The Debate of God.

[godnotgod]

And all of this to support a living entity?

That which you refer to is not living in the same sense that you and I are living. You and I are subject to birth and death; the Infinite is not.

That you lean to a discussion that denies a line drawn....
doesn't mean that line can't be drawn.

The line exists in your mind.

The act of creation indicates a Creator

.

You assume there was a 'creation'. Maybe not. Show me the source of the original material out of which your 'creation' came into being.

That we are of God's image indicates emotional character.
That He refrains from mind control, indicates freewill.
And so on.

God looks like us, and existed prior to our manifestation in a human-like image?

 

[godnotgod]

Talk to a cosmologist, that or polyhedral.

Actually, when I see him I'll direct him to this.

I assumed via your response, ie 'curved universe' that you yourself understood the nature of your response.

 

[jasonwill2]

I assumed via your response, ie 'curved universe' that you yourself understood the nature of your response.

the physicist can explain it better than me though.

 

[Thief]

That which you refer to is not living in the same sense that you and I are living. You and I are subject to birth and death; the Infinite is not.

This we can agree upon

The line exists in your mind.

And this is your technique of word play...not a rebuttal.

You assume there was a 'creation'. Maybe not. Show me the source of the original material out of which your 'creation' came into being.

No assumption here....look around you.

God looks like us, and existed prior to our manifestation in a human-like image?

Your last question is more word play....you know better.

 

[Prophet]

I find that when many say that man is made in God's image, what they mean is that other animals which have arisen through the evolution of life on this planet are lacking this divine trait because of deficiency in self-awareness caused by limited intelligence. I wonder if this is in line with some of the reasoning here.

 

[otokage007]

there are about 6 billion people who believe in God.

I think u are overestimating the credibility of your God here

 

[Thief]

I find that when many say that man is made in God's image, what they mean is that other animals which have arisen through the evolution of life on this planet are lacking this divine trait because of deficiency in self-awareness caused by limited intelligence. I wonder if this is in line with some of the reasoning here.

The diversity is required as the lesser forms are support the next level up.
At the top of the food chain....here we are.

Still, I suspect greater forms of life...in spirit.

 

[Thief]

I think u are overestimating the credibility of your God here

And you're saying no chance of surviving your last breath?
The odds are billions against you?

 

[otokage007]

And you're saying no chance of surviving your last breath?
The odds are billions against you?

Maybe you should teach me a lesson about stadistics.

 

[Prophet]

The diversity is required as the lesser forms are support the next level up.
At the top of the food chain....here we are.

Still, I suspect greater forms of life...in spirit.

I cannot see what the food chain has to do with God's image. To me, it sounds like you believe that divinity is imparted to a being's soul by having a balanced diet consisting of a sufficient number of lesser forms of life, which I'm certain you'd agree is ridiculous. Also, humans have been at the top of the food chain for a mere blink of an eye in the history of earth. Was the tyrannosaurus divine during its reign?

Let's not forget that humans are not the only apex predator around. Are sharks now divine under your system?

I'm pretty certain we're having some misunderstanding here.

 

[godnotgod]

I find that when many say that man is made in God's image, what they mean is that other animals which have arisen through the evolution of life on this planet are lacking this divine trait because of deficiency in self-awareness caused by limited intelligence. I wonder if this is in line with some of the reasoning here.

Actually, here is the exact Biblical passage referring to this subject:

Genesis 1:26-27
New International Version (NIV)

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

As Catholic schoolchildren, we were always instructed by the nuns that 'we were made in the image and likeness of God', which I understood to mean both in the physical and spiritual sense.

But it is clear from the Biblical passage above that what is meant is that man should have dominion over less-evolved life forms, in the same manner that God has dominion over man. In other words, the scenario of the creation is that of a hierarchy, a kingdom, which indicates that it is man who is creating both God and his 'kingdom' in the 'image and likeness' of man and his interpretation of how the world is structured. We have many pictorial renditions of God the Father as an old man in flowing robes and white beard floating around in the heavens, ruling over all from above, an image which prompted the philosopher Heckel to humorously refer to him as 'the gaseous vertebrate'. In particular is the famous image by Michelangelo depicting God magically imparting some of his power to Adam via of touching fingers:

But even more telltale than this is the human-like image of God portrayed as an artisan, the 'Maker',where God the Father is designing the world with a compass:

It should be particularly noted that Genesis 1:26 refers to 'OUR' image and likeness. Who, exactly, does 'OUR' refer to?

 

[Prophet]

What exactly do you mean when you say "man should have dominion over less evolved life forms"? To me, it seems like this philosophy is meant to excuse man for his misuses of his own superiority to lesser life forms. Is this philosophy one you hold?

 

[godnotgod]

What exactly do you mean when you say "man should have dominion over less evolved life forms"? To me, it seems like this philosophy is meant to excuse man for his misuses of his own superiority to lesser life forms. Is this philosophy one you hold?

Not at all. I am merely reflecting the Biblical meaning as man interprets his own position in the world. Do you see another viable interpretation?

These two passages are probably responsible for much of the damage to the ecosystem that man has incurred over the centuries, as it tends to place man above nature rather than to integrate him with it.

 

[kylixguru]

Actually, here is the exact Biblical passage referring to this subject:

Genesis 1:26-27
New International Version (NIV)

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

As Catholic schoolchildren, we were always instructed by the nuns that 'we were made in the image and likeness of God', which I understood to mean both in the physical and spiritual sense.

Yes, it is in every respect.

But it is clear from the Biblical passage above that what is meant is that man should have dominion over less-evolved life forms, in the same manner that God has dominion over man.

This is the advent of a new Father who shall serve as such for another round of Creation.
Adam was ordained by the God of Heaven to "take the torch" so to speak.
He was created to be honoured and revered by all others as their Father and their God.

In other words, the scenario of the creation is that of a hierarchy, a kingdom, which indicates that it is man who is creating both God and his 'kingdom' in the 'image and likeness' of man and his interpretation of how the world is structured.

Yes, it is a heirarchy. And, it has nothing to do with actual birds, fishes and beasts. Those "creatures" are a metaphor that depict the likeness of the levels of glory where the fulness of the glory of God is likened to "man".

All of the symbols and structures in the days of creation are the framework upon which all of the souls of humankind are organized into. Some souls are deemed to be the flesh or glory of "fishes", some of "birds", some of "fourfooted beasts" and "creeping things", etc. and the greatest is "man".

These are levels of spiritual resurrection that humans can attain to in the judgment when all of the "new names" are given to the "creatures" by Adam. The spiritual creation is represented by the level of light and truth that humans attain to in their minds based upon the level of truths God reveals to them over the period of the Creation. When spiritual birth takes place by way of hearing and receiving the Word of God, humans are transformed into an angelic state to some level of glory.

For example, Catholics are represented by the symbol of the "fish". They represent the lowest order of angelic creation that was brought on Day 5, which is the 5th millennium or the 5th heaven. They are "creatures" in the "waters" wherin dwells the "breath of life". Rev 17:15 says the "waters" are the nations, kindreds and tongues of men. This is the Gentiles. Catholics have spiritual birth by way of the "breath of life" but they are yet submersed in (subject to) the rule of the Gentiles. Their level of understanding and spiritual evolution is comparatively low. Therefore, despite the level of spiritual life that they bring and the good that they do, we also see much error and atrocity perpetrated by them over the centuries. They clearly lacked the glory to bring in world peace through their dominion and so it is proper that they look for the higher levels of glory and yield to their dominion when they come.

We have many pictorial renditions of God the Father as an old man in flowing robes and white beard floating around in the heavens, ruling over all from above, an image which prompted the philosopher Heckel to humorously refer to him as 'the gaseous vertebrate'. In particular is the famous image by Michelangelo depicting God magically imparting some of his power to Adam via of touching fingers:

This picture of Adam and God reminds me of how cells replicate. You end up with a perfect replica when this process completes. It is clear to me that Adam was ordained to be the Father and God of the whole new cycle of Creation that he would be responsible to organize by "naming" all the "creatures". He would perform this work of organization and creation throughout his whole life, which is a period of almost 1000 years. He would suffer a temporary setback by falling but Son of Man would redeem him and he would regain his throne. He would labor all through the 7th heaven (the Millennium) to judge all of the souls of men who lived in the 6 creation days prior and determine their level of glory they would merit in the creation days to follow. Upon Adam's redemption He truly does become our Father and our God since the new Creation is birthed by way of his labors. Adam is the new Great Architect of the Universe, which isn't a cosmic universe, but rather which is His Family.

 

[Thief]

I cannot see what the food chain has to do with God's image. To me, it sounds like you believe that divinity is imparted to a being's soul by having a balanced diet consisting of a sufficient number of lesser forms of life, which I'm certain you'd agree is ridiculous. Also, humans have been at the top of the food chain for a mere blink of an eye in the history of earth. Was the tyrannosaurus divine during its reign?

Let's not forget that humans are not the only apex predator around. Are sharks now divine under your system?

I'm pretty certain we're having some misunderstanding here.

Try seeing it from God's point of view...yes you can.

After creating the universe...you would be alone.
And in spite of the huge expanse....you would be in isolated confinement.

Setting yourself in more than one place might be do-able...
but you would be talking to yourself...your own Echo.

The solution is a blend between substance and spirit.
At first the chemistry is simple.
But will not produce a mind and heart of...spirit.

Centuries pass and then, it is obvious more active chemistry is needed.
Animals take over where plant life was all.
Then the lesser forms of animal become prey for quicker creatures.

Eventually you choose one item for your own.
With some hands on manipulation, you bestow...a spirit.
Man is no longer the creature he was.

Now see if Genesis reads a bit differently.

 

[kylixguru]

But even more telltale than this is the human-like image of God portrayed as an artisan, the 'Maker',where God the Father is designing the world with a compass:

It should be particularly noted that Genesis 1:26 refers to 'OUR' image and likeness. Who, exactly, does 'OUR' refer to?

Adam being in the image and likeness of God means that he too is a body of flesh and bone. What this means is Adam is composed of a plurality of members.

God, properly understood, is an "US".

This is Eloheim, a plurality of members united as ONE in the highest level of covenant that can be entered into.

This is why when in Genesis 6:2 the "Sons of God" (B'nai Eloheim or members of God's body of flesh and bone) betrayed their covenants in how they took daughters of men as captive wives, they became cursed above all. Where much is given, much is required. Those who abuse authority and station as members of God's body to satisfy their lusts bring upon themselves extremely grave and severe consequences.

 

[godnotgod]

God, properly understood, is an "US".

This is Eloheim...

Yes, that was my take on it. However, the term is open to interpretation as to whether it refers to a singular entity or a multiplicity of gods, even extending back into pagan roots, which is my own suspicion, even to the point where Yaweh, Ba'al, and Moloch are all the same deity:

Elohim (אֱלֹהִ֔י&#1501 is a grammatically singular or plural noun for "god" or "gods" in both modern and ancient Hebrew language. When used with singular verbs and adjectives elohim is usually singular, "god" or especially, the God. When used with plural verbs and adjectives elohim is usually plural, "gods" or "powers".

More here:

Elohim - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Prophet]

Not at all. I am merely reflecting the Biblical meaning as man interprets his own position in the world. Do you see another viable interpretation?

These two passages are probably responsible for much of the damage to the ecosystem that man has incurred over the centuries, as it tends to place man above nature rather than to integrate him with it.

There's no way available to me currently to deduce the ancient original author's meaning. I can tell you what is true. All sentient life forms are made in God's image. Not just mankind.

 

[kylixguru]

Yes, that was my take on it. However, the term is open to interpretation as to whether it refers to a singular entity or a multiplicity of gods, even extending back into pagan roots, which is my own suspicion, even to the point where Yaweh, Ba'al, and Moloch are all the same deity:

Elohim (אֱלֹהִ֔י&#1501 is a grammatically singular or plural noun for "god" or "gods" in both modern and ancient Hebrew language. When used with singular verbs and adjectives elohim is usually singular, "god" or especially, the God. When used with plural verbs and adjectives elohim is usually plural, "gods" or "powers".

More here:

Elohim - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Paganism is simply the carrying forward of the past events in past cycles of Creation.

It is shunned by God because that brings in knowledge and ideas that are out of context for the playing out of a new cycle of creation.

As I understand it, there is a personal advent of 3 figures during a single cycle of creation.

The Father is first, in the beginning.
The Son is second, in the meridian of time.
The Holy Ghost is third, in the ending.

So, when we look back to the remains of past cycles of creation we will see echoes of the heroic lives of these significant figures having played out before. Much of the Pagan myths and lore are pretty much based on this. You will see accounts of all three of the significant personages that happen in a creation. And, it makes more sense when you realize that these heroic immortals are actually bodies of flesh and bone, which means a society of members. That's why you can chop off a head or pluck out an eye and a new one regenerates. Assassinate a president of a country and you will soon see a new president in the place of the dead one.

Baal, Dionysus, Jason (of Argonauts fame) seems to be the advent of the Father from cycles past.

 

[Prophet]

Try seeing it from God's point of view...yes you can...

I cannot blindly accept your assertion that I should allow you to speak beliefs into me because you profess to know God's point of view (or Truth, to state it simply).

After creating the universe...you would be alone.
And in spite of the huge expanse....you would be in isolated confinement.

Setting yourself in more than one place might be do-able...
but you would be talking to yourself...your own Echo.

The solution is a blend between substance and spirit.
At first the chemistry is simple.
But will not produce a mind and heart of...spirit.

Centuries pass and then, it is obvious more active chemistry is needed.
Animals take over where plant life was all.
Then the lesser forms of animal become prey for quicker creatures.

Eventually you choose one item for your own.
With some hands on manipulation, you bestow...a spirit.
Man is no longer the creature he was.

Now see if Genesis reads a bit differently.

The reason why you claim God's point of view becomes obvious when I read this. None of this is deducible. You make assumptions and proceed to extrapolate more assumptions from these assumptions. Do you have some concept of how weak this looks from a rational standpoint? This is the heart of what is wrong with fundamentalist doctrine.

Fundamentalism is a psychological condition that causes its adherents to accept assertions made by authorities without questioning or true understanding of the underlying principles. Because the authorities themselves do not understand any underlying principles, they assert their favor with God is sufficient.

Throughout the world, you'll find that where ignorance and evil is greatest, beings more readily accept fundamentalist authority as Truth.