The Devil's Toolbox

[Deeje]

In Christianity the devil plays a key role in why humanity ran off the rails thousands of years ago, introducing pain and suffering and death into the world.

For those who believe in this enemy of God.....who is he, and why is he in an adversarial role?
Why does God tolerate him and allow him to inflict suffering on innocent people in the world, like he did with Job?

Many people have difficulty understanding why God didn't just make the world operate on auto-pilot so that no evil could ever be seen in his creation. Is there a reason for that?

He seems to have an extensive toolbox, filled with all sorts of different ways to deceive mankind, to create as much hateful division as possible, and to lead them away from God. Sometimes he can even masquerade as "God" or "an angel of light".

Some of his activities are obvious, and some are subtle and not so easy to spot. He likes to create confusion by giving us too many choices....leaving a lot of people wondering which way to go.

What tools do you see in his toolbox that might inflict damage on those who are trying to bring their lives into harmony with God's will?
What are the obvious ones, and what do you think the more subtle ones are?

I can think of quite a few....

 

[Eddi]

In Christianity the devil plays a key role in why humanity ran off the rails thousands of years ago, introducing pain and suffering and death into the world.

For those who believe in this enemy of God.....who is he, and why is he in an adversarial role?
Why does God tolerate him and allow him to inflict suffering on innocent people in the world, like he did with Job?

Many people have difficulty understanding why God didn't just make the world operate on auto-pilot so that no evil could ever be seen in his creation. Is there a reason for that?

He seems to have an extensive toolbox, filled with all sorts of different ways to deceive mankind, to create as much hateful division as possible, and to lead them away from God. Sometimes he can even masquerade as "God" or "an angel of light".

Some of his activities are obvious, and some are subtle and not so easy to spot. He likes to create confusion by giving us too many choices....leaving a lot of people wondering which way to go.

What tools do you see in his toolbox that might inflict damage on those who are trying to bring their lives into harmony with God's will?
What are the obvious ones, and what do you think the more subtle ones are?

I can think of quite a few....

I think Simulation Theory is a tool of the devil

On numerous occasions it has lead me away from my faith and I still sometimes feel tempted by its allure

I think the Devil is pleased that Simulation Theory is a thing but I don't think he invented it himself

 

[Brian2]

I think Simulation Theory is a tool of the devil

On numerous occasions it has lead me away from my faith and I still sometimes feel tempted by its allure

I think the Devil is pleased that Simulation Theory is a thing but I don't think he invented it himself

I just looked simulation theory up. Interesting but I'm not drawn to it in any way as even a possibility but I guess Satan could use anything like that which we are drawn to. It may end up being an alternative world view and replace a Christian world view of all this being real.

 

[Eddi]

It may end up being an alternative world view and replace a Christian world view of all this being real.

Yes, I think it could do that

I used to advocate it on these forums quite enthusiastically

But I no longer believe it

 

[Eddi]

I can think of quite a few....

Do tell

 

[Deeje]

I think Simulation Theory is a tool of the devil

On numerous occasions it has lead me away from my faith and I still sometimes feel tempted by its allure

I think the Devil is pleased that Simulation Theory is a thing but I don't think he invented it himself

Since deception is the devil’s stock in trade, we have to look carefully at the things less obvious to those people who want to believe certain things about their God and to justify certain aspects of their worship that find no basis in scripture.

A good place to start is, of course the Bible itself, to see what satan’s modus operandi looks like.

How did he begin his agenda to steal worship away from the Creator? He lied.....and he used suggestion to create doubt in the minds of his ‘victims’.
He targeted the younger and less informed member of the human race in order to influence the thinking and actions of her husband. His plan would only work if he could get them both to disobey their God. Each one ate from the fruit (which of itself was not poisonous, but represented Jehovah’s Sovereignty or his right to set reasonable limits to their free will) but for different reasons.

The woman was thoroughly deceived, but the man was not. The devil, we are told (in the book of Ezekiel,) was a “covering cherub” (guardian) in the garden of Eden, so he was there in a position of trust observing all that was going on and plotting his course. He was aware that Adam had waited for quite some time for his mate as God took time to educate him before giving him the assignment of husband and father.

Satan betrayed his own agenda by basing his lies on his own desire to become a god to humankind. He wanted worship (even being bold enough to offer all the kingdoms of the world to Jesus in exchange for one act of worship Luke 4:5-8).

He knew that if he could separate the humans from God, he could claim them (and their natural desire to worship) for himself. If he could get perfect sinless humans to obey him, how easy would it be to get their sinful children to do his bidding?

The devil has been using false worship all through history in order to keep his worshippers satisfied that they were fulfilling this natural inclination in themselves, that is completely missing in the animal kingdom.

So how do you think we can determine the true religion from the false? How can we examine all the different religions in the world to find common threads that link them back to him?

Do tell

Common threads.....can you think of some things that just about all false worship shares with what is commonly believed to be “Christianity”?

 

[LightofTruth]

In Christianity the devil plays a key role in why humanity ran off the rails thousands of years ago, introducing pain and suffering and death into the world.

According to Scripture, it was sin that brought death into the world: "sin entered the world through one man and death through sin....". Rom 5:12

EXACTLY! So, it is SIN that is the cause of death and suffering and pain.

And how is it that man sins? Good question!

James explains it nicely:

"When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone. 14 But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed* by his own desire.15 Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn sin, when it has been carried out, brings forth death." James 1:13-15 NWT

Ah, so SIN comes from man's OWN desires. And the sin of one man has brought death to everyone. (Rom 5:12)

Therefore, the serpent in the garden who was punished by God to spend the rest of his short days on his belly licking the dust of the earth has come to represent that evil desire in man called "the lust or desire of the flesh" whereby man is drawn away and enticed to sin and does sin by that desire as just proved!

 

[Brian2]

Yes, I think it could do that

I used to advocate it on these forums quite enthusiastically

But I no longer believe it

It's good that people can be saved from dead end beliefs and brought closer to God and given hope.

 

[Deeje]

According to Scripture, it was sin that brought death into the world: "sin entered the world through one man and death through sin....". Rom 5:12

EXACTLY! So, it is SIN that is the cause of death and suffering and pain.

And how is it that man sins? Good question!

James explains it nicely:

"When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone. 14 But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed* by his own desire.15 Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn sin, when it has been carried out, brings forth death." James 1:13-15 NWT

Ah, so SIN comes from man's OWN desires. And the sin of one man has brought death to everyone. (Rom 5:12)

Yes, the temptation to sin comes from within but when there was no temptation as a part of our natural circumstances, what led the woman to sin in the first place? Would she have thought of those ideas on her own? Did she have grounds to believe that God was withholding something beneficial from them? She was the 'newby' and her husband was in the process of educating her, the way that God had educated him before her creation.
She knew what the prohibition was and that it carried a very heavy penalty.....that was all she needed to know.

Therefore, the serpent in the garden who was punished by God to spend the rest of his short days on his belly licking the dust of the earth has come to represent that evil desire in man called "the lust or desire of the flesh" whereby man is drawn away and enticed to sin and does sin by that desire as just proved!

That is not the story told in the Bible. Genesis does not identify the serpent...he is presented only as an adversary in the Hebrew scriptures. His titles "satan" and "devil" are not his name, but simply an indication of his character.
"Satan" means "manslayer" and "devil" means "slanderer".

The devil is mentioned by Jesus in relation to the Pharisees when he told them...
John 8:44...
"You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie."

Jesus was not speaking about a fictitious character, but the reason behind his whole earthly mission ...to undo the works of the devil. (Hebrews 2:14) Sure Adam and his wife succumbed to temptation but only because there was a tempter put those ideas into their heads.

Didn't we see satan try to do the same to Jesus? He tempted him three times in the hope that he could get Jesus to transgress just like Adam and his wife had done.....but this son of God was not going to allow temptation to get in the way of his mission.

Satan has nothing new in his toolbox......its the same MO, just dressed up in different ways.

 

[LightofTruth]

Yes, the temptation to sin comes from within but when there was no temptation as a part of our natural circumstances, what led the woman to sin in the first place?
Would she have thought of those ideas on her own? Did she have grounds to believe that God was withholding something beneficial from them? She was the 'newby' and her husband was in the process of educating her, the way that God had educated him before her creation.
She knew what the prohibition was and that it carried a very heavy penalty.....that was all she needed to know.

We previously had this discussion. Link below:

Question for all jehovah's witnesses on here

 

[Deeje]

We previously had this discussion. Link below:

Question for all jehovah's witnesses on here

Sorry, I don’t remember every conversation I have had on this site....but thanks for the reminder. It makes me realise why I abandoned the conversation.....what was the point after all? You’re a ‘one man band’.....something a Christian can never be. You’ve got it all figured out but who else believes what you believe? Did God choose you and appoint you to single-handedly preach to the whole world? Really? Do you know how many ‘lone rangers’ there are out there.....if you all agreed with each other, you might have something.....but since you don’t, I’ll stick with what the Bible says through the “faithful and discreet slave” that Jesus appointed to “feed” his entire household. (Matthew 24:45);

Unless you have fellow Christians with whom you meet regularly for worship and encouragement, (Hebrews 10:24-25) you have your very own denomination of one.....does it have a name? Your identification is “scripture”...but it bears no resemblance to the scripture I know. It’s your version.....and you are welcome to it.

You can’t fight an enemy that you don’t acknowledge.

 

[LightofTruth]

Sorry, I don’t remember every conversation I have had on this site....but thanks for the reminder. It makes me realise why I abandoned the conversation.....what was the point after all? You’re a ‘one man band’.....something a Christian can never be. You’ve got it all figured out but who else believes what you believe? Did God choose you and appoint you to single-handedly preach to the whole world? Really? Do you know how many ‘lone rangers’ there are out there.....if you all agreed with each other, you might have something.....but since you don’t, I’ll stick with what the Bible says through the “faithful and discreet slave” that he appointed to “feed” his entire household. (Matthew 24:45);

Unless you have fellow Christians with whom you meet regularly for worship and encouragement, (Hebrews 10:24-25) you have your very own denomination of one.....does it have a name? Your identification is “scripture”...but it bears no resemblance to the scripture I know. It’s your version.....and you are welcome to it.

You can’t fight an enemy that you don’t acknowledge.

I suggest you do your homework.

Basically, what you're saying is that there imust be a fairly large group out there who know the truth and that group is the JW's, and that's why you follow them.
Your argument is invalid.

 

[Deeje]

I suggest you do your homework.

LOL....I could suggest the same to you. You have no brotherhood...and if you have those who believe as you do, please identify them. Let’s see who they are and what they believe.....

Basically, what you're saying is that there imust be a fairly large group out there who know the truth and that group is the JW's, and that's why you follow them.
Your argument is invalid.

If you follow the first century model, you will see the same pattern.
It doesn’t have to be “large” but Jesus took thousands out of Judaism and brought them into the new covenant. From small beginnings, there came to be a new nation of Jehovah’s people, whom Paul said, had to be united in their beliefs. (1 Corinthians 1:10) With whom are you “united”? With whom do you worship?

Jesus was born into a thoroughly corrupt religious system, claiming to worship their God, but following man-made traditions ahead of scripture. (Matthew 15:7-9)
Jesus followed the Law as God commanded it....but not the traditions that he condemned.

Jesus was sent by God, not to the religious leaders (whom he condemned to “Gehenna” because they were incorrigible after a disastrous history of disobedience) but to the “lost sheep” or those who failed to qualify for anything but condemnation under the ridiculously rigid interpretation of the laws established by the Jewish leadership. They demanded practices that God never required under the law, virtually teaching their own version of it and ruthlessly enforcing it. These “sheep” were lost to Judaism , but not to God.

Jesus indicated that these religious ‘shepherds’ were completely unacceptable to the God they claimed to worship, and he led those “lost sheep” out of that corrupt religious system and introduced the new covenant (foretold by Jeremiah) with those who would eventually come out of that system.

John the Baptist was the first to express God’s disapproval of the Pharisees and their teachings. (Matthew 3:7-12) Jesus continued to castigate them at every opportunity. (Matthew 23)

After his death and resurrection, those who followed Jesus had some decisions to make.....to remain in that system or to separate from it. They chose to separate. This was not a new religion, but a continuation of Jehovah’s worship under a new covenant relationship under the leadership of their Messiah, which came to include Gentiles. (Acts 15:14) Jesus did not abandon true worship, but reestablished it.

Christendom is a mirror image of first century Judaism. The leadership does not follow scripture but instead follows its own traditions which finds their roots in pagan concepts.....teaching things that Jesus never taught.

It was Daniel who was chosen to write about “the time of the end”.....a time when God would ‘cleanse, whiten and refine’ a people of the spiritual contamination that had built up over almost 2,000 years of apostasy. (Daniel 12:4, 9-10)

Jesus would again lead his disciples out of many corrupt religious systems....this time, a global one. (Revelation 18:4-5) It would not be the result of any one man or from any specific denomination. This was not a breakaway, but a standing away from what was identified as an apostate religious system.

A group of like-minded men felt drawn to come together and examine all of Christendom’s doctrines to see if they had valid basis in scripture.....and gradually they discovered that the majority of Christendom’s doctrines were introduced by the Catholic Church, which incorporated many pagan concepts under a thin veneer of “Christianity” when Roman Emperor Constantine made Roman Catholicism the mandated state religion....a fusion of weak Christianity and pagan Roman sun worship.

One by one these doctrines were dispensed with....the trinity...immortality of the soul.....and hellfire, to name a few.

These men published their findings and were not ashamed to identify themselves as separated from the corrupt religious system that they had left. Their research struck a chord with many who were sick of the weak and hypocritical practices of the church whilst it indulged in the political support of its respective nations. Being “friends with the world” was more important than being ‘friends with God’. (James 4:4)

These were very bold in their preaching in the same way as the first Christians were in exposing corruption in Judaism. It made them very unpopular and objects of derision and persecution, just as Jesus had warned his first disciples. (John 15:18-21)

They preached their message about God’s Kingdom, and found that many people responded because the ring of truth was undeniable and Christendom’s failures to obey Christ’s teachings was obvious.

So where can you put yourself in that scenario? Can a ‘lone ranger’ fit the pattern and fulfil Matthew 24:14? You tell me.....

 

[Left Coast]

***MOD POST***

THREAD MOVED TO SAME FAITH DEBATES.

 

[LightofTruth]

LOL....I could suggest the same to you. You have no brotherhood...and if you have those who believe as you do, please identify them. Let’s see who they are and what they believe.....



If you follow the first century model, you will see the same pattern.
It doesn’t have to be “large” but Jesus took thousands out of Judaism and brought them into the new covenant. From small beginnings, there came to be a new nation of Jehovah’s people, whom Paul said, had to be united in their beliefs. (1 Corinthians 1:10) With whom are you “united”? With whom do you worship?

Jesus was born into a thoroughly corrupt religious system, claiming to worship their God, but following man-made traditions ahead of scripture. (Matthew 15:7-9)
Jesus followed the Law as God commanded it....but not the traditions that he condemned.

Jesus was sent by God, not to the religious leaders (whom he condemned to “Gehenna” because they were incorrigible after a disastrous history of disobedience) but to the “lost sheep” or those who failed to qualify for anything but condemnation under the ridiculously rigid interpretation of the laws established by the Jewish leadership. They demanded practices that God never required under the law, virtually teaching their own version of it and ruthlessly enforcing it. These “sheep” were lost to Judaism , but not to God.

Jesus indicated that these religious ‘shepherds’ were completely unacceptable to the God they claimed to worship, and he led those “lost sheep” out of that corrupt religious system and introduced the new covenant (foretold by Jeremiah) with those who would eventually come out of that system.

John the Baptist was the first to express God’s disapproval of the Pharisees and their teachings. (Matthew 3:7-12) Jesus continued to castigate them at every opportunity. (Matthew 23)

After his death and resurrection, those who followed Jesus had some decisions to make.....to remain in that system or to separate from it. They chose to separate. This was not a new religion, but a continuation of Jehovah’s worship under a new covenant relationship under the leadership of their Messiah, which came to include Gentiles. (Acts 15:14) Jesus did not abandon true worship, but reestablished it.

Christendom is a mirror image of first century Judaism. The leadership does not follow scripture but instead follows its own traditions which finds their roots in pagan concepts.....teaching things that Jesus never taught.

It was Daniel who was chosen to write about “the time of the end”.....a time when God would ‘cleanse, whiten and refine’ a people of the spiritual contamination that had built up over almost 2,000 years of apostasy. (Daniel 12:4, 9-10)

Jesus would again lead his disciples out of many corrupt religious systems....this time, a global one. (Revelation 18:4-5) It would not be the result of any one man or from any specific denomination. This was not a breakaway, but a standing away from what was identified as an apostate religious system.

A group of like-minded men felt drawn to come together and examine all of Christendom’s doctrines to see if they had valid basis in scripture.....and gradually they discovered that the majority of Christendom’s doctrines were introduced by the Catholic Church, which incorporated many pagan concepts under a thin veneer of “Christianity” when Roman Emperor Constantine made Roman Catholicism the mandated state religion....a fusion of weak Christianity and pagan Roman sun worship.

One by one these doctrines were dispensed with....the trinity...immortality of the soul.....and hellfire, to name a few.

These men published their findings and were not ashamed to identify themselves as separated from the corrupt religious system that they had left. Their research struck a chord with many who were sick of the weak and hypocritical practices of the church whilst it indulged in the political support of its respective nations. Being “friends with the world” was more important than being ‘friends with God’. (James 4:4)

These were very bold in their preaching in the same way as the first Christians were in exposing corruption in Judaism. It made them very unpopular and objects of derision and persecution, just as Jesus had warned his first disciples. (John 15:18-21)

They preached their message about God’s Kingdom, and found that many people responded because the ring of truth was undeniable and Christendom’s failures to obey Christ’s teachings was obvious.

So where can you put yourself in that scenario? Can a ‘lone ranger’ fit the pattern and fulfil Matthew 24:14? You tell me.....

Who says I'm a "lone ranger"? YOU.

Again, you need to do some homework.

Your claims matter nothing because the Bible tells the whole story.

The JW's are nothing more than another Christian sect. That's it.

 

[Deeje]

Who says I'm a "lone ranger"? YOU.

Since you seem reluctant to identify your religion I can only assume that you don't have one that is recognized by anyone but yourself?
Is there some reason why you cannot admit that you have no brotherhood? What Christians in the first century were operating alone?

Again, you need to do some homework.

I have put in 50 years worth of "homework".....the Bible is what have studied very carefully all these years. What about you?

The Ethiopian Eunuch to whom Phillip preached made a statement that is still true today....(Acts 8:26-39)

"30 Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31 And he said, “Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him."

This is how Christianity was spread....it wasn't a" believe whatever you wish" proposition.
We need someone to guide us in understanding the scriptures otherwise we will just put our own spin on them and they will just be our version of what we read. If no one else has the same interpretation, then it isn't God's spirit doing the teaching.

Your claims matter nothing because the Bible tells the whole story.

Please give us your version of the big picture.....

1) What was God's first purpose for mankind?

2) What went wrong so that they lost God's favor and found themselves subject to sin and death?

3) For what purpose was Jesus sent and why is he called a redeemer?

4) What was accomplished by his death?

5) What does the future hold for the human race according to Isaiah 55:11 and Q 1?

Please provide scripture to back up your answers.

The JW's are nothing more than another Christian sect. That's it.

And you aren't? Why? Because there is just one of you?
Does that mean that you do not identify as "Christian"?

Please explain.....

 

[LightofTruth]

Since you seem reluctant to identify your religion I can only assume that you don't have one that is recognized by anyone but yourself?
Is there some reason why you cannot admit that you have no brotherhood? What Christians in the first century were operating alone?


I have put in 50 years worth of "homework".....the Bible is what have studied very carefully all these years. What about you?

The Ethiopian Eunuch to whom Phillip preached made a statement that is still true today....(Acts 8:26-39)

"30 Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31 And he said, “Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him."

This is how Christianity was spread....it wasn't a" believe whatever you wish" proposition.
We need someone to guide us in understanding the scriptures otherwise we will just put our own spin on them and they will just be our version of what we read. If no one else has the same interpretation, then it isn't God's spirit doing the teaching.



Please give us your version of the big picture.....

1) What was God's first purpose for mankind?

2) What went wrong so that they lost God's favor and found themselves subject to sin and death?

3) For what purpose was Jesus sent and why is he called a redeemer?

4) What was accomplished by his death?

5) What does the future hold for the human race according to Isaiah 55:11 and Q 1?

Please provide scripture to back up your answers.



And you aren't? Why? Because there is just one of you?
Does that mean that you do not identify as "Christian"?

Please explain.....

The first thing you need to do is abandon your false idea of God.

The Satan of Job, whoever that may have been, could do nothing unless it had been given him of God. In other words, the Satan could have had no power to do anything unless God granted it to him.
The same thing was true of Pontius Pilate. Jesus told Pilate that he could have no power whatsoever unless it was given to him from above.

So, any idea that there were gods in heaven who rebelled against the God of all creation and acted of their own freewill is entirely false!

The idea that God's angels have their own "toolbox" of freewill with which they can use to inflict pain, suffering and death upon man acting as an enemy of God is completely FALSE!

The idea that the "war in heaven" refers to a war that took place in the heaven where God dwells is FALSE!

So, first of all you need to get to know the God of the Bible.

 

[Deeje]

The first thing you need to do is abandon your false idea of God.

So, first of all you need to get to know the God of the Bible.

And your take on the Bible’s teaching is your very own......fine. But you have no scriptural basis for it.

I don’t believe that you know the God of the Bible......the God and Father of Jesus Christ.

You are correct that nothing happens here on this earth without God’s permission....but I know what the Bible teaches about satan and his minions...both human and angelic.

It doesn’t seem to occur to you that God can use those who abused their free will to become ‘adversarial’ in order to teach his children about the effects of negative thinking and behavior. Free will was a gift, but it had constraints...it was never totally “free”....for good reason.

The Satan of Job, whoever that may have been, could do nothing unless it had been given him of God. In other words, the Satan could have had no power to do anything unless God granted it to him.

The “satan” of Job was granted permission in each instance to test the faith of the world’s most faithful man at the time, but on the basis of what Paul explained in 1 Corinthians 10:13...

“No temptation has come upon you except what is common to men. But God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear, but along with the temptation he will also make the way out so that you may be able to endure it.“

When God asked satan....”Where have you come from?” Satan answered Jehovah: “From roving about on the earth and from walking about in it.” 8 And Jehovah said to Satan: “Have you taken note of my servant Job? There is no one like him on the earth. He is an upright man of integrity, fearing God and shunning what is bad.” (Job 1:7-8)

This is a conversation between spirit beings. The location is in heaven, but satan has been roving about on the earth. (Job 1:6)

There is only one God and there is only one who is identified as satan the devil (the original serpent of Eden. Revelation 20:2) in the Bible. So there is no “whoever that may have been”.....he is clearly identified in the scriptures. This original rebel managed to take a third of his angelic ‘brothers’ into disobedience with him.

God’s question to Satan...”Have you taken note of my servant Job?”.....was not out of thin air.....the devil was apparently watching this extraordinary individual and already plotting ways to undo his faith. This was before the formation of the nation of Israel and in the time of the patriarchs.
So what happened next?......

“9 At that Satan answered Jehovah: “Is it for nothing that Job has feared God? 10 Have you not put up a protective hedge around him and his house and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his livestock has spread out in the land. 11 But, for a change, stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your very face.” 12 Then Jehovah said to Satan: “Look! Everything that he has is in your hand. Only do not lay your hand on the man himself!” So Satan went out from the presence of Jehovah.”

We can see that God did not do what satan demanded, (it would have been an unrighteousness act) but he allowed the devil to test Job’s faith, in the knowledge that it would not destroy him, but set precedents for all of God’s future worshippers, who would all come under such tests. We can see this by what the devil said in the second round of tests....

Job 2:3-5...
“And Jehovah said to Satan: “Have you taken note of my servant Job? There is no one like him on the earth. He is an upright man of integrity, fearing God and shunning what is bad. He is still holding firmly to his integrity, even though you try to incite me against him to destroy him for no reason.” 4 But Satan answered Jehovah: “Skin for skin. A man will give everything that he has for his life. 5 But, for a change, stretch out your hand and strike his bone and flesh, and he will surely curse you to your very face.”

Satan did not say “everything Job has” he would give in exchange his life....but everything “a man” has...which by implication is all of us.
This was the human race on trial here, in a most extreme way, but it was permitted because of what it would teach generations to come about satan’s challenges...how hard they could be, and how to meet them successfully. It’s about holding onto our integrity and our faith despite the greatest of odds. Through it all, God was with his servant, and blessed his success in standing firm for his faith. (Job 42:12-17)

The same thing was true of Pontius Pilate. Jesus told Pilate that he could have no power whatsoever unless it was given to him from above.

So, any idea that there were gods in heaven who rebelled against the God of all creation and acted of their own freewill is entirely false!

Or you have entirely misunderstood what the Bible says about all of it. God allows things for a reason. If you really knew God, you would know this. You appear to be clueless about what God has done and is doing right now.

The idea that God's angels have their own "toolbox" of freewill with which they can use to inflict pain, suffering and death upon man acting as an enemy of God is completely FALSE!

The idea that the "war in heaven" refers to a war that took place in the heaven where God dwells is FALSE!

You haven’t got a clue....you take what the Bible says and put your own spin on it as if that has to be true because you thought of it.......I believe it is your own flawed interpretation that is FALSE.

The fact that you are alone in your interpretation should speak louder than anything others can tell you.....

 

[LightofTruth]

And your take on the Bible’s teaching is your very own......fine. But you have no scriptural basis for it.

I don’t believe that you know the God of the Bible......the God and Father of Jesus Christ.

You are correct that nothing happens here on this earth without God’s permission....but I know what the Bible teaches about satan and his minions...both human and angelic.

It doesn’t seem to occur to you that God can use those who abused their free will to become ‘adversarial’ in order to teach his children about the effects of negative thinking and behavior. Free will was a gift, but it had constraints...it was never totally “free”....for good reason.



The “satan” of Job was granted permission in each instance to test the faith of the world’s most faithful man at the time, but on the basis of what Paul explained in 1 Corinthians 10:13...

“No temptation has come upon you except what is common to men. But God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear, but along with the temptation he will also make the way out so that you may be able to endure it.“

When God asked satan....”Where have you come from?” Satan answered Jehovah: “From roving about on the earth and from walking about in it.” 8 And Jehovah said to Satan: “Have you taken note of my servant Job? There is no one like him on the earth. He is an upright man of integrity, fearing God and shunning what is bad.” (Job 1:7-8)

This is a conversation between spirit beings. The location is in heaven, but satan has been roving about on the earth. (Job 1:6)

There is only one God and there is only one who is identified as satan the devil (the original serpent of Eden. Revelation 20:2) in the Bible. So there is no “whoever that may have been”.....he is clearly identified in the scriptures. This original rebel managed to take a third of his angelic ‘brothers’ into disobedience with him.

God’s question to Satan...”Have you taken note of my servant Job?”.....was not out of thin air.....the devil was apparently watching this extraordinary individual and already plotting ways to undo his faith. This was before the formation of the nation of Israel and in the time of the patriarchs.
So what happened next?......

“9 At that Satan answered Jehovah: “Is it for nothing that Job has feared God? 10 Have you not put up a protective hedge around him and his house and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his livestock has spread out in the land. 11 But, for a change, stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your very face.” 12 Then Jehovah said to Satan: “Look! Everything that he has is in your hand. Only do not lay your hand on the man himself!” So Satan went out from the presence of Jehovah.”

We can see that God did not do what satan demanded, (it would have been an unrighteousness act) but he allowed the devil to test Job’s faith, in the knowledge that it would not destroy him, but set precedents for all of God’s future worshippers, who would all come under such tests. We can see this by what the devil said in the second round of tests....

Job 2:3-5...
“And Jehovah said to Satan: “Have you taken note of my servant Job? There is no one like him on the earth. He is an upright man of integrity, fearing God and shunning what is bad. He is still holding firmly to his integrity, even though you try to incite me against him to destroy him for no reason.” 4 But Satan answered Jehovah: “Skin for skin. A man will give everything that he has for his life. 5 But, for a change, stretch out your hand and strike his bone and flesh, and he will surely curse you to your very face.”

Satan did not say “everything Job has” he would give in exchange his life....but everything “a man” has...which by implication is all of us.
This was the human race on trial here, in a most extreme way, but it was permitted because of what it would teach generations to come about satan’s challenges...how hard they could be, and how to meet them successfully. It’s about holding onto our integrity and our faith despite the greatest of odds. Through it all, God was with his servant, and blessed his success in standing firm for his faith. (Job 42:12-17)



Or you have entirely misunderstood what the Bible says about all of it. God allows things for a reason. If you really knew God, you would know this. You appear to be clueless about what God has done and is doing right now.



You haven’t got a clue....you take what the Bible says and put your own spin into n it as if that has to be true because you thought of it.......I believe it is your own flawed interpretation that is FALSE.

The fact that you are alone in your interpretation should speak louder than anything others can tell you.....

The fact that you keep insinuating that I'm alone in my views is CLEAR evidence that the only studying you have done is what your group has provided for you.

Example:
I had a discussion with you where you claim that the sons of God in Genesis 6 were God's angels in heaven who came down and had sex with women.
That is completely false and I am in no way even close to being alone when I tell you that those sons of God were men and not God's holy angels in heaven.

More news for you: Neither am I alone when it comes to understanding the serpent in the garden of Eden.

Check this out! You'll be surprised that there are many besides me who know this truth.

The serpent was a creature whom God created and who was more subtle than and other beast of the field that God created. The word translated as subtle refers to having intelligence. Which means that the serpent had intelligence above any other beast of the field. And so we read what we read.

The idea that the serpent was a fallen or rebellious angel is totally absurd. The text speaks NOTHING of the kind. And when Paul mentions the creature he says "the serpent beguiled Eve". He does not say "the Satan beguiled Eve". Paul understood that the serpent was the serpent.

Consider these truths:

The serpent was the serpent.. A beast of the field whom God created and who was more intelligent than any other beast of the field.
The sons of God in both Genesis 6 and Job and everywhere else in Scripture are men.

Consider those facts and you'll be on your way to the truth.

 

[LightofTruth]

So the Scripture tells us that God created the serpent who was more intelligent/crafty than any other beast of the field.
The JW's will tell you that a rebellious angel in heaven used the serpent as an agent to kill the man whom God created.

So what did God do? He punished the serpent to spend the rest of his days on his belly licking the dust of the earth. And He let Satan go to kill more people.

The JW's don't seem to know that it was Adam's own sin that has killed everyone.

So why must I die for the sin of Adam? Because you have the misfortune of being IN ADAM when he sinned. What does that mean? It means you are of the same flesh as he was when he sinned. You share his same nature! And it is that very nature itself which has been condemned.

Oh, the light of truth. How sweet it is!