The Demise of Religion

[URAVIP2ME]

Jesus was a Hellenized Jew. All his quotes from the 4 Gospels came from the Septuagint instead of the Hebrew Bible. Only a few passages in Mathew are from the Hebrew Text. Most likely because Mathew was translated into Hebrew from Greek early on. A Hebrew Jew would use the Hebrew text and would never use the Septuagint.

Matthew first wrote his gospel account in Hebrew before it was then later translated into Greek. ( The common Greek: Koine)
Eusebius quoted Papias as stating " Matthew collected the oracles in the Hebrew language" - The Ecclesiastical History, III, xxxix, 16
See also: The Ecclesiastical History, VI, xxx,3-6. First written... according to Matthew.... in the Hebrew language.
Matthew's account was primarily written with the Jews in mind, thus his gospel account shows Jesus is their foretold Messiah.
Jesus often prefaced his statements with the words, "It is written". That meant already written down in the old Hebrew Scriptures.
Jews used the Hebrew text. Compare Jesus' reference between Luke 4:16-20 and Isaiah 61:1-3
Please also notice Isaiah 61:1 mentions humble meek people.
Now compare what Jesus said at Matthew 5:5 when Jesus referred to Psalms 37:11; Psalms 37:29.

 

[Sundance]

To bring this thread back on track, I honestly think that to expect the demise of religion in general is quite foolish, a waste of time. Religions aren't going anywhere anytime soon, so all of us should just accept their presence in the world.

 

[LASTINGLIGHT]

Textural scholars agree that all the books of the new testament were originally written in Greek. All of the oldest fragments of the new testament we have are in Greek. They also agree that Mark's gospel was written before the others, and Luke and Mathew used it as a source for parts of their own gospels. These are scientists and historians who study the facts. The facts are that even in Matthew Jesus still quotes parts of the Septuagint. Eusebius has been proven wrong on many of the things he commented on. He also stated---"How it may be lawful and fitting to use falsehood as a medicine, and for the benefit of those who want to be deceived". This is what is turning many off from the "classic Christian church". The great divide in what people have been told about the history of Christianity and the truth that we are uncovering using science. There are also people out on the internet trying to say that the Septuagint wasn't written until after the death of Jesus. We have carbon dated and textual dated remnants older than that. How do they explain that? They don't. The internet makes it much easier to find the truth. A rock is a rock, no matter how many people you can convince that it is not.

 

[JoStories]

Even today many Navajo Native Americans have embraced Christianity. People of all cultures, or from cultural bias, have taken up being part of the ' spiritual nation ' of 1 Peter 2:5; 1 Peter 2:9. A spiritual nation not found or located on any map. People in all countries and nations have taken up following Jesus leaving their former beliefs behind.

If a NA chooses to follow your faith, that is their choice. No one would fault them for that. However, many NA don't. My meemaw (grandmother) did not follow your faith but my mother does. I don't follow your faith, I am on a Buddhist path. And as another thread indicated, all faiths today are declining in general, or at least the organized religions. Christianity is one of those that has declined dramatically. I don;t see that as a good thing, at least religions in general and not specifically yours, but I do think embracing a more ubiquitous path to God is a good thing. Living by a book no longer entices a lot of people.

 

[JoStories]

The Constitution of the Mosaic Law was to read. It was not written so as Not to be read.
Jesus supported his teachings with a reference to Scripture
What was Jesus' message about the written word at Deuteronomy 8:3 and Matthew 4:4 ?
Didn't Jesus himself find or locate the place where it was written in the 61st chapter of Isaiah at Luke 4:17 ?
Their lives were built or centered around the Gamla Synagogues where they all read Scripture.
How were those synagogues built without being able to read ?
Windows, doors, furniture, etc. would have been made of wood.

This is still not proof. I was asking for historical proof that one can point to. As a theologian, there is no proof anyway that he could read and even his existence is hotly contested. The Bible, while an important book, is not proof of anything as the NT was written long after the demise of Christ. Unless you can prove historically that he could read, your opinion is just conjecture and opinion.

 

[JoStories]

Absolutely right ^above ^.
Even starting in the account about Adam and Eve they were Not made/forced to observe religious law " Do Not eat........... ".
To force someone, or try to force someone, would just make a person a bully.
God was Not a Bully forcing either angelic creation or human creation to love and serve Him.

You don;t see telling a man to sacrifice his son is not bullying? Or destroying children (first born of all Egyptians) as monstrous or the town of Sodom? This is presuming that this is true at all, mind. Or requiring that all gay men be killed or adulterous women stoned? And so on. This, IMO, are not the actions of a loving God.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

You don;t see telling a man to sacrifice his son is not bullying? Or destroying children (first born of all Egyptians) as monstrous or the town of Sodom? This is presuming that this is true at all, mind. Or requiring that all gay men be killed or adulterous women stoned? And so on. This, IMO, are not the actions of a loving God.

Yipes! First of all, Jesus came to us of his own accord. God sent Jesus because Jesus wanted to come - Proverbs 8:31 B

Does a bully give choices ?_____ God did Not force or bully Satan and Adam to be law breakers .

By God NOT letting Abraham ( Isaac did Not fight back ) go through with the sacrifice was showing us just how strong Abraham's faith was in the resurrection promise. Abraham was told the promised ' seed ' (Messiah ) would come through Isaac. Isaac would have to be alive in order to produce that offspring or seed leading up to Jesus as Christ. So, a dead Isaac would have to be brought back to life.

Parents are responsible for minor children - 1 Corinthians 7:14 - and we can Not read hearts (innermost person ) but God can and He knows when people have reached the point of no return ( no repentance ).

We are Not under the Constitution of the Mosaic Law. That Law was only for one nation and that one nation was the nation of ancient Israel. No other nation. Now God will be judging the marriage bed - Hebrews 13:4.

There are two types of sin: Sin is either on purpose or not, premeditated or nor, by accident or not, willful or not.

Just as Noah warned the people in advance - 2 Peter 2:5 - today people are forewarned to repent or perish (be destroyed ) 2 Peter 3:9
God wants us to choose life ( live forever ) over being destroyed - Deuteronomy 30:19

 

[URAVIP2ME]

This is still not proof. I was asking for historical proof that one can point to. As a theologian, there is no proof anyway that he could read and even his existence is hotly contested. The Bible, while an important book, is not proof of anything as the NT was written long after the demise of Christ. Unless you can prove historically that he could read, your opinion is just conjecture and opinion.

Didn't Josephus believe Jesus existed ?
Isn't the Bible a history book?
Didn't people in the first century use a wax-coated framed wooden board to write on with a stylus ?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Christianity is one of those that has declined dramatically. I don't see that as a good thing, at least religions in general and not specifically yours, but I do think embracing a more ubiquitous path to God is a good thing. Living by a book no longer entices a lot of people.

Years ago they used to say the one who was a slave to his compass ruled the seas.
The one who serves God and Jesus encompasses true or genuine self-sacrificing love leading to living forever.
Yes, ' so-called Christianity ' is declining or drying up spiritually - Revelation 16:12; Revelation 17:1 B; Revelation 17:15
Jesus forewarned MANY would come ' in his name ' but prove false - Matthew chapter 7.
The restless sea of wicked mankind - Isaiah 57:20 - keeps on churning.
Judgment starts with the religious ' House of God ' 1 Peter 4:17 - with those claiming to be Christian.
Jesus will prove to be the New Broom, so to speak, that sweeps the ' house ' clean - Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:11; Revelation 19:15

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Since judgment starts with the religious ' house of God ' - 1 Peter 4:17 - then it should Not surprise anyone that Christendom (so-called Christianity ) will be the first under attack.

First?

*blinks*

Nevermind. I'm sure the answer will just confuse me.

 

[JoStories]

Yipes! First of all, Jesus came to us of his own accord. God sent Jesus because Jesus wanted to come - Proverbs 8:31 B

Does a bully give choices ?_____ God did Not force or bully Satan and Adam to be law breakers .

By God NOT letting Abraham ( Isaac did Not fight back ) go through with the sacrifice was showing us just how strong Abraham's faith was in the resurrection promise. Abraham was told the promised ' seed ' (Messiah ) would come through Isaac. Isaac would have to be alive in order to produce that offspring or seed leading up to Jesus as Christ. So, a dead Isaac would have to be brought back to life.

Parents are responsible for minor children - 1 Corinthians 7:14 - and we can Not read hearts (innermost person ) but God can and He knows when people have reached the point of no return ( no repentance ).

We are Not under the Constitution of the Mosaic Law. That Law was only for one nation and that one nation was the nation of ancient Israel. No other nation. Now God will be judging the marriage bed - Hebrews 13:4.
you
There are two types of sin: Sin is either on purpose or not, premeditated or nor, by accident or not, willful or not.

Just as Noah warned the people in advance - 2 Peter 2:5 - today people are forewarned to repent or perish (be destroyed ) 2 Peter 3:9
God wants us to choose life ( live forever ) over being destroyed - Deuteronomy 30:19

The problem with all of what you say here is that Christians continue to cherry pick what they wish to say was fulfilled and what was not. Christians continue to say that homosexuality is a grievous sin, for example, yet as you say, you are NOT under that constitution. Christ never spoke about the issue. The one and only thing he did was was about a man and a woman. He never said anything about gay couples. Paul intimated it but Paul was not Christ and he never met Christ. I don't believe an hallucination constitutes meeting anyone.
And as for the two types of sin you mention, you don't see this as having to hop from one foot to the other trying to live up to unreasonable ideals? Its either on purpose or non, as you say which means that you might not even know you are doing something wrong. Where is the joy in that? How does that help you when you live in fear of offending your God? I don;t have that concern as God, for me, only wants me to live up to MY ideals, and those are strictly Buddhist in nature, which means no harm, etc. Even if I do harm, it does not offend God, it only means I have to learn the lesson from that. In essence, you have not proven to me that the idea of God for you is not a bully.

 

[JoStories]

Didn't Josephus believe Jesus existed ?
Isn't the Bible a history book?
Didn't people in the first century use a wax-coated framed wooden board to write on with a stylus ?

1. Josephus was written well beyond the time of Christ.. roughly 95 CE. Now, there are only 2 references to the man Jesus and further, most scholars agree that this document was altered after its writing to help the advent of Christianity along. IE: the RCC. Only two items of the text are considered authentic, that being the reference of Jesus' brother and the death of John the Baptist. Please remember that I hold a PhD in theology.
2. Yes, the Bible is considered an historical book but one that has passed through so many hands and through so many translations as to be a vague image of what might have been the original. Furthermore, because the original was written in several languages: Aramaic, Ancient Kione Greek, Hebrew, etc, the translations are rough at best. Oft times, the words have no understandable translation. So do we assume that the earth is really 6 thousand years old? Or the other obvious mistakes contained therein?.
3. The only people with a stylus, etc, were the learned. The aristocrats and teachers. Jesus, if he lived, was a blue collar worker and those people did not learn to read.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

First?
*blinks*
Nevermind. I'm sure the answer will just confuse me.

I'd like to take the liberty to reply and hopefully not be too confusing.
In a nut shell, by stating ' first ', of course, means more to follow.

The spiritual ' House of God ' would be God's ' House of Worship'. 1 Peter 4:17-18
Each ( or most ) claim their ' house ' ( temple, church, etc. ) is the right place to worship.
' Christendom' ( so-called Christian ) claims to be God's righteous ' house '
So, God's judgment will start, be first, ' house cleaning ' with ' Christendom '.
In the year 70 God used the Roman armies as His ' arm of the law ' to go up ' house cleaning ' against apostate Jerusalem.
Apostate Jerusalem felt secure that she had God's protection and blessing after the Roman' earlier retreated in the year 66.
' Christendom' for the most part has church traditions or customs Not found in Scripture but teaches them as being Scripture.
Since those claiming to be Christian are ' first on the judgment list ', then, after God judges Christendom, the rest of the world's religious groups will be judged. According to the illustration of Matthew 25:31-32 all people will symbolically be separated as being either humble ' sheep' or haughty ' goats '.
- 1 Peter 5:6-8

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The problem with all of what you say here is that Christians continue to cherry pick what they wish to say was fulfilled and what was not. Christians continue to say that homosexuality is a grievous sin, for example, yet as you say, you are NOT under that constitution. Christ never spoke about the issue. The one and only thing he did was was about a man and a woman. He never said anything about gay couples. Paul intimated it but Paul was not Christ and he never met Christ. I don't believe an hallucination constitutes meeting anyone.
And as for the two types of sin you mention, you don't see this as having to hop from one foot to the other trying to live up to unreasonable ideals? Its either on purpose or non, as you say which means that you might not even know you are doing something wrong. Where is the joy in that? How does that help you when you live in fear of offending your God? I don't have that concern as God, for me, only wants me to live up to MY ideals, and those are strictly Buddhist in nature, which means no harm, etc. Even if I do harm, it does not offend God, it only means I have to learn the lesson from that. In essence, you have not proven to me that the idea of God for you is not a bully.

'Fear' of offending? Does a loving child have ' reverential fear ' of displeasing a loving parent ?
We are Not to be frightened of our loving Heavenly Father, but have ' reverential fear ' of displeasing Him.
We all make mistakes, but Jesus' ransom for us fills in the ' gaps ', so to speak ' - 1 John 1:7; Matthew 20:28

You are right Jesus never mentioned ' gays ' but Jesus did Not approve of fornication.
Anyone not following Jesus ' standard of Matthew 19:9; Genesis 2:24 would be fornicating.
So, it is the 'practice' of fornication which was wrong in the eyes of Christ Jesus.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

1. Josephus was written well beyond the time of Christ.. roughly 95 CE. Now, there are only 2 references to the man Jesus and further, most scholars agree that this document was altered after its writing to help the advent of Christianity along. IE: the RCC. Only two items of the text are considered authentic, that being the reference of Jesus' brother and the death of John the Baptist. Please remember that I hold a PhD in theology.
2. Yes, the Bible is considered an historical book but one that has passed through so many hands and through so many translations as to be a vague image of what might have been the original. Furthermore, because the original was written in several languages: Aramaic, Ancient Kione Greek, Hebrew, etc, the translations are rough at best. Oft times, the words have no understandable translation. So do we assume that the earth is really 6 thousand years old? Or the other obvious mistakes contained therein?.
3. The only people with a stylus, etc, were the learned. The aristocrats and teachers. Jesus, if he lived, was a blue collar worker and those people did not learn to read.

Thank you for your reply.
Where is there in Genesis saying 6,000 years ?
Isn't Genesis more about getting the earth ready for mankind to inhabit earth ?
Is there anything to indicate that each of the creative days were even of the same or differing lengths of time ?
At Genesis 2:4 aren't all of the ' creative days ' summed up by the single word ' day ' ?
Thus, in Scripture can't the word ' day ' have shades of meaning ?
Even as in our day we speak of grandfather's day as being more than a 24 hour day.

 

[JoStories]

Fear' of offending? Does a loving child have ' reverential fear ' of displeasing a loving parent ?
We are Not to be frightened of our loving Heavenly Father, but have ' reverential fear ' of displeasing Him.
We all make mistakes, but Jesus' ransom for us fills in the ' gaps ', so to speak ' - 1 John 1:7; Matthew 20:28

You are right Jesus never mentioned ' gays ' but Jesus did Not approve of fornication.
Anyone not following Jesus ' standard of Matthew 19:9; Genesis 2:24 would be fornicating.
So, it is the 'practice' of fornication which was wrong in the eyes of Christ Jesus.[/QUOTE/]

Umm...unless you live in the dark ages dear, people of all faiths have been doing this for ages. What does that have to do with being gay? Particularly since they want to get married and hence, would NOT be fornicating.

 

[JoStories]

Thank you for your reply.
Where is there in Genesis saying 6,000 years ?
Isn't Genesis more about getting the earth ready for mankind to inhabit earth ?
Is there anything to indicate that each of the creative days were even of the same or differing lengths of time ?
At Genesis 2:4 aren't all of the ' creative days ' summed up by the single word ' day ' ?
Thus, in Scripture can't the word ' day ' have shades of meaning ?
Even as in our day we speak of grandfather's day as being more than a 24 hour day.

Tell that to the creationists who do believe the world is 6 thousand years old based on the Bible.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I'd like to take the liberty to reply and hopefully not be too confusing.
In a nut shell, by stating ' first ', of course, means more to follow.

The spiritual ' House of God ' would be God's ' House of Worship'. 1 Peter 4:17-18
Each ( or most ) claim their ' house ' ( temple, church, etc. ) is the right place to worship.
' Christendom' ( so-called Christian ) claims to be God's righteous ' house '
So, God's judgment will start, be first, ' house cleaning ' with ' Christendom '.
In the year 70 God used the Roman armies as His ' arm of the law ' to go up ' house cleaning ' against apostate Jerusalem.
Apostate Jerusalem felt secure that she had God's protection and blessing after the Roman' earlier retreated in the year 66.
' Christendom' for the most part has church traditions or customs Not found in Scripture but teaches them as being Scripture.
Since those claiming to be Christian are ' first on the judgment list ', then, after God judges Christendom, the rest of the world's religious groups will be judged. According to the illustration of Matthew 25:31-32 all people will symbolically be separated as being either humble ' sheep' or haughty ' goats '.
- 1 Peter 5:6-8

What is your understanding of the base causes of the Siege of Jerusalem, or are these unimportant in your view?
Trying to work out if we have common ground for a discussion, or whether our world views are too different and we'd be talking past one another.

 

[JoStories]

Thank you for your reply.
Where is there in Genesis saying 6,000 years ?
Isn't Genesis more about getting the earth ready for mankind to inhabit earth ?
Is there anything to indicate that each of the creative days were even of the same or differing lengths of time ?
At Genesis 2:4 aren't all of the ' creative days ' summed up by the single word ' day ' ?
Thus, in Scripture can't the word ' day ' have shades of meaning ?
Even as in our day we speak of grandfather's day as being more than a 24 hour day.

I want to apologize for my post from last night, it was rude and uncalled for. Now, yes, you are correct here of course. But many do believe the world is 6 thousand years old and refuse to acknowledge fossil evidence, etc, stating it as being created by scientists to further an atheistic POV. And many other inconsistencies exist in the Bible to render it not an historical book. That , of course, doesn't diminish its value. Yet, you did not remark on the other points I made Uravip2me. Do you have thoughts on those

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What is your understanding of the base causes of the Siege of Jerusalem, or are these unimportant in your view?
Trying to work out if we have common ground for a discussion, or whether our world views are too different and we'd be talking past one another.

I am sure the Romans had their reasons for their actions.
Even while Jesus was on earth there were factions or issues between the Jews and Romans. What was Josephus' reasoning ?
From a biblical view those people in Jerusalem became apostate, thus their ' spiritual house ' was abandoned by God.
- Matthew 23:37-38

All causes can be important to me because besides apostate Jerusalem in the year 70, back in Ezekiel's day - Ezekiel 8:16 - those people also became apostate to the point they had ' sun ' worship in God's ' house of worship '.

Because in the past God used the political/military to act against those apostates, then there is good reason that God will once again use the political/military to go up against run-afoul religious groups. This time emcompassing the whole world.
The United Nations see a hauntingly dangerous religious climate brewing in today's world. With backing the UN can be strengthened to become God's modern day ' long arm of the law ' to carry out His justice on all those playing false to God and His Word.