godnotgod
Thou art That
It is 'self-existent' because it is self-created, and is therefore illusory.
There is no agent of thought called 'mind'; there is only thought itself.
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The Debate of God.
- Thread starter Daviso452
- Start date
It is 'self-existent' because it is self-created, and is therefore illusory.
There is no agent of thought called 'mind'; there is only thought itself.
Curious George
Veteran Member
Godnotgod has already suggested that there is no self. thus self-existance could be ruled out. However, the law of non-contradiction was also ruled out, so I suppose it is possible.
Disciple of Christ
Member
Question? How does one pre-exist ones existence?
Curious George
Veteran Member
Was your earlier question of me answered. If so, I will sign off. If not I will gladly stay and chat.
godnotgod
Thou art That
You don't. The self never existed in the first place, as it is purely a product of mind. But consciousness has always been present, though it is not YOUR consciousness.
Disciple of Christ
Member
Yes, was received thankyou.
Disciple of Christ
Member
Am I right to infer then that you are saying there is therefore a collective consciousness? If consciousness has always been present then is it by definition eternal?
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godnotgod
Thou art That
As an added note here, the concept of a self is absolutely necessary to the idea of salvation and a journey to an afterlife of reward or punishment. However, it is not necessary, in fact it stands in the way, of the idea of spiritual awakening in this eternal Present Moment. There is no self that awakens; there is only awakening itself. The word Nirvana literally means 'to extinguish' (you'll notice my avatar), so the illusory 'self' is no more during Awakening.
The Zen question is always: Who is it that lives? Who is it that dies?
If you can answer that, you will realize that life and death are illusions, and that True Reality lies beyond these dualities.
Disciple of Christ
Member
If true reality lies beyond then would not that reality therefore be ojective (apart from our experience and understanding) which is limted to subjectiveness? And if all are illusions then who or what is perceiving these illusions?
godnotgod
Thou art That
I believe 'collective consciousness' is a Jungian term, but yes, something like that, but not sure.
Yes, consciousness has always been present, but be careful with this, as it can seem to imply non-consciousness. The nature of the Absolute is that it is Unborn, so in that sense, it is beyond duality, beyond birth and death.
It is also important to make the distinction between 'existence' and 'being', which is summed up in Yeshu's statement:
'Before Abraham was, I AM'
Disciple of Christ
Member
Therefore, according to this statement, I can not "be" without the I AM". For in the "I AM" we live and move and have our very "being". Is there an absolute ?
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godnotgod
Thou art That
The use of the word 'beyond' would seem to imply what you are saying, and perhaps is a poor choice, but the point is that it is outside the trappings of the conceptual mind. That is to say, the conceptual mind cannot encapsulate true reality, because true reality is Infinite, Timeless, and Causeless. Having said that, true reality is none other than this ordinary reality, but our conditioned mind does not see it that way; we only see the conditioned version of it.
Our conditioned mentality is what imagines a reality beyond our own, and sees it as an object. But that is only conceptual thought. It has no basis in reality. Again, we are caught in the dual world of 'objective' and 'subjective', both of which are only concepts. In True Reality, there is neither.
'Who' or 'what' is perceiving these illusions is indeed the question. Without a self or mind in the way, you are the universe itself looking at itself through your eyes.
The key to understanding any of this is in SEEING, without thought, what the true nature of reality actually IS. The moment you begin to think about it, to conceptualize, you are far from it. YOU are IT.
godnotgod
Thou art That
Yes, because being is unborn, and not part of the illusion of duality. It is, therefore, Absolute, in that it has no equal, no opposite. There is no 'other'. Again, we need to be careful here, because we can imagine the Absolute to be all sorts of things, even being anthropomorphic.
Disciple of Christ
Member
If I remember correctly, How then would you distinguish this from pantheism which basically states that God is in all and all is God? And, Yes I would agree that beyond is outside the framework of the conceptual mind.
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godnotgod
Thou art That
As far as I can tell, there is no difference.
But we DO have the potential for bringing into play the mind of the Infinite, which is within. Zennists call this mind, 'Big Mind'.
Disciple of Christ
Member
Then what you are saying is that I am an extension of God and am therefore God, but unaware of my own existence. Once again, How can I precede my own existence if "I Am" (ever present) non "existent or unborn one".
godnotgod
Thou art That
"The universe IS the Absolute as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation"
The Absolute is playing all the parts of the universe simultaneously, in constant transformation of form. But this constant transformation of form is but a Grand Illusion. In truth, the Absolute is stillness itself, and has never moved even one iota. That it has is an illusion. That is the play of the divine called maya and lila in Hinduism.
The Absolute is playing all the parts of the universe simultaneously, in constant transformation of form. But this constant transformation of form is but a Grand Illusion. In truth, the Absolute is stillness itself, and has never moved even one iota. That it has is an illusion. That is the play of the divine called maya and lila in Hinduism.
godnotgod
Thou art That
That there is a self that is preceding itself is only an illusion, in part because to be able to do so would require the existence of Time, which does not exist in reality. Is it conceivable to you that the Absolute can both create the illusion and then become lost within it, so that it has clean forgotten who and what it actually is? If that is conceivable, can you think of a reason the Absolute would want to do this?
Disciple of Christ
Member
Then what you are saying is that it is a matter of semantics. The universe is God. Would this not be the proper conclusion?