The Design of Torture

[Noaidi]

Looking at the global scope, or the world's bigger and broader situation, we see innocent people starving, even where there is abundance, not only due to diseases [swine flu, bird flu, aids, cancer, mad cow, ebola, sars, TB, staff infection due to being dirty, etc], but due to the far and broad scope of earthquakes, wars, [some countries sell their food for weapons], terrorism destabilizing society, and an apparent economic meltdown. Perhaps the political world will want and go after the wealth the religious world has amassed. I think the political circumstances are at the point of a square off with the religious world or the world's modern religious system of things. With backing the United Nations can be strengthened to turn on the world's false religious sector thus bringing an end to the dangerous religious climate brewing in the world today that is responsible for innocent bloodshed and also the bad religious conditions that have harmed the innocent.

Yes. The only part of your post I take issue with is with backing the United Nations can be strengthened to turn on the world's false religious sector. The implication here is that religion is false, but that acceptance of god's will is still okay. To me, they're one and the same.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Yes. The only part of your post I take issue with is with backing the United Nations can be strengthened to turn on the world's false religious sector. The implication here is that religion is false, but that acceptance of god's will is still okay. To me, they're one and the same.

If mankind's religious family tree is traced back to its roots in ancient Babylon we see the birth of the old world religious belief system starting with Nimrod.
From ancient Babylon the people migrated throughout the earth taking with them their old religious belief system. At the end of first-Century Christianity Christendom developed. Similar old world concepts and practices began to be mixed or blended by putting Christian names and labels on those old world pagan ideas spreading into a greater religious Babylon or Babylon the Great.. That is why we see similar religious concepts overlapping in the world's religions today or the world's religious sector. Christendom [so-called Christianity] also compromises with the political elements of the world supporting their wars even blessing weapons of opposite 'Christian' sides thus turning herself into a modern monstrosity far removed from the recorded words that came out of Jesus mouth.

In Bible history when the old Israelites took up 'Sun' worship God used the political/military world against them such as using ancient Assyria.
When the Jews of the first century began practicing traditions or customs of men not found in Scripture Jesus forewarned about their coming destruction.
In the year 70 the Roman armies proved to the the 'ax' that destroyed Jerusalem and its religious temple.

Jesus was politically neutral. Jesus first-century followers were also neutral.
They did not even get involved in the issues of the day between the Jews and the Romans. Jesus did not think his religion teaching was false, but what was not in agreement with it is false. That is why Matthew chapter seven Jesus forewarned 'many' would come 'In His Name' but be proving false.

 

[Meow Mix]

God will execute wickedness. Psalm 92v7.

Didn't God change his mind at Jonah 3v10; 4v2?

Okay, if God executes (performs) wickedness, then God is not benevolent but rather malevolent.

If God can change His mind, then he is not omniscient by definition. Omniscient beings can't change their minds since there is never any "new" information from which to change said ming. If a God knows something, then changes their mind, then they never knew it in the first place, did they?

 

[Meow Mix]

Is my understanding right about that some humans who descended from those who did not contract the Bubonic plague have no cell portals of entry for HIV so those would have a genetic advantage?

Random mutation or some changes are from '?' sources over the centuries, and we are farthest in history from when Adam originally had human perfection of sound mind and body.

Do we know if military experiments, or other's experiments, with viruses have not gone awry? Terribly wrong?

Originally wasn't the primary mode of transmission for HIV spread through sex and blood transfusions? God's warnings have always been against fornication and misuse of blood. [Acts 15v20,29] However, Scripture does refer to Satan as the 'god' of this world of badness- 2 Cor 4v4; Rev 12vs9,12.

So you disagree with life-saving blood transfusions? If one of your family members were sick you would say "No, God says not to do that?"

I don't really see how what you've mentioned here resolves the problem I illuminated.

 

[Gunfingers]

Okay, if God executes (performs) wickedness, then God is not benevolent but rather malevolent.

If God can change His mind, then he is not omniscient by definition. Omniscient beings can't change their minds since there is never any "new" information from which to change said ming. If a God knows something, then changes their mind, then they never knew it in the first place, did they?

I don't know where modern christians got the idea of an all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful god, because even a cursory reading of the bible shows that he has none of these traits. His behavior is basically what mine would be if i had created my own universe full of people to worship me: capricious, arbitrary, and occasionally mean just for it's own sake. He is shown in the bible to occasionally be unaware of something that happened, and then become aware later. Adam and Eve eating the fruit of the tree of Knowledge, for example. Limits on his power are implied through things like having to use plagues to allow the Hebrews to escape Egypt rather than simply miracling them out.

 

[Meow Mix]

I don't know where modern christians got the idea of an all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful god, because even a cursory reading of the bible shows that he has none of these traits. His behavior is basically what mine would be if i had created my own universe full of people to worship me: capricious, arbitrary, and occasionally mean just for it's own sake. He is shown in the bible to occasionally be unaware of something that happened, and then become aware later. Adam and Eve eating the fruit of the tree of Knowledge, for example. Limits on his power are implied through things like having to use plagues to allow the Hebrews to escape Egypt rather than simply miracling them out.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure if I were a goddess I'd tell my people that they can't eat fish on Tuesdays just for kicks.

I agree with what you've said above, too. Also the whole point of Christianity seems strange to me if Jesus had to sacrifice himself to absolve us of our sins.

Hello? Omnipotent power? Why not just miracle away the sin?

 

[evolved yet?]

How come he made the snake talk? How come he let the snake talk to eve? How come the snake wasn't killed as punishment(he could do better then making it go on it's belly, couldn't he)? They didn't no what wrong and right were, how would you expect them to follow rules( and why were they punished for it)? Why didn't god stop them from eating the fruit? Why do you put a tree that you don't want people to eat from? It's said that there was a fire sword guarding the garden, where did it go? Why did god want them not to gain knowledge?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

evolved yet?

Satan, not God, made the serpent[snake] appear to talk. Satan used the serpent the same way a ventriloquist uses his dummy.

Satan, like Adam and Eve, was created with free moral will to choose how to behave.
God forces no one to worship him.

Yes, they did know right and wrong because they were told you eat you die.
God does not interfere with or stop our free will.

How many trees on earth? Out of all the trees on earth only one tree was God's property.
Most people have at least one item that they do not want to share with another.

The Garden disappeared or was washed away at the time of Noah's Flood.

God wanted them to gain knowledge, but accurate knowledge of what is right not wrong.
God let Adam name the animals and God's purpose was that Adam and Eve live forever.
If they remained obedient Adam and Eve would be alive here on earth today with everlasting life in view on a paradisaic earth.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Okay, if God executes (performs) wickedness, then God is not benevolent but rather malevolent.
If God can change His mind, then he is not omniscient by definition. Omniscient beings can't change their minds since there is never any "new" information from which to change said ming. If a God knows something, then changes their mind, then they never knew it in the first place, did they?

Right. God only uses his foreknowledge when absolutely necessary to protect the upright. God warned Noah then Noah warned the rest.

Isn't there a difference between murder and an execution for Justice sake?
All are given the same opportunity in free moral will.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So you disagree with life-saving blood transfusions? If one of your family members were sick you would say "No, God says not to do that?"
I don't really see how what you've mentioned here resolves the problem I illuminated.

How many diseases are transmitted by blood transfusions?__________

A lot of hospitals have non-blood management available, and some even have non-blood treatment units available.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I don't know where modern christians got the idea of an all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful god, because even a cursory reading of the bible shows that he has none of these traits. His behavior is basically what mine would be if i had created my own universe full of people to worship me: capricious, arbitrary, and occasionally mean just for it's own sake. He is shown in the bible to occasionally be unaware of something that happened, and then become aware later. Adam and Eve eating the fruit of the tree of Knowledge, for example. Limits on his power are implied through things like having to use plagues to allow the Hebrews to escape Egypt rather than simply miracling them out.

Purpose of the plagues served to give Pharaoh plenty of opportunity to change his mind and heart. It also showed in the end God will win out. -Ex 9v16

We are all in heaven and earth created with free moral will to choose.
Deut 30v19; 32v5.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure if I were a goddess I'd tell my people that they can't eat fish on Tuesdays just for kicks.
I agree with what you've said above, too. Also the whole point of Christianity seems strange to me if Jesus had to sacrifice himself to absolve us of our sins.
Hello? Omnipotent power? Why not just miracle away the sin?

The church said Fish Friday. Not found in Scripture.
Food does Not commend us to God.- see 1 Cor 8v8

Death frees or acquits us from sin. -see Romans 6v7.
[except for Matt 12v32; Heb 6vs4-6]
'Death' stamps the price tag of sin as "Paid in Full"
This does not mean innocent but like a governor that pardons a person so the charges [sin] no longer sticks.

Since we can not resurrect oneself or another we need someone who can.
Sinless Jesus because he died faithful, can resurrect us and he will.
- Acts 24v15.

 

[Meow Mix]

Purpose of the plagues served to give Pharaoh plenty of opportunity to change his mind and heart. It also showed in the end God will win out. -Ex 9v16

We are all in heaven and earth created with free moral will to choose.
Deut 30v19; 32v5.

Doesn't Romans 9 indicate that God purposely hardened the heart of the Pharaoh?

In fact, Romans 9 also indicates that God creates people as a potter makes clay -- some as vessels of glory, and some as vessels unto wrath, and also tells us pretty much that this was set even before the creation.

Sure sounds incompatible with "free will" to me.

 

[Meow Mix]

Right. God only uses his foreknowledge when absolutely necessary to protect the upright. God warned Noah then Noah warned the rest.

Isn't there a difference between murder and an execution for Justice sake?
All are given the same opportunity in free moral will.

In what scenarios would you consider it benevolent to execute an infant, let alone ALL infants?

 

[Gunfingers]

Doesn't Romans 9 indicate that God purposely hardened the heart of the Pharaoh?

In fact, Romans 9 also indicates that God creates people as a potter makes clay -- some as vessels of glory, and some as vessels unto wrath, and also tells us pretty much that this was set even before the creation.

Sure sounds incompatible with "free will" to me.

I don't know if Romans 9 indicates it, but Exodus states it pretty explicitly.

1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I make you as God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet.
2 "You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall speak to Pharaoh that he let the sons of Israel go out of his land.
3 "But I will harden Pharaoh's heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.

 

[kingdombuilder]

These methods for evading the immune system are irreducibly complex: without hooks, the organism gets destroyed in the spleen; furthermore if the hooks don't periodically switch out the immune system destroys the hooks.

- Ok, so you do acknowledge that some things are irreducibly complex, unlike other atheists I have engaged in conversation with.

- I would add however, that purpose must be included as a criteria to detect intelligent design. The hooks for example show purpose as well.

Is this an example of a benevolent creator's design? Or can irreducibly complex systems evolve?

- hummm... so what you are really arguing here is simply another form of the problem of evil and suffering in light of a good God. Is this a correct observation?

Seems like a conundrum to me -- that is, if you're a creationist who believes in a benevolent God and denies that irreducibly complex systems can evolve.

-I fail to see what wheather or not a virus (irreducible complex system) can evolve or not has to do with wheather God is good or not. Please explain.

-By evolve, do you mean adapt?

 

[Meow Mix]

- Ok, so you do acknowledge that some things are irreducibly complex, unlike other atheists I have engaged in conversation with.

I do no such thing; as I'm arguing from a devil's advocate point of view. "Irreducible complexity" is pretty much an unfalsifiable concept like the rest of "design" arguments. I'm merely demonstrating that creationists who believe in both of my premises have a conundrum to deal with.

- I would add however, that purpose must be included as a criteria to detect intelligent design. The hooks for example show purpose as well.

That's fine. You're pretty much merging complex specified information with irreducible complexity here, but I can see why that would be a rational step to a creationist.

- hummm... so what you are really arguing here is simply another form of the problem of evil and suffering in light of a good God. Is this a correct observation?

Yep, it's a hybrid argument that forces creationists who accept the premise to either explain a torture device created by God or a torture device (which is irreducibly complex) that evolved. The conundrum is either God creates torture devices (in which case the creationist must explain just how God is supposed to be "benevolent") or irreducibly complex systems can evolve.

-I fail to see what wheather or not a virus (irreducible complex system) can evolve or not has to do with wheather God is good or not. Please explain.

-By evolve, do you mean adapt?

How do you distinguish "adapt" from evolve? It's the difference between 1 and 100.

Plasmodium is not a virus, it's a protozoan that is specifically capable of evading the human immune system. How can this be?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

In what scenarios would you consider it benevolent to execute an infant, let alone ALL infants?

The Canaanites practiced burning their children alive.
The Israelites were forbidden to do such a thing.- Deut 18v10;12v31.

As far as minor children [1Cor7v14] the parent is responsible.
The parents of Noah's day were beyond repentance or reform.
There is a cut off point after being warned.
Noah had half a century to warn the people.
The people chose to disobey God.

This is also a reason why the global preaching work of Matt 24v14 is so urgent today because God does not desire any to be destroyed or perish but all to repent- 2nd Peter 3v9; Ez 33v11.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Doesn't Romans 9 indicate that God purposely hardened the heart of the Pharaoh?
In fact, Romans 9 also indicates that God creates people as a potter makes clay -- some as vessels of glory, and some as vessels unto wrath, and also tells us pretty much that this was set even before the creation.
Sure sounds incompatible with "free will" to me.

God purposely allowed Pharaoh's heart to be hardened because that was Pharaoh's choice. All the plagues were a warning. Pharaoh chose to ignore.
Please read: Exodus 8 v15,19,32.

We choose which type of clay we wish to be.
Brittle and hard or soft and malleable clay.
If we choose to be hard clay we can not be molded into vessels of glory.

 

[kingdombuilder]

... "Irreducible complexity" is pretty much an unfalsifiable concept like the rest of "design" arguments...

-Well, I am sure many would dispute this claim, but seeing as this is not the topic of the thread...

That's fine. You're pretty much merging complex specified information with irreducible complexity here, but I can see why that would be a rational step to a creationist.

a point of agreement

Yep, it's a hybrid argument that forces creationists who accept the premise to either explain a torture device created by God or a torture device (which is irreducibly complex) that evolved. The conundrum is either God creates torture devices (in which case the creationist must explain just how God is supposed to be "benevolent") or irreducibly complex systems can evolve.

Of course your conclusion of a God who is not good might be justified if it could be shown that absolutely no good what so ever comes about from/as a result of such circumstances.

How do you distinguish "adapt" from evolve? It's the difference between 1 and 100.

I asked for clarity since adaptaption,evolve, or evolution are often used interchangably. They are not the same thing. I am simply asking how you are using the term. In anycase, it is probally not really that important at this point. The main point was this question which you did not respond to:

-I fail to see what wheather or not a virus (irreducible complex system) can evolve or not has to do with wheather God is good or not. Please explain.