more than it heals.

Death Penalty Quotes - Victims' Families
The "closure" myth - Salon.com
CNS STORY: Murder victims' families say death penalty exacts toll on their lives


The death penalty is state-sanctioned revenge. I can understand why some victims want revenge. I'm not blaming them for it. But I can't understand why the state would facilitate that revenge.

 

[Draka]

The state must honour one person's absolute right to life above another person's desire for something that isn't a right (namely, catharsis).

At which time the question is asked..."Why should that one person's "right to life" be honored when they didn't honor all these people's "right to life"? In the case of a murderer, or serial killer, they obviously don't believe in or prize the "right to life" anyway, so why should theirs be respected? Seems to me they forfeited their "right to life" when they willingly took that right from another. They may have just ruined the lives of the victims' families and caused all kinds of hardships just to get by in life, yet they warrant getting 3 hot meals and a cot and even recreation for the rest of their lives? I'm certainly not saying prison is easy, but you don't have to worry about keeping a roof over your head, paying the bills, or where your next meal is coming from. The victims of their crimes do not have those gaurantees. Why should the person that put them in the horrible situation they are in be taken care of for years and years to come?

 

[lilithu]

At which time the question is asked..."Why should that one person's "right to life" be honored when they didn't honor all these people's "right to life"? In the case of a murderer, or serial killer, they obviously don't believe in or prize the "right to life" anyway, so why should theirs be respected?

Because a RIGHT is not something that is earned.

 

[Magic Man]

I'm with Storm on this one.

Everyone has a right to life. Life in society is a priviledge. No one really wants any of the people on death row, or even many of those just in prison, who are actually guilty to be out in society. I think we can all agree on that.

The problem then becomes whether or not they have the right to be financially supported by the rest of us in society. I'm not sure that they do. I don't really want to pay for the living expenses of someone just because he/she killed some people. If that person can be rehabilitated, then I'm all for doing what it takes to accomplish tha. But, as has been said, some of these people are beyond rehabilitation. If there's no hope of rehabilitating them so that they can be a productive member of society, then either throw them out somewhere, as Britain did in the past to Australia, or execute them. The point being that if they want to separate themselves to a place where they have no chance to harm other members of society, they are more than welcome to do that. If they are not willing to do that, then they need to conform to our standards, or we should do it for them.

In theory, I tend to agree with the death penalty. In practice, I know it has its problems because it is a human function. Life is not fair, one way or the other. I think as long as it's done as correctly as we possibly can, it is useful. I say that knowing that it leaves open the possibility of me being executed for something I didn't do, as some others I'm sure have been. I just think it's worth it, unless we can find another way to do an Australia thing.

 

[Draka]

Because a RIGHT is not something that is earned.

But one can forfeit a right. I'm not talking about earning it, I'm talking about giving it up.

 

[cardero]

I'm with Storm on this one.
Everyone has a right to life.

Till what time?

 

[lilithu]

The problem then becomes whether or not they have the right to be financially supported by the rest of us in society. I'm not sure that they do. I don't really want to pay for the living expenses of someone just because he/she killed some people.

You do understand that a lot of people work while in prison, right?

Not to mention the cost of the legal fees as we go through the appeals process. (And for those who would shorten the appeals process I remind you that we have placed innocent people on death row.)

Not to mention, not to mention that the cost of one execution by lethal injection is equal to the cost to housing a prisoner for 35 years.

Not to mention, not to mention, not to mention that whether we KILL someone or not should NEVER hinge on MONEY.

 

[Draka]

You do understand that a lot of people work while in prison, right?

Not to mention the cost of the legal fees as we go through the appeals process. (And for those who would shorten the appeals process I remind you that we have placed innocent people on death row.)

Not to mention, not to mention that the cost of one execution by lethal injection is equal to the cost to housing a prisoner for 35 years.

Not to mention, not to mention, not to mention that whether we KILL someone or not should NEVER hinge on MONEY.

No, it should hinge on the fact that they gave up their "right to life" when they forcibly took someone else's.


As for your other points, yes they do work, kitchen helpers or laundry and such like that that wouldn't afford most people on the outside a decent home or groceries without having at least two incomes.

WE pay for their housing, food and upkeep. WE end up paying the bulk majority of their legal fees (because let's face it, they certainly aren't paying them with the 60 cents they make an hour).

 

[Storm]

*wades back in carefully*

I'd also point out that, despite my strong feelings, I find life imprisonment far more inhumane. Maybe that can be taken care of by prison reform, but I don't see it happening.

 

[lilithu]

No, it should hinge on the fact that they gave up their "right to life" when they forcibly took someone else's.

I believe that life is an inherent right. One does not forfeit it for bad behavior.

As for your other points, yes they do work, kitchen helpers or laundry and such like that that wouldn't afford most people on the outside a decent home or groceries without having at least two incomes.

WE pay for their housing, food and upkeep. WE end up paying the bulk majority of their legal fees (because let's face it, they certainly aren't paying them with the 60 cents they make an hour).

First off, surely you're not suggesting that they do not have the right to legal representation. Need I remind you of the number of innocent people we have put on death row??

Secondly, the work that they produce is the same as the work that others produce. If they only make 60 cents an hour, then someone is unfairly profiting from their labor. I'm not saying that money should go to the prisoners; I'm saying it should go towards paying their keep. Do you not wonder who is profiting from this system?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

This is what I find interesting - we criticize other nations for their human rights abuses, and yet the U.S. repeatedly finds itself in the company of these same nations when it comes to the number and/or rate of executions it commits on it's own people. You know, places like Saudi Arabia and Iran.......

I'm against capital punishment, btw. I find it to be state-sanctioned pre-meditated murder. That's just me, though.