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The denial of the pecking order is folly

blackout

Violet.
Hey, whaddya think of this?

Grocery store - customer stands, clerk stands

Makeup counter at Saks Fifth Avenue - customer stands, clerk stands

Bank - customer stands, teller stands

Water company - customers stands, clerk stands

Wal Mart - customer stands, clerk stands

ABC Auto Parts - customer stands, clerk stands

Hastings - customer stands, clerk stands

McDonalds - customer stands, clerk stands

Loan company - customer sits, employee sits

Edward Jones - customer sits, broker sits

Nail salon - customer sits, nail tech sits

Title company - customer sits, title clerk sits

I could go on but I'm getting bored.

WHAT DO ALL THESE THINGS MEAN???? WHAT SUBTLE SOCIETAL MESSAGE IS BEING FORCED DOWN OUR THROATS IN THESE SCENARIOS?


All this standing and sitting brings me back to my days as a Roman Catholic.
*wonders.... what workers kneel?....*

Still I think you have conveniently... and intentionally...
left out Watiers and Waitresses Kathryn.

I agree with nnmartin!
What right do Diners (restaurant customers) have to sit
while their Waiters and Waitresses
(now Insidiously called 'servers')
not only have to stand, but run around!

Honestly, If restaurant patrons INSIST on sitting,
then their servers should be equipt with motorized serverchairs.


They can just triple the price of the entrees
to cover the added cost to the restaurant.
Serves those snot nosed customers right for not standing while they order and eat!
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
WHO is not BOTH a customer AND an employee/worker?
You speak as if there are TWO truly separate groups of people.
'The customers' and/Vrs 'The workers'.

HINT: Where do customers/consumers get the money they spend....

Right on. The vast majority of customers are also workers.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
all this standing and sitting brings me back to my days as a roman catholic.
*wonders.... What workers kneel?....*

still i think you have conveniently... And intentionally...
Left out watiers and waitresses kathryn.

I agree with nnmartin!
What right do diners (restaurant customers) have to sit
while their waiters and waitresses
(now insidiously called 'servers')
not only have to stand, but run around!

Honestly, if restaurant patrons insist on sitting,
then their servers should be equipt with motorized serverchairs.


they can just triple the price of the entrees
to cover the added cost to the restaurant.
Serves those snot nosed customers right for not standing while they order and eat!

right on~!:d
 

blackout

Violet.
And the freiking worst of all....

massage.

You get to LIE DOWN while your worker stands.

What's with that?!


And surgeons! and dentists! Standing! While their patients are comfortably knocked out on the table!

It's invasive. and only getting worse.
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
We are all only truly happy when we can elevate ourselves over others.

In the secular world this usually comes down to financial status, job, position at work and postcode.

Why do people always ask you 'so what do you do for a living?' as soon as they feel they are able to.

The answer is to see whether you are above them or below them and then how to act accordingly.

Why do people ask you what your religion or denomination is?

again, this is to see if they are above or below you in their sense of the hierarchy of man.

Why do people oppose certain forms of poor relief yet happily donate to 3rd World nations - again this is to make them feel good about themselves whilst keeping the nearby poor in their own countries at a significant disadvantage to themselves and thus maintain their own Lordship status.

We all think we are God and conflicts always arise when our Godhood status is threatened or there is a misunderstanding about who is above who in the order of status.

Thus all mainstream religions are doomed - as we can never let go of our supposed positions - this even happens within families.

Children are always supposed to be respectful of their parents regardless, this is even one of the biblical Commandments.

So is there a way to transcend this human failing?
There is one flaw in assuming that hierarchy is an innately human attribute, and it can often be found in the works of anthropologists who specialize in studying pre-agricultural hunter/gatherer (if there are any left) peoples who made up most of the evolutionary history of what is that has made us human.

Hunter/gatherers had to emphasize cooperation/ not competition of today's increasingly aggressive capitalist societies. Even among the men of a tribe, there was little to signify status or some sort of hierarchy when everything has to be picked up and moved to a new location in search of food. So, there was little incentive to acquire possessions and no incentive to try to claim land. Hierarchies among the women of the tribe were primarily based on age and acquired knowledge...pretty much the same for a hierarchy of the males, except that hunting skill would be a big factor if hunting large game was a major part of their lives.

To sum it up, those early hunter/gatherer societies from which we've taken our genetic heritage were socialistic, egalitarian societies. They had no need to be concerned about "incentives" or concern for anyone not working, since the community was small enough to eliminate any "free rider" problems that game theorists often tell us are essential for creating rewards and punishments.

The pecking order is certainly a foundation of the modern world, and it is a source of aberration, not something that should be encouraged. In highly income stratified societies (the way most of the world is going these days) hierarchies become more and more important. And social cohesion declines as greater divisions decrease the numbers of people we could regard as peers. Instead we are on a ladder, and would like to move up higher, but a lot of our natural human tendency is to attack and try to kick off those we see as beneath us in the pecking order. For more on an exhaustive worldwide list of collated studies of the effects of income stratification on a whole variety of social measures, go to the Equality Trust project started by Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett a few years ago.

And we can witness how politicians and opinion-formers on the political right - who consider the hierarchy a social value - divert attention from rampant and in many cases even - illegal - acquisition of wealth and protection for ill-gotten gains by using that natural human tendency to try to push others down rather than act collectively against the relatively few wealthy and powerful in modern societies. They do it by using race, religion, ethnicity, immigration, or social programs that are still left for the poor. And I don't need to add, that they are usually successful in this strategy...even in societies that have turned dystopian in their decline in general, overall wealth and living standards. Societies in decline usually turn into fascisms not communisms...as we here so much of from the right! So today, when I look at where North America is heading, I see us already sliding into fascism, not communism! And I don't hold out much hope for the kickback from the left -- such as the Occupy movements that have started. If there was a groundswell of support from young people who have had their futures obliterated before their eyes, I would give it a chance. But the reality is that young people today, who have grown up without any living memory of what it was like before the middle class and unions started to disappear are even more materialistic, hedonistic and focused on their own desires than any generation before them. They are compartmentalized by the technology (I don't consider cell phones and Facebook etc. to be real community), the increasing emphasis on social status at younger and younger ages....helped along by the mind-numbing brainwashing of modern media that has created a seamless blend of "content" and advertising and product promotion. So, I see no relief from the increasingly ruthless pecking order, although if I come across any hopeful news, I'll be the first to jump on board!
 

nnmartin

Well-Known Member

I agree with nnmartin!
What right do Diners (restaurant customers) have to sit
while their Waiters and Waitresses
(now Insidiously called 'servers')
not only have to stand, but run around!

This is a key fact here.

Namely, that waiters are now called 'servers'.

This just sums it all up - management and owners will do anything to make that extra buck , even changing the name of the position to server, a name with a much greater connotation of subservience.

Why is everyone defending this insidious return to the days of the past? - we must call it neo-feudalism from now on, because that is what is gradually approaching.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
This just sums it all up - management and owners will do anything to make that extra buck , even changing the name of the position to server, a name with a much greater connotation of subservience.
I'm curious. What was your management style at your business?
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
Hey, whaddya think of this?

Grocery store - customer stands, clerk stands

Makeup counter at Saks Fifth Avenue - customer stands, clerk stands

Bank - customer stands, teller stands

Water company - customers stands, clerk stands

Wal Mart - customer stands, clerk stands

ABC Auto Parts - customer stands, clerk stands

Hastings - customer stands, clerk stands

McDonalds - customer stands, clerk stands

Loan company - customer sits, employee sits

Edward Jones - customer sits, broker sits

Nail salon - customer sits, nail tech sits

Title company - customer sits, title clerk sits

I could go on but I'm getting bored.

WHAT DO ALL THESE THINGS MEAN???? WHAT SUBTLE SOCIETAL MESSAGE IS BEING FORCED DOWN OUR THROATS IN THESE SCENARIOS?

The OP is completely unimportant unless it answers all of this as well. Each one of them.
 

nnmartin

Well-Known Member
Societies in decline usually turn into fascisms not communisms...as we here so much of from the right! So today, when I look at where North America is heading, I see us already sliding into fascism, not communism!

. But the reality is that young people today, who have grown up without any living memory of what it was like before the middle class and unions started to disappear are even more materialistic, hedonistic and focused on their own desires than any generation before them. They are compartmentalized by the technology (I don't considhopeful news, I'll be the first to jump on board!

that is a very good post and I agree wholeheartedly:)
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
that is a very good post and I agree wholeheartedly:)
Thanks, I'm glad you liked it. I was trying to add a few things I've been reading from anthropology and related social sciences in the last year, which indicate that the development of social hierarchies are recent adaptations that didn't occur before the Agricultural Revolution made staying in one place and accumulating possessions, and claiming sections of land a possibility to start with. Even after farming and the early city-states began, they were not all hierarchical as in Sumeria. The Harappan communities of the Indus River civilization were egalitarian by contrast. The major cities like Harappa and Mohenjo Daro, had sophisticated, well-planned towns that included brick-lined sewage drainage systems. Houses were made of brick, and all built of equal size and following the same plan. No buildings have been found in these cities that would have been palaces for kings or temples for priests. Likewise, there are no monuments either; and the large buildings that existed were purely functional -- such as granaries, warehouses, and public baths.

It's a shame that comparatively little is known of the culture of these communities - compared with Sumeria. There are so many questions that have to go unanswered: such as how and why did all the Harappan city-states follow the same egalitarian model of organization, where there was no kings or royalty, and everyone in the community was considered equal? How did they prevent conflict between the cities, and not have to raise up armies to fight each other without any form of central government controlling them? Or, maybe we should ask: why was Sumeria so aggressive, violent and destructive, when they appeared to have everything they needed to thrive as well as the Harappans?

So, there is nothing innately human about organizing in a hierarchal manner. Nor should it be considered the optimal way of organizing a society....like too many frequent posters here keep telling us....but these are mostly people who don't want to think too deeply about anything, and just assume that the way things are now, are the way things ought to be.
 

nnmartin

Well-Known Member
Even after farming and the early city-states began, they were not all hierarchical as in Sumeria.

It's a shame that comparatively little is known of the culture of these communities - compared with Sumeria. There are so many questions that have to go unanswered: such as how and why did all the Harappan city-states follow the same egalitarian model of organization, where there was no kings or royalty, and everyone in the community was considered equal?

Or, maybe we should ask: why was Sumeria so aggressive, violent and destructive, when they appeared to have everything they needed to thrive as well as the Harappans?

interesting stuff,

sounds like the hierarchy in Sumeria may well have contributed to its own destruction - perhaps due to the politics of greed and envy?
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
interesting stuff,

sounds like the hierarchy in Sumeria may well have contributed to its own destruction - perhaps due to the politics of greed and envy?
That certainly is a problem for nations that spend the bulk of their resources on in-fighting and fighting with their neighbours. Both Sumer and Indus Valley cultures continued on for thousands of years, so they evidently faced little pressures from marauding barbarians for most of their histories, and were able to live off the land for an extraordinarily long period of time. The old history books...like the ones I read when we glossed over ancient history in grade 9 or 10, left the presumption that the valley cultures faced constant threat of invasion, and were eventually over-run by barbarians. But, more recent and unbiased examinations of the past indicate that the prime culprits for collapse and abandonment of early city states was related to climate change, as was the pattern of migrations and invasions.

The main reason I wanted to go back to where we started (specifically the first fixed agrarian communities) is because, any discussion on whether hierarchies are a natural product of human nature or a product of cultural adaptation has to explain why two of the early fixed, agrarian civilizations who had so many similar features in the type of terrain they settled and the way they lived, nevertheless were poles apart in the way they organized their societies and the values they established for their children to follow. Why was Sumerian cities like Ur so concerned with obedience to kings and high priests (making even the slightest infractions punishable by death), while archaeologists still can't figure out how Mohenjo Daro was ruled, or how they made the obvious policy decisions that had to be done to maintain harmony and decide trade agreements with nearby cities. It seems apparent that what little we can learn about their culture (I don't think archaeologists have come up with epics similar to Gilgamesh to explain how their culture worked) would tell us that whatever religious doctrines they practiced, they focused on egalitarian and cooperative values, rather than competition and striving for personal advantage. The only feature that might indicate status or hierarchy would have been in personal adornment (they wore little clothing, but did wear jewelry according to statues and artwork), since the houses and other possessions were almost identical with each other.

Why are the accounts from Sumer so filled with wars, payment disputes in trade, while the cities along the Indus don't even have evidence that they raised armies for most of their existence? There's a whole lot of assumptions regarding human nature about the importance of hierarchies, competition vs. cooperation, or whether we are innately violent or non-violent, that have been followed because most of our cultural presumptions about human nature are based on Sumerian values that have spread all around the world through the Abrahamic religious traditions.

The World today might be a much different place if we had spent the last 3000 years trying to copy the values of egalitarianism, cooperation and non-violence of the Indus Valley, rather than values of having dominion over the earth, going to war against competitors, and fighting to advance our personal status in often vicious social hierarchies. I would say that the evidence leads to the conclusion that we are highly adaptable creatures, and when we are dropped in to societies that are aggressive, competitive and uncooperative, we become focused on hierarchy and our place on the ladder. If we grow up in egalitarian societies that do not incentivise greed, exploitation and violence, we might have a different take on human nature.
 
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