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The default position...

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Bunyip

pro scapegoat
I am trying to get there. I believe you have said you were a weak atheist with regard to religion that you did not know. This is because you lack belief. Consequently, you do not believe that these gods (unknown to you) exist. However, you have stated you are a strong atheist (if I remember correctly) with regard to xtian God. Thus you do not believe in the xtian God. If these statements are the same, you could not differentiate between weak atheists and strong atheists.
Please answer to the point I specify in post #457 (which I re-post below for your convenience) first George.
I have asked you several times, if you will not engage on that point there is no point in continuing.

George; What I am saying is that not believing God exists, and believing that God does not exist ARE THE SAME POSITION.

Please respond to that point. This was my response to your original contention, and if you are unwilling to even engage upon it, that's fine George - but I'm done.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I am trying to show why it is possible to accept two truths simultaneously until evidence of the exclusion of one is discovered. I figure your background in quantum physics (or at least a portion of studies) might know a better way to prove this. Any direction you can offer here?
Well, it's possible for a molecule composed of 430 atoms to be in two places at once, possible for a physical system to be measured as a wave or as a particle based on decisions AFTER measurement, and about a century or so of many-valued logics (and decades of one which is infinitely-valued) to support this idea. One of the reasons classical logic can't deal with mental state predicates like "believe" is because it leads naturally to something being true and false (or neither). My typical example is Clark Kent and Superman.

(1) Louis Lane believes that Superman can fly.
(2) Clark Kent is Superman
(3) *Louis Lane believes Clark Kent can fly
I've opted against using logical symbols and the format used in derivations because I think it this form is adequate enough. Basically, in classical logic one has the identify operator ("is", "are", "=", or any operator that equates the subject and predicate). Whenever we find something of the form "X is Y" meaning that X and Y are two labels for the same thing (e.g., one's member name here and one's actual name have the same referent), truth preserving rules of inference allow one to replace any instance in Y with X and vice versa. Thus, formal logic would (if it allowed mental state predicates like "believes") allow us to infer (3) from (1) and (2). However, (3) isn't true, and even outside of a fictional example the same logic will fail.

This can be made even more simple.

The superposition state of a molecule composed of 430 atoms I mentioned wasn't just a potentially possible realization but the experimental result of a study published in Nature Communications. The molecule was found to be in two "legs" of the interferometer or, to simplify this just consider location X and Y. The researchers were able to create a superposition state in which a single molecule was at location X and Y at the same time. Let's say that I say I believe the molecule was in location X. Somebody tells me "you arrogant moron, it was clearly in position Y!". I tell them I believe it was in Y. They respond "you can't believe two mutually exclusive things to be true. My god what is the world coming to?". I say "Apparently, one in which we don't have to rely merely on highly abstract, arcane philosophical discussions or incredibly technical discussions because we are literally able to create macroscopic systems that are in mutually exclusive states independent of belief, such that to NOT believe both states are true would be wrong."

I then get beaten up in a dark alley.

Given that is it necessary to accept what in classical logic would be mutually exclusive statements as both being true, I would say it is certainly "possible to accept two truths simultaneously until evidence of the exclusion of one is discovered". That's without the various other motivations for many-valued logics, belief functions in subjective and/or Bayesian epistemology, etc. Interestingly, belief functions in Bayesian statistics/epistemology/analysis are formally defined as axioms as a foundation for scientific methods and discovery, and the first is that a belief that "not H" given "H is true" is merely less than or equal to the belief in F given H which is less than or equal to the belief that H is true given H is true.
 
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ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Factually false.

Belief can factually change from belief to knowledge.

Example 1 + 1 =2 DO YOU BELIEVE THE ANSWER IS 2 or do you know it is 2. OK, you "know" it is two and knowledge has changed belief.
A strong atheist says "I believe gods don't exist". He says absolutely nothing about what he KNOWS.
I know god was created by man, so I am an atheist.
Then you are a "ghostic atheist".
At one time I did have a belief,
Then you were a theist.
but with knowledge and education, I no longer have any belief.
Then you have become a "gnostic atheist".
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
1. Believing God does not exist.
And
2. Disbelieving in God.

Are the same.
No it's not the same. Disbelief is defined as "inability or refusal to accept that something is true or real." It is not defined as "belief that the opposite is true".
How can you keep ignoring that?George, that is a purely semantic difference - slightly altering how you write a claim does not really change anything. Not believing 'A', is the SAME as disbelieving 'A'.
That is correct. Not believing 'A' is the same as disbelieving 'A'. It is not the same as believing the opposite of 'A'.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Not believing God does exist and believing God does not exist are THE SAME POSITION. As I keep saying, it is two different ways of writing the same thing.
LOL. Are you serious? A person who says "I do not believe God exists and I do not believe God doesn't exist I don't believe either way" and a person who says "I believe God doesn't exist" says the same thing and have the same position?!
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
No it's not the same. Disbelief is defined as "inability or refusal to accept that something is true or real." It is not defined as "belief that the opposite is true".That is correct. Not believing 'A' is the same as disbelieving 'A'. It is not the same as believing the opposite of 'A'.
What is the difference in reference to the existence of God? How is it not the same?
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Please answer to the point I specify in post #457 (which I re-post below for your convenience) first George.
I have asked you several times, if you will not engage on that point there is no point in continuing.

George; What I am saying is that not believing God exists, and believing that God does not exist ARE THE SAME POSITION.

Please respond to that point. This was my response to your original contention, and if you are unwilling to even engage upon it, that's fine George - but I'm done.
Well I am trying to figure out how I did not cover that. But I will try again in a different way.

Not believing God exists means that one subjectively does not accept that god exists.

Believing God does not exist means that one accepts as true the proposition "God does not exist."

In the first we are talking about what a person rejects, does not accept, can not accept.

In the second we are talking about what a person accepts.

Accepting the idea that god does not exist, differs from an inability or refusal to accept the idea God exists. An example of this comes from the differentiation between negative atheists and positive atheists. The former deal with what they do not accept vs. The latter, whom deal with what the do believe.

If you were to ask a negative atheist, "do you believe in God?" They would say no. If you then said "ahh, then you believe God does not exist" they would say no.

Trying yet another way,

Imagine I had a box of books. And I asked someone "do those books, measure odd or even in number." The person might reply, "I don't know." But I pressed that person further, saying, "surely you agree that the books must number odd or even?" And this person would reply, "yes." So I push more, asking, "do you believe they are even?" The person then says "no." So I say "ahh, so you believe they are odd." And again the person says no. This is because the person does not hold a belief either way. They are uncertain what to believe. This is the default position. But it may still be fairly categorized as not holding a belief. If however the person saw me putting some of the books in and believed me to have placed twenty books in the box they might say "I believe the books are even in number"

In this, we see that not believing the books are odd in number is different from believing the books are even. In this same manner, not believing God exists is different from believing God does not exist.

Hopefully, this is clear enough. If not, I will try again.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Well, it's possible for a molecule composed of 430 atoms to be in two places at once, possible for a physical system to be measured as a wave or as a particle based on decisions AFTER measurement, and about a century or so of many-valued logics (and decades of one which is infinitely-valued) to support this idea. One of the reasons classical logic can't deal with mental state predicates like "believe" is because it leads naturally to something being true and false (or neither). My typical example is Clark Kent and Superman.

(1) Louis Lane believes that Superman can fly.
(2) Clark Kent is Superman
(3) *Louis Lane believes Clark Kent can fly
I've opted against using logical symbols and the format used in derivations because I think it this form is adequate enough. Basically, in classical logic one has the identify operator ("is", "are", "=", or any operator that equates the subject and predicate). Whenever we find something of the form "X is Y" meaning that X and Y are two labels for the same thing (e.g., one's member name here and one's actual name have the same referent), truth preserving rules of inference allow one to replace any instance in Y with X and vice versa. Thus, formal logic would (if it allowed mental state predicates like "believes") allow us to infer (3) from (1) and (2). However, (3) isn't true, and even outside of a fictional example the same logic will fail.

This can be made even more simple.

The superposition state of a molecule composed of 430 atoms I mentioned wasn't just a potentially possible realization but the experimental result of a study published in Nature Communications. The molecule was found to be in two "legs" of the interferometer or, to simplify this just consider location X and Y. The researchers were able to create a superposition state in which a single molecule was at location X and Y at the same time. Let's say that I say I believe the molecule was in location X. Somebody tells me "you arrogant moron, it was clearly in position Y!". I tell them I believe it was in Y. They respond "you can't believe two mutually exclusive things to be true. My god what is the world coming to?". I say "Apparently, one in which we don't have to rely merely on highly abstract, arcane philosophical discussions or incredibly technical discussions because we are literally able to create macroscopic systems that are in mutually exclusive states independent of belief, such that to NOT believe both states are true would be wrong."

I then get beaten up in a dark alley.

Given that is it necessary to accept what in classical logic would be mutually exclusive statements as both being true, I would say it is certainly "possible to accept two truths simultaneously until evidence of the exclusion of one is discovered". That's without the various other motivations for many-valued logics, belief functions in subjective and/or Bayesian epistemology, etc. Interestingly, belief functions in Bayesian statistics/epistemology/analysis are formally defined as axioms as a foundation for scientific methods and discovery, and the first is that a belief that "not H" given "H is true" is merely less than or equal to the belief in F given H which is less than or equal to the belief that H is true given H is true.
I forgot this superman example you used before and went back to thinking of belief as a matter of fact thing without thinking of the consequences. Thank you for representing it to me.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Well I am trying to figure out how I did not cover that. But I will try again in a different way.

Not believing God exists means that one subjectively does not accept that god exists.

Believing God does not exist means that one accepts as true the proposition "God does not exist."

In the first we are talking about what a person rejects, does not accept, can not accept.

In the second we are talking about what a person accepts.
What is the difference? Other than the phrasing?
Accepting the idea that god does not exist, differs from an inability or refusal to accept the idea God exists.
Does it? How?
An example of this comes from the differentiation between negative atheists and positive atheists. The former deal with what they do not accept vs. The latter, whom deal with what the do believe.

If you were to ask a negative atheist, "do you believe in God?" They would say no. If you then said "ahh, then you believe God does not exist" they would say no.
Why would they do that? Can you give a quote please?
Trying yet another way,

Imagine I had a box of books. And I asked someone "do those books, measure odd or even in number." The person might reply, "I don't know." But I pressed that person further, saying, "surely you agree that the books must number odd or even?" And this person would reply, "yes." So I push more, asking, "do you believe they are even?" The person then says "no." So I say "ahh, so you believe they are odd." And again the person says no. This is because the person does not hold a belief either way. They are uncertain what to believe. This is the default position. But it may still be fairly categorized as not holding a belief. If however the person saw me putting some of the books in and believed me to have placed twenty books in the box they might say "I believe the books are even in number"

In this, we see that not believing the books are odd in number is different from believing the books are even. In this same manner, not believing God exists is different from believing God does not exist.
No difference I can see.
Hopefully, this is clear enough. If not, I will try again.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
What is the difference? Other than the phrasing? Does it? How? Why would they do that? Can you give a quote please? No difference I can see.
They would do that because they do not hold a belief either way. This is also why I brought up implicit atheists, implicit atheists cannot hold a belief either way. Their inability to believe extends to both the concept of a god existing or a god not existing. Similarly, the weak or negative atheist asserts nothing, they do not assert or accept that god does not exist. They are considered atheist by many because they reject the idea of God existing. That they also reject the idea of God not existing serves no matter in the discussion, they are termed atheist because of their lack of belief in God's existence and that they also do not believe in God's non existence does not matter for those who would call these people atheist.

Does this make sense now?
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
They would do that because they do not hold a belief either way. This is also why I brought up implicit atheists, implicit atheists cannot hold a belief either way. Their inability to believe extends to both the concept of a god existing or a god not existing. Similarly, the weak or negative atheist asserts nothing, they do not assert or accept that god does not exist. They are considered atheist by many because they reject the idea of God existing. That they also reject the idea of God not existing serves no matter in the discussion, they are termed atheist because of their lack of belief in God's existence and that they also do not believe in God's non existence does not matter for those who would call these people atheist.

Does this make sense now?
Sorry no, not really. How can they reject the idea of God existing and at the same time not believe in God's non-existence? That is absurd.
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What is the difference? Other than the phrasing?
Person1: "Do you believe that the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics is equivalent with multiverse cosmologies despite variant theories of both?"
Person2: "What? I have no idea what you are talking about."
Person1: "Ok, but do you believe what I said is true or not?"
Person2: "I can't believe in the truth of a proposition I can't evaluate given what I know."
Person1: "Atheist."
Alternatively, consider the assertion "This statement is false." What is your belief that this assertion is true or false?

Finally, consider the definition of "ambivalent", as given in e.g., the OED:
"Of, pertaining to, or characterized by ambivalence; having either or both of two contrary or parallel values, qualities or meanings; entertaining contradictory emotions (as love and hatred) towards the same person or thing; acting on or arguing for sometimes one and sometimes the other of two opposites; equivocal."

If one believes that X has the property P such that the property P' is mutually exclusive with P, then belief in P entails something about the belief in P'. It doesn't necessitate belief in its negation.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Not believing God exists means that one subjectively does not accept that god exists.

Believing God does not exist means that one accepts as true the proposition "God does not exist."

In the first we are talking about what a person rejects, does not accept, can not accept.

In the second we are talking about what a person accepts.

Accepting the idea that god does not exist, differs from an inability or refusal to accept the idea God exists. An example of this comes from the differentiation between negative atheists and positive atheists. The former deal with what they do not accept vs. The latter, whom deal with what the do believe.

If you were to ask a negative atheist, "do you believe in God?" They would say no. If you then said "ahh, then you believe God does not exist" they would say no.

Trying yet another way,

Imagine I had a box of books. And I asked someone "do those books, measure odd or even in number." The person might reply, "I don't know." But I pressed that person further, saying, "surely you agree that the books must number odd or even?" And this person would reply, "yes." So I push more, asking, "do you believe they are even?" The person then says "no." So I say "ahh, so you believe they are odd." And again the person says no. This is because the person does not hold a belief either way. They are uncertain what to believe. This is the default position. But it may still be fairly categorized as not holding a belief. If however the person saw me putting some of the books in and believed me to have placed twenty books in the box they might say "I believe the books are even in number"

In this, we see that not believing the books are odd in number is different from believing the books are even. In this same manner, not believing God exists is different from believing God does not exist.

Hopefully, this is clear enough. If not, I will try again.
Excellent post. I have no idea how Bunyip manages not to understand the point unless he's just trolling. If he didn't understand this I won't make any more efforts.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
They would do that because they do not hold a belief either way. This is also why I brought up implicit atheists, implicit atheists cannot hold a belief either way. Their inability to believe extends to both the concept of a god existing or a god not existing. Similarly, the weak or negative atheist asserts nothing, they do not assert or accept that god does not exist. They are considered atheist by many because they reject the idea of God existing. That they also reject the idea of God not existing serves no matter in the discussion, they are termed atheist because of their lack of belief in God's existence and that they also do not believe in God's non existence does not matter for those who would call these people atheist.

Does this make sense now?
It makes perfect sense.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Person1: "Do you believe that the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics is equivalent with multiverse cosmologies despite variant theories of both?"
Person2: "What? I have no idea what you are talking about."
Person1: "Ok, but do you believe what I said is true or not?"
Person2: "I can't believe in the truth of a proposition I can't evaluate given what I know."
Person1: "Atheist."
Alternatively, consider the assertion "This statement is false." What is your belief that this assertion is true or false?

Finally, consider the definition of "ambivalent", as given in e.g., the OED:
"Of, pertaining to, or characterized by ambivalence; having either or both of two contrary or parallel values, qualities or meanings; entertaining contradictory emotions (as love and hatred) towards the same person or thing; acting on or arguing for sometimes one and sometimes the other of two opposites; equivocal."

If one believes that X has the property P such that the property P' is mutually exclusive with P, then belief in P entails something about the belief in P'. It doesn't necessitate belief in its negation.
Sorry what? A person who does not believe in God, and person who believes there is no God hold the same position - both are atheist.
 
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Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Excellent post. I have no idea how Bunyip manages not to understand the point unless he's just trolling. If he didn't understand this I won't make any more efforts.
That is a breach of forum, rules. If you want me to clarify - ask.

And no I do not see any meaningful difference between believing God does not exist, and not believing God exists. Because there is no real difference. In practice, in a practical sense, in the real world - they are the same position. Both are positions we would classify as atheist.

A person who does not believe God exists is an atheist. A person who believes God does not exist is also an atheist. Why on earth is this so difficult to grasp?
All I see is a great deal of word play, going nowhere.
 
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