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The default position...

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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Sorry what? A person who does not believe in God, and person who believes there is no God hold the same position - both are atheist.
Do you believe in dammashuel? No, I didn't just make that word up, yes it's a real word, and yes it refers to something. However, I am willing to bet you have no idea what it refers to. So you can't honestly say that you believe it exists. However, because you don't actually know what it means, you can't say that you believe it doesn't exist (especially because, if you did know, you would).

In order to believe that there is no entity X, one must have a conception of what that entity is (by conception, I mean in that if one is capable of using the word "god", or "dammashuel, or "atheist", or heterological, or whatever the way you used words like "atheist", "person", "what", etc., above). If I ask you whether you believe in X or that X exists or that X has the property P, then you can only answer me if you have some conception of what I refer to by X (the way I do when you use the word "position" or the way you do when I use the word "person"). So when I ask you about your beliefs about something that you aren't familiar with, you can honestly say that you don't believe in it/about it/that it exists, but you can't honestly say you believe it doesn't exist, or isn't true, or that property P doesn't apply to it.

It actually does matter where the negation marker (formal or functional) goes.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What about the people who don't know whether there is an odd of even number?
I didn't Willa, you did. This is just silly.
It has been mathematically proven, just as much as 1+1=2, that
full
is equal to a specific value. As of yet, nobody knows what the value is. Ask any mathematician (or somebody with some basic knowledge of real analysis or advanced calculus) whether they believe the value exists, and they will say yes. Ask anybody, mathematician or no, what the value is and they won't be able to give you an answer.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Sorry, I don't see the relevance of the odd and even analogy - we are discussing a simple polarity, whether a specific entity exists or not. There are only two possible states; 1. The belief that God exists and 2. The lack of that belief.
Correct. But option 2 - lacking belief - is not the same as holding a positive belief in the non-existence of God. The odd/even analogy is used to illustrate that saying "not X" is not equal to saying "therefore Y", even if X and Y are mutually exclusive positions (just as a quantity of something is either even or odd and cannot be both or neither, God either exists or doesn't). By saying "I don't believe the number is even" I am not saying "the number is odd", even though that is the only other option. Belief is being withheld. In this analogy, not believing the quantity is even is analogous to atheism, as being an atheist only requires not believing in God, not the positive belief that God does not exist. However, both lack of belief and belief in God's nonexistence come under the heading of atheism. They aren't the same position, but they are both atheistic positions.

Sorry, that does not make sense to me - if you don't believe God exists, you therefore believe he does not exist. There is no third position.
Again, if you can understand why saying "I don't believe the number of grains of salt in the ocean is even" does not mean you must necessarily say "the number of grains of salt in the ocean is odd" - despite the fact that you would agree they are the only two possible options - then you should be able to understand how a person is capable of saying "I don't believe God exists, but I don't believe God does not exist".

To be honest, I think that the point people seem to be missing is that weak and strong atheists are not different groups, they are not exclusive categories. They are responses to different claims.
This is something I agree with and have addressed. Both positions are atheistic in that they both come under the heading of lacking a belief that God exists, and both address different claims.

Strong and weak atheism are frankly pretty silly and arbitrary distinctions, invented by Christian apologists in order to try to paint atheism into some kind of corner. The reality of course is that weak atheism is the stronger and more sustainable position, and strong atheism essentially a strawman. An atheist who says that there is no God is in reality no more making a knowledge claim than is the weak atheist - and the burden of proof, the rationale remains the same.
There is an extent to which I agree with you, and it's one of the reasons I argue so strongly for the broad definition of atheism in the majority of atheism/theism debates. There is a tendency in kinds of debates to frame the discussion in terms of a battle between two extremes, with a vast "neutral space" in between that people can escape to in order to evade the actual debate entirely. It's useful for some theists, because they can acknowledge their own position as being at one end of the scale while criticising atheists for doing the same (you see it all the time in many debates: "You have faith too", etc.), while people who are self-identified "non-theist-non-atheist-agnostics" can simply cast a wry eye on both sides of the debate and smirk at the apparent stupidity of these two "totally identical" sides. I see the debate merely as those who accept the proposition a God exists vs. those who do not, and I think it is more conductive to frame the debate in those terms not just for purposes of the null hypothesis, but also to close up that middle ground entirely.

However, I do also think there is room for discussion about positive claims of God's non-existence, which is a claim that should be addressed separately but is no less worthy of discussion. The claim that God does not exist still carries a burden, but it is a burden that should be met in any discussion in which that is the singular claim being addressed - not any discussion about God's existence rather than non-existence.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Do you believe in dammashuel? No, I didn't just make that word up, yes it's a real word, and yes it refers to something. However, I am willing to bet you have no idea what it refers to. So you can't honestly say that you believe it exists. However, because you don't actually know what it means, you can't say that you believe it doesn't exist (especially because, if you did know, you would).
Of course, but naturally - given that I have never heard of dammashuel I do not hold a belief in it. I am adammashuel.
In order to believe that there is no entity X, one must have a conception of what that entity is
Correct, so the default of disbelief stands.
(by conception, I mean in that if one is capable of using the word "god", or "dammashuel, or "atheist", or heterological, or whatever the way you used words like "atheist", "person", "what", etc., above). If I ask you whether you believe in X or that X exists or that X has the property P, then you can only answer me if you have some conception of what I refer to by X (the way I do when you use the word "position" or the way you do when I use the word "person"). So when I ask you about your beliefs about something that you aren't familiar with, you can honestly say that you don't believe in it/about it/that it exists, but you can't honestly say you believe it doesn't exist, or isn't true, or that property P doesn't apply to it.
So what? Sure, I don't believe in things I am unaware of - hence the default of disbelief.
It actually does matter where the negation marker (formal or functional) goes.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Correct. But option 2 - lacking belief - is not the same as holding a positive belief in the non-existence of God.
In practice it is the same. Both positions are atheist and both informed ajd justified by the same absence of evidence to challenge.
The odd/even analogy is used to illustrate that saying "not X" is not equal to saying "therefore Y", even if X and Y are mutually exclusive positions (just as a quantity of something is either even or odd and cannot be both or neither, God either exists or doesn't). By saying "I don't believe the number is even" I am not saying "the number is odd", even though that is the only other option. Belief is being withheld. In this analogy, not believing the quantity is even is analogous to atheism
Yes, so is the position of not knowing.
as being an atheist only requires not believing in God, not the positive belief that God does not exist.
But both are atheism.
However, both lack of belief and belief in God's nonexistence come under the heading of atheism. They aren't the same position, but they are both atheistic positions.


Again, if you can understand why saying "I don't believe the number of grains of salt in the ocean is even" does not mean you must necessarily say "the number of grains of salt in the ocean is odd" - despite the fact that you would agree they are the only two possible options
There are three options there - odd, even and don't know. With belief in god there are two options - belief, disbelief.
then you should be able to understand how a person is capable of saying "I don't believe God exists, but I don't believe God does not exist".
Sorry, but that still makes no sense to me. The first (I don't believe god exists) is atheist. The second (I don't believe god does not exist) is theist. They are mutually exclusive positions.
This is something I agree with and have addressed. Both positions are atheistic in that they both come under the heading of lacking a belief that God exists, and both address different claims.


There is an extent to which I agree with you, and it's one of the reasons I argue so strongly for the broad definition of atheism in the majority of atheism/theism debates. There is a tendency in kinds of debates to frame the discussion in terms of a battle between two extremes, with a vast "neutral space" in between that people can escape to in order to evade the actual debate entirely. It's useful for some theists, because they can acknowledge their own position as being at one end of the scale while criticising atheists for doing the same (you see it all the time in many debates: "You have faith too", etc.), while people who are self-identified "non-theist-non-atheist-agnostics" can simply cast a wry eye on both sides of the debate and smirk at the apparent stupidity of these two "totally identical" sides. I see the debate merely as those who accept the proposition a God exists vs. those who do not, and I think it is more conductive to frame the debate in those terms not just for purposes of the null hypothesis, but also to close up that middle ground entirely.
Yes, thankyou - that is essentially what I am arguing.
However, I do also think there is room for discussion about positive claims of God's non-existence, which is a claim that should be addressed separately but is no less worthy of discussion. The claim that God does not exist still carries a burden, but it is a burden that should be met in any discussion in which that is the singular claim being addressed - not any discussion about God's existence rather than non-existence.
Sure, but that burden is met in exactly the sake way as the negative claim - there is no evidence to challenge, so it is a justifiable assumption.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
There are three options there - odd, even and don't know. With belief in god there are two options - belief, disbelief.
With belief in god there are three options: Believing god exists (odd), believing god doesn't exist (even) believing neither (don't know).
 
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Bunyip

pro scapegoat
With belief in god there are three options: Believing god exists (odd), believing god doesn't exist (even) believing neither (don't know).
Yes, and the don't knows are atheist - they don't believe in God. So two of those are atheist and one theist. As I said - a polarity.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Yes, and the don't knows are atheist - they don't believe in God. So two of those are atheist and one theist. As I said - a polarity.
You said there were two options with belief. There are three. Like with odd, even and don't know. Like I just showed you.
 

Deathbydefault

Apistevist Asexual Atheist
So after what one might call "intensive research" I have come to this conclusion...

Anyone who does not have a direct belief in God is considered to have a lack of belief in God. (Doesn't matter which God of course).
We all know where "lack of belief" is categorized.

There ya go folks.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Yes, that is correct.
The don't know's are atheist. They do not believe. There are two categories - those who believe (theists) and everyone else.
And everyone else are divided into those who just don't believe either way and those who also believes god doesn't exist.
 

Deathbydefault

Apistevist Asexual Atheist
Bunyip is correct here, it is a polarity.
You are either a theist or atheist, there is no in between.

If you lack a belief,direct or indirect, you apply within atheism.
Time to get over it.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Bunyip is correct here, it is a polarity.
You are either a theist or atheist, there is no in between.

If you lack a belief,direct or indirect, you apply within atheism.
Time to get over it.

1. Theist (Believes god exists)
2. Atheist (Doesn't believe god exists)

1. Theist (Believes god exists)
2. Weak atheist (Believes neither 1 nor 3)
3. Strong atheist (Believes god doesn't exist)

Both are correct.
 

Deathbydefault

Apistevist Asexual Atheist
1. Theist (Believes god exists)
2. Atheist (Doesn't believe god exists)

1. Theist (Believes god exists)
2. Weak atheist (Believes neither 1 nor 3)
3. Strong atheist (Believes god doesn't exist)

Both are correct.

Ya know theism is the namepeice for referencing all religions.
Wouldn't it make sense to assign atheism (dictionary atheism) as the namepeice for all non-theism?

Also strong atheism categorizes within what is defined as weak atheism, so that point is invalid.
They are both anti-theistic so they both categorize with anti-theism, with atheism.

[Edit] Actually I explained that in the post you just replied to...
Direct- strong atheism
indirect - weak atheism

either way it's still atheism
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Bunyip is correct here, it is a polarity.
You are either a theist or atheist, there is no in between.
Polytheist, deist, agnostic, etc., but sure, just making unsubstantiated claims based on clearly flawed logic is the way to go.

If you lack a belief,direct or indirect, you apply within atheism.
Why is it that the phrase "lack a [any] belief" is somehow basically exclusively used to refer to new atheists who are so desperate to abandon the tradition of past atheists for whom this was an intellectual, philosophical, and epistemic stance that they abandon arguments in place of a petty claim to a "default" position which can't be true based upon neuroscience research (not to mention the cognitive science of religion)? Everybody "lacks a belief" about infinitely many things, as to "lack a belief" merely requires not knowing anything about. Atheists don't "lack a belief". It's quite literally impossible to do this (take a look at some neuroimaging data here).

Time to get over it.
I would, but now scientific research on religious is so advanced it's spilling over into popular works:
McCauley, R. N. (2011). Why Religion is Natural and Science is Not. Oxford University Press.

But that's at best semi-popular science garbage. I'm sure you'd prefer the actual science. See attached.
 

Attachments

  • Religion is natural.pdf
    76.1 KB · Views: 126
  • Functional neuroimaging of belief, disbelief, and uncertainty.pdf
    504 KB · Views: 223
  • What are atheists for- Hypotheses on the functions of non-belief in the evolution of religion.pdf
    432.2 KB · Views: 76
  • Religion is Natural Atheism is not.pdf
    251.8 KB · Views: 93
  • Being human- Religion Bound to believe.pdf
    649.2 KB · Views: 76
  • Foxhole atheism, revisited.pdf
    226.2 KB · Views: 111

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Ya know theism is the namepeice for referencing all religions.
No religions are referenced. Theism is a belief in god(s).
Wouldn't it make sense to assign atheism (dictionary atheism) as the namepeice for all non-theism?
Non-theism is atheism.
Also strong atheism categorizes within what is defined as weak atheism
Of course it doesn't hence naming them strong and weak to distinguish them.
They are both anti-theistic
No they aren't only strong is.
 

Deathbydefault

Apistevist Asexual Atheist
This why I didn't want to get in this debate.
It really is quite simple.

If you do not believe in God(s) you lack a belief, that includes the "I don't know" statement.
If you lack a belief in God(s) then you are considered an atheist.

You can't "kinda believe" and "kinda disbelieve".
Absolutely illogical.

Theism works this way as well, as it only relates to those believing in God(s).
Anyone who does not have a God belief is not a theist.

Atheism applies to all the ideologies that believe in spirits and crap but not God.
If you believe in a God(s) you cannot be an atheist.
If you lack a belief in God(s) you cannot be a theist.

It's pretty freaking simple.

As much as it may seem like it, I am not trying to force the title "atheist" onto anyone.
You simply are what you are in this case, you don't have to identify by it.
 

Deathbydefault

Apistevist Asexual Atheist
Sure. Just like whether there exists intelligent life on other planets. Either there is, or there isn't. So the chances are 1/2.

Everything is simple if your only analytical tools are simplistic.

I believe the chances are quite a bit larger than "1/2" for there being other life in the universe.
I actually think that the chances of there not being other life out there is nearly 0%
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
I would, but now scientific research on religious is so advanced it's spilling over into popular works:
McCauley, R. N. (2011). Why Religion is Natural and Science is Not. Oxford University Press.

But that's at best semi-popular science garbage. I'm sure you'd prefer the actual science. See attached.
Could you point out exactly where it says that we are born believing in god(s)?
 
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