The Devil's Toolbox

[Deeje]

The fact that you keep insinuating that I'm alone in my views is CLEAR evidence that the only studying you have done is what your group has provided for you.

You are alone in your worship, which is telling. Others might share some of your views but there is no religion who teaches all of what you believe and you know it.

Example:
I had a discussion with you where you claim that the sons of God in Genesis 6 were God's angels in heaven who came down and had sex with women.
That is completely false and I am in no way even close to being alone when I tell you that those sons of God were men and not God's holy angels in heaven.

This is what it says in Genesis 6. Rebel angels ("sons of the true God", also mentioned in Job 1:6 which describes these sons as appearing before Jehovah in heaven) took on human form to have sex with human women...something that was deeply offensive to God and contrary to his purpose.
They produced children who had no right to exist. The immorality and violence of those days was caused by the offspring of those rebellious angels (called the Nephilim, literally meaning "fellers of men").

Why do you think God took such drastic action and flooded the world of that time, wiping out every living thing outside the ark?
There were several reasons behind it.
First: it stopped the immorality and violence that had become rampant in the world of mankind....
Second: it took out of existence the freakishly large and violent offspring that the rebel angels had produced....
Thirdly: it also forced those demon fathers back to the spirit realm where God could deal with them, because it took away any physical anchor that might have been available to them to remain on earth.
The last thing it did was to provide an illustrative parallel of the time when Jesus was to return..."just like the days of Noah"... (Matthew 24:37-39)
It probably also gave the Greeks and others with their myths of licentious gods and demi-gods.

If these were just ordinary human beings, why take such drastic action? Why would God flood the world on account of some wicked humans? One angel took out 185,000 Assyrian soldiers in just one night. (2 Kings 19:35) At the time of the flood, the earth was not widely populated.
.....so I'm sorry, but your version does not stack up from the scriptural perspective.

There is no mention of the demons ever being able to materialize again. But it didn't make them go away because God had not finished with them yet.

More news for you: Neither am I alone when it comes to understanding the serpent in the garden of Eden.

Check this out! You'll be surprised that there are many besides me who know this truth.

So there are many besides you who believe that the "sons of God" were just humans? That explains nothing. Nor does it fit the scenario. The term "sons of God" applies to angels in other parts of scripture.
At Job 38:7 the "sons of God" are spoken of as applauding God's creation...hardly human beings. The expression is a Hebrew idiom referring to angels.

Jude 6 also refers to the angels who' forsook their own proper dwelling place', as receiving punishment.
2 Peter 2:4....
"Certainly God did not refrain from punishing the angels who sinned, but threw them into Tarʹta·rus, putting them in chains of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment."

"The angels that sinned" are clearly those who took on human flesh in Noah's day.

The serpent was a creature whom God created and who was more subtle than and other beast of the field that God created. The word translated as subtle refers to having intelligence. Which means that the serpent had intelligence above any other beast of the field. And so we read what we read.

The idea that the serpent was a fallen or rebellious angel is totally absurd. The text speaks NOTHING of the kind. And when Paul mentions the creature he says "the serpent beguiled Eve". He does not say "the Satan beguiled Eve". Paul understood that the serpent was the serpent.

The serpent was identified as the dragon, whom we know to be satan.
Revelation 12:7-12 clearly identifies who the dragon is.....
"And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him."

How can you dismiss such a clear statement? The dragon is satan and he and his angels are clearly kicked out of heaven...this has nothing to do with a mere snake in the garden.

Consider these truths:

The serpent was the serpent.. A beast of the field whom God created and who was more intelligent than any other beast of the field.
The sons of God in both Genesis 6 and Job and everywhere else in Scripture are men.

Consider those facts and you'll be on your way to the truth.

Sorry but that is not true. "Sons of men" are not "sons of God" except by adoption, as the "joint-heirs with Christ" are said to be because they are going to heaven as a new creation. "Sons of God" are created by God.....Adam was called a "son of God' because he was not born of a woman, but was a direct creation of his God.

So the Scripture tells us that God created the serpent who was more intelligent/crafty than any other beast of the field.
The JW's will tell you that a rebellious angel in heaven used the serpent as an agent to kill the man whom God created.

So what did God do? He punished the serpent to spend the rest of his days on his belly licking the dust of the earth. And He let Satan go to kill more people.

The JW's don't seem to know that it was Adam's own sin that has killed everyone.

We can read what the whole of scripture says....not just bits of it. We study the Bible carefully and we all believe the same things...united as a global brotherhood. (1 Corinthians 1:10) Who are you united with?

So why must I die for the sin of Adam? Because you have the misfortune of being IN ADAM when he sinned. What does that mean? It means you are of the same flesh as he was when he sinned. You share his same nature! And it is that very nature itself which has been condemned.

We are all held to ransom by the sin of Adam.....Romans 5:8-9; 12...how come you missed out?
"But God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more, then, since we have now been declared righteous by his blood, will we be saved through him from wrath. . . . That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned.".....What part of that scripture do you fail to comprehend?

All humans are subject to sin because of Adam......we were all condemned to death until Jesus paid the price for our redemption. Death will continue to rule us until the coming of God's Kingdom, when all the dead will be returned to life (John 5:28-29) and everything will return to the way things were meant to be in the beginning. Death will be no more neither will any pain or suffering ever be experienced again. (Revelation 21:2-4)

Oh, the light of truth. How sweet it is!

I think your light switch is broken....

 

[LightofTruth]

You are alone in your worship, which is telling. Others might share some of your views but there is no religion who teaches all of what you believe and you know it.




This is what it says in Genesis 6. Rebel angels ("sons of the true God", also mentioned in Job 1:6 which describes these sons as appearing before Jehovah in heaven) took on human form to have sex with human women...something that was deeply offensive to God and contrary to his purpose.
They produced children who had no right to exist. The immorality and violence of those days was caused by the offspring of those rebellious angels (called the Nephilim, literally meaning "fellers of men").

Why do you think God took such drastic action and flooded the world of that time, wiping out every living thing outside the ark?
There were several reasons behind it.
First: it stopped the immorality and violence that had become rampant in the world of mankind....
Second: it took out of existence the freakishly large and violent offspring that the rebel angels had produced....
Thirdly: it also forced those demon fathers back to the spirit realm where God could deal with them, because it took away any physical anchor that might have been available to them to remain on earth.
The last thing it did was to provide an illustrative parallel of the time when Jesus was to return..."just like the days of Noah"... (Matthew 24:37-39)
It probably also gave the Greeks and others with their myths of licentious gods and demi-gods.

If these were just ordinary human beings, why take such drastic action? Why would God flood the world on account of some wicked humans? One angel took out 185,000 Assyrian soldiers in just one night. (2 Kings 19:35) At the time of the flood, the earth was not widely populated.
.....so I'm sorry, but your version does not stack up from the scriptural perspective.

There is no mention of the demons ever being able to materialize again. But it didn't make them go away because God had not finished with them yet.



So there are many besides you who believe that the "sons of God" were just humans? That explains nothing. Nor does it fit the scenario. The term "sons of God" applies to angels in other parts of scripture.
At Job 38:7 the "sons of God" are spoken of as applauding God's creation...hardly human beings. The expression is a Hebrew idiom referring to angels.

Jude 6 also refers to the angels who' forsook their own proper dwelling place', as receiving punishment.
2 Peter 2:4....
"Certainly God did not refrain from punishing the angels who sinned, but threw them into Tarʹta·rus, putting them in chains of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment."

"The angels that sinned" are clearly those who took on human flesh in Noah's day.



The serpent was identified as the dragon, whom we know to be satan.
Revelation 12:7-12 clearly identifies who the dragon is.....
"And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him."

How can you dismiss such a clear statement? The dragon is satan and he and his angels are clearly kicked out of heaven...this has nothing to do with a mere snake in the garden.



Sorry but that is not true. "Sons of men" are not "sons of God" except by adoption, as the "joint-heirs with Christ" are said to be because they are going to heaven as a new creation. "Sons of God" are created by God.....Adam was called a "son of God' because he was not born of a woman, but was a direct creation of his God.



We can read what the whole of scripture says....not just bits of it. We study the Bible carefully and we all believe the same things...united as a global brotherhood. (1 Corinthians 1:10) Who are you united with?



We are all held to ransom by the sin of Adam.....Romans 5:8-9; 12...how come you missed out?
"But God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more, then, since we have now been declared righteous by his blood, will we be saved through him from wrath. . . . That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned.".....What part of that scripture do you fail to comprehend?

All humans are subject to sin because of Adam......we were all condemned to death until Jesus paid the price for our redemption. Death will continue to rule us until the coming of God's Kingdom, when all the dead will be returned to life (John 5:28-29) and everything will return to the way things were meant to be in the beginning. Death will be no more neither will any pain or suffering ever be experienced again. (Revelation 21:2-4)



I think your light switch is broken....

You don't seem to understand that a person does not need to be a part of a large gathering group to worship God. Most of the true believers were killed off shortly after Jesus went to the Father. The ones who survived had to go underground in order to escape persecution and death. They were forbidden to go to synagogues and they refused to follow all the false gods of their day. They had to secretly gather, maybe only a couple of them at a time, to read the scriptures and worship. The Christianity that evolved later was based on misunderstanding of the Scriptures. And that's what we have today. The JW's included.

So let's stick to the facts rather than make invalid arguments.

God's angels in heaven are of a different nature than that of the natural man. That's why Jesus explains that in the resurrection the natural man is to be as the angels of God in heaven. They neither marry nor do they die.
They don't die because they don't sin! They do NOT have a freewill to choose whether to sin or not. Get it!

If in the resurrection, man had a freewill to sin then the last enemy, death, could never be destroyed as Jesus says. Because there would always be the possibility of another so-called rebellion in heaven where the resurrected ones or the angels might decide that the women of earth look sexy again. And they might be inclined to go down and rape them.

I'm sorry for you if you can't see the complete absurdity in your doctrines.

Are you aware that the scripture refers to mortal men as angels? Look it up. Do some research.

Are you aware that mortal men are called spirits? Look it up do some research.

I'm not going to waste my time on close-minded stubbornness. Especially with someone who goes around telling people that God permitted His holy angels in heaven to go down and have sex with the women of earth so that God could then destroy the man and animals whom He created.

 

[LightofTruth]

Considering the fact that death is to be destroyed and therefore sin along with it(the wages of sin is death) and the fact that the angels of God and immortal men will still exist shows us that the nature of angels and immortal men are completely different than that of the natural mortal man. The angels and immortal men have what is called "spiritual bodies". Their bodies are like that of Jesus when he was resurrected. They have no natural desires which could tempt them to sin and bring about their death. Therefore, immortal angels and immortal men could NEVER have desires to sin.
The reason Adam could be tempted by his own desires and therefore sin, was because his nature was that which Paul refers to as the natural man made from the earth. Adam was the natural man who has desires which can draw and entice him to sin.

And that's exactly what happened!

Eve was made of the same natural flesh as Adam and therefore had the same natural desires of that flesh that Adam had.
It was that natural desire which we read about when Eve saw that the fruit was pleasant to the eye, good for food and desired to make one wise. And so she took it and gave to her husband.

The beast of the field, called the serpent, merely encouraged what was already present in the natural flesh of the natural man. And what was that? it's called "the lust of the flesh".

And so the serpent has come to represent the lust of the flesh of the natural man made from dust.

Jewish scholars explain it this way: They say that Adam had what they call an "evil inclination". It basically means that there was a struggle going on within Adam, and that struggle consisted of whether to obey God or to listen to his evil inclination and sin. What ended up happening was that Adam could not overcome his evil inclination (Paul calls it "the lust of the flesh") and therefore Adam sinned.

Now, it was Adam's sin that has condemned the entire human race to the death penalty. Not because we are guilty of Adam's actual sin, but because we all share that same natural nature of having lust of the flesh or an evil inclination, as Jewish scholars refer it.

So God sends His son in the same flesh and blood as Adam. The same flesh that tempts man to sin. The same flesh that draws away and entices man to sin.

However, where Adam failed, Jesus succeeded! Paul explains it nicely in the following two verses:

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Do you see what Paul says? He is speaking of the same thing in both those verses!

Jesus' death accomplished the destruction of the devil and the condemnation of the sin in the flesh. Which is the SAME thing!

Jesus overcame the world and the flesh with all its evil desires and therefore God accepted his sacrifice to atone for those sins. Where Adam failed, Jesus did NOT!

Satan and the devil is therefore the personification of the lust of the flesh of man.

With those truths in mind we can examine this more closely throughout the N.T. And the Scripture will open up to you in a way that you could never imagine. Light bulbs will be shining over you and that distinct sound that only the truth can make will be ringing aloud.

 

[Deeje]

You don't seem to understand that a person does not need to be a part of a large gathering group to worship God. Most of the true believers were killed off shortly after Jesus went to the Father. The ones who survived had to go underground in order to escape persecution and death. They were forbidden to go to synagogues and they refused to follow all the false gods of their day. They had to secretly gather, maybe only a couple of them at a time, to read the scriptures and worship. The Christianity that evolved later was based on misunderstanding of the Scriptures. And that's what we have today. The JW's included.

Christians need to be part of a single brotherhood, no matter how small the gatherings.....all are taught the same truth and if they veer off course and begin to teach what Christ did not, they were to be excommunicated.
2 John 8-11...
"Look out for yourselves, so that you do not lose the things we have worked to produce, but that you may obtain a full reward. 9 Everyone who pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. The one who does remain in this teaching is the one who has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. 11 For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works."

So where have you come from? And where do you see yourself now? I see you out on a limb all by yourself. You do not have a brotherhood who identify as Christ's "brothers" and excuses will not justify being devoid of fellow believers who share your religious convictions. If no one else believes what you believe then you do not have the truth....unless you really believe that God has singled you out to personally take Christ's message to the whole world? You don't find that a tad delusional? (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)

So let's stick to the facts rather than make invalid arguments.

Oh let's....

God's angels in heaven are of a different nature than that of the natural man. That's why Jesus explains that in the resurrection the natural man is to be as the angels of God in heaven. They neither marry nor do they die.
They don't die because they don't sin! They do NOT have a freewill to choose whether to sin or not. Get it!

Oh dear, so that's where you get the idea that angels can't materialize....yet they did. Abraham was visited by three angels in human form who were sent to tell Abraham that Sarah would have a son in her old age. (Genesis 18) Two of these angels went on to Sodom where Lot and his family lived, to rescue them before it was destroyed. It was a very immoral city and the men surrounded Lot's house because they wanted to have sex with his visitors. Lot even offered his own daughters to the mob as a distraction and in deference to his esteemed visitors. (perhaps knowing that homosexual sex was what the mob desired, not sex with women) In each case the visitors ate and drank what was provided by their hosts because it was an expectation and a custom to receive visitors hospitably.They appeared for all intents and purposes to be human.

Angels are spirits but they have ability to materialize....the Bible confirms this. They don't marry because they do not reproduce, but they can sin because satan did, as an abuse of his own free will. Jesus spoke of satan as a real entity and called him "the father of the lie" referring back to Eden. (John 8:44) If Jesus was tempted by the devil and it is only a desire of the flesh, then who made the offer that formed the basis of the temptation?

The devil and his angels are clearly dispatched in Revelation 12:7-12 from "heaven". Were there sinners in heaven? Apparently there were for a time....
"And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him."

So the devil has his "angels" and they were in heaven.....and they got evicted.....the devil is identified as the dragon....."the original serpent"...satan the devil. Does Michael the Archangel battle with a fictitious figure along with his minions?
......and this confirms what Jesus said was the destination of the "goats"....(Matthew 25:41)

So how does your story stack up?

If in the resurrection, man had a freewill to sin then the last enemy, death, could never be destroyed as Jesus says. Because there would always be the possibility of another so-called rebellion in heaven where the resurrected ones or the angels might decide that the women of earth look sexy again. And they might be inclined to go down and rape them.

Do you understand which death is being referred to here? It is Adamic death...IOW, the death caused by the sin of Adam...the one that causes us to age....succumb to sin, illness and death.
But there is another death that is never dispensed with. Its called "gehenna" or the "lake of fire".....which means "the second death"...did you not know that there are two "deaths"? Someone needs to do some research apparently....
Adamic death is the one from which we can be resurrected....but "the second death" never goes away. This is eternal death reserved for any who might abuse their free will in the future.

The prophesy in Isaiah about the coming new world says....

“No more will there be an infant from that place who lives but a few days,
Nor an old man who fails to live out his days.

For anyone who dies at a hundred will be considered a mere boy,
And the sinner will be cursed, even though he is a hundred years of age." (Isaiah 65:20)

Death can still occur but it will be the kind that results from deliberate disobedience, like it did with Adam.

 

[Deeje]

I'm sorry for you if you can't see the complete absurdity in your doctrines.

Are you aware that the scripture refers to mortal men as angels? Look it up. Do some research.

Are you aware that mortal men are called spirits? Look it up do some research.

I'm not going to waste my time on close-minded stubbornness. Especially with someone who goes around telling people that God permitted His holy angels in heaven to go down and have sex with the women of earth so that God could then destroy the man and animals whom He created.

LOL...you don't seem to understand that your own fabricated doctrines do not hold water scripturally.
They might sound convincing to you, but to whom else do they mean anything?

The more you boast about your knowledge of scripture, the more you demonstrate how little you really know. Which is a shame.....because I do not doubt you sincerity at all.

Considering the fact that death is to be destroyed and therefore sin along with it(the wages of sin is death) and the fact that the angels of God and immortal men will still exist shows us that the nature of angels and immortal men are completely different than that of the natural mortal man. The angels and immortal men have what is called "spiritual bodies". Their bodies are like that of Jesus when he was resurrected. They have no natural desires which could tempt them to sin and bring about their death. Therefore, immortal angels and immortal men could NEVER have desires to sin.

Since God can destroy the angels, it proves that they are not immortal. That they have no natural cause of death demonstrates that they were a higher life form than humans but each had free will and could abuse it. Humans had no natural cause of death either (in the beginning) but they were not immortal. The fact that both abused their free will proves that they can choose to sin, which is an exercise of free will.

Angels sinned by disobedience, just like humans did....that is why God has taken so long to bring this object lesson to its complete conclusion. It has taken place in universal time, not earth time because it involves the angels more so than it does us. The human race was hijacked and taken hostage by an angel who made himself a thief and a liar by his own free will.

Here again you betray a limited understanding. Immortality and everlasting life are two completely different things.
Angels are not immortal if they can die.....humans of flesh and blood are dependent on external things to keep living....air water and food, but spirit beings do not....yet neither were created immortal. Immortality means you cannot die, whereas everlasting life has provisos.....to retain life you must obey the Creator.

The reason Adam could be tempted by his own desires and therefore sin, was because his nature was that which Paul refers to as the natural man made from the earth. Adam was the natural man who has desires which can draw and entice him to sin.

I hope you understand that the sinful nature in man was an inheritance that was not our fault. (Romans 5:12)
In bringing the perpetrators to justice, God provided the ransom demanded in the situation....an equivalent life was to be offered for the life Adam stole from his children. God sent Jesus to provide the ransom and made possible a resurrection for all who have paid sin's wages.

What Jesus did not die for was the deliberate acts of wrongdoing by those who knew better. Wilful and deliberate sinners like Adam and his wife and Judas Iscariot will never see life again. The Pharisees of Jesus' day too will be cast into "gehenna".....everlasting death...a place of no return. There was no basis to forgive them. They saw with their own eyes the operation of God's spirit and denied it.

And that's exactly what happened!

Eve was made of the same natural flesh as Adam and therefore had the same natural desires of that flesh that Adam had.
It was that natural desire which we read about when Eve saw that the fruit was pleasant to the eye, good for food and desired to make one wise. And so she took it and gave to her husband.

The beast of the field, called the serpent, merely encouraged what was already present in the natural flesh of the natural man. And what was that? it's called "the lust of the flesh".

If that is what you think then you are basically accusing God of setting the humans up to fail. Why would he give humanity natural components of their nature that would surely bring death.
If you go back to Eden you will see that "the lust of the flesh" was first demonstrated only after they had disobeyed God's command. The covering of their bodies meant that sinful thoughts were now invading their consciousness. Those sinful thoughts were not there before.

What tempted Eve was self interest. She was the 'newby'....the most vulnerable of the pair and Adam had waited a long time for a mate of his own. The devil knew that by targeting her, he would get to the real focus of his attention....Adam. As family head, he was responsible for what went on in his household and he knew better. By suggesting to the woman that the forbidden fruit would be of benefit to her, he lied. When Adam came along ans realized what she had done, his loyalties were divided and he was conquered as a result. Instead of castigating his disobedient wife, he chose to side with her, thus condemning all of their children to a life of sin and death.

And so the serpent has come to represent the lust of the flesh of the natural man made from dust.

There is so much more to it than that...but you will hang onto your errors no matter what is said to you....

 

[Deeje]

Jewish scholars explain it this way: They say that Adam had what they call an "evil inclination". It basically means that there was a struggle going on within Adam, and that struggle consisted of whether to obey God or to listen to his evil inclination and sin. What ended up happening was that Adam could not overcome his evil inclination (Paul calls it "the lust of the flesh") and therefore Adam sinned.

And you will take Jewish scholars' word for things pertaining to sin? You do understand that the Jews really don't have anything to add to our understanding of anything. Their whole history was a serial denial of the things that God's word taught them. I'll pass on the Jewish scholars when it comes to interpreting scripture, thank you.

However, where Adam failed, Jesus succeeded! Paul explains it nicely in the following two verses:

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

So what is this verse saying as opposed to what you think it is saying?

Why was Jesus sent from heaven to play the role of redeemer? If all it required was "flesh and blood" why not anyone else who was magnanimous?
If all men still die, then how has the devil been destroyed?

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Do you see what Paul says? He is speaking of the same thing in both those verses!

OK, so what was Paul saying?

That the Law was condemning the Jews because the weakness of their own flesh would not let them keep it perfectly. So what was the purpose of giving a perfect Law to imperfect people?

Galatians 3:19...
"Why, then, the Law? It was added to make transgressions manifest, until the offspring should arrive to whom the promise had been made; and it was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator."

Romans 7:7...
"What, then, are we to say? Is the Law sin? Certainly not! Really, I would not have come to know sin had it not been for the Law. For example, I would not have known covetousness if the Law had not said: “You must not covet."

So the Law highlighted the fact that sinful humans needed the "offspring" "to whom the promise was made" to come and take the Law away by fulfilling it and making forgiveness possible without the Law condemning them every day. Paul called the Law a "curse" for that reason. (Galatians 3:10) It was a daily reminder of their need for a savior.

Jesus' death accomplished the destruction of the devil and the condemnation of the sin in the flesh. Which is the SAME thing!

Jesus overcame the world and the flesh with all its evil desires and therefore God accepted his sacrifice to atone for those sins. Where Adam failed, Jesus did NOT!

Satan and the devil is therefore the personification of the lust of the flesh of man.

I agree that Jesus succeeded where Adam failed, but I can't accept that Jesus death accomplished the destruction of the devil, because so much scripture argues against that theory. The devil is not a mere personification because Jesus never referred to him as such. 1 John 5:19 tells us that "the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one"......not the wicked "ones". The devil is a real entity, supported by those who follow him into false worship, disobedience and death. He has been cast out of heaven with his minions and will test us to the limit until "the end" of this wicked system comes.

The devil has not as yet been conquered except by those who resist his temptations. If the devil was gone...sin would be gone....it clearly isn't.

With those truths in mind we can examine this more closely throughout the N.T. And the Scripture will open up to you in a way that you could never imagine. Light bulbs will be shining over you and that distinct sound that only the truth can make will be ringing aloud.

Oh dear, not only is your light switch broken but all your light bulbs need changing as well.
I'd get some help for that tinnitus ASAP.....

 

[LightofTruth]

Christians need to be part of a single brotherhood, no matter how small the gatherings.....all are taught the same truth and if they veer off course and begin to teach what Christ did not, they were to be excommunicated.
2 John 8-11...
"Look out for yourselves, so that you do not lose the things we have worked to produce, but that you may obtain a full reward. 9 Everyone who pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. The one who does remain in this teaching is the one who has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. 11 For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works."

So where have you come from? And where do you see yourself now? I see you out on a limb all by yourself. You do not have a brotherhood who identify as Christ's "brothers" and excuses will not justify being devoid of fellow believers who share your religious convictions. If no one else believes what you believe then you do not have the truth....unless you really believe that God has singled you out to personally take Christ's message to the whole world? You don't find that a tad delusional? (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)

If the scriptures could not be reasonably understood then I'd throw the book in the trash because it would be worthless for me. That means that I'm not going to compromise what is reasonably understood by me so that I can have fellowship with others.
If I thought that the JW's doctrines were both reasonable and Scriptural then I join with them.

Oh let's....



Oh dear, so that's where you get the idea that angels can't materialize....yet they did. Abraham was visited by three angels in human form who were sent to tell Abraham that Sarah would have a son in her old age. (Genesis 18) Two of these angels went on to Sodom where Lot and his family lived, to rescue them before it was destroyed. It was a very immoral city and the men surrounded Lot's house because they wanted to have sex with his visitors. Lot even offered his own daughters to the mob as a distraction and in deference to his esteemed visitors. (perhaps knowing that homosexual sex was what the mob desired, not sex with women) In each case the visitors ate and drank what was provided by their hosts because it was an expectation and a custom to receive visitors hospitably.They appeared for all intents and purposes to be human.

Angels are spirits but they have ability to materialize....the Bible confirms this. They don't marry because they do not reproduce, but they can sin because satan did, as an abuse of his own free will. Jesus spoke of satan as a real entity and called him "the father of the lie" referring back to Eden. (John 8:44) If Jesus was tempted by the devil and it is only a desire of the flesh, then who made the offer that formed the basis of the temptation?

Now you have another problem because the Scripture nowhere says that angels materialize. What they do in fact say is that man's eyes are opened to see the angels. For example, in Num 22:21 we read that God OPENED THE EYES of Balaam so that the angel of the Lord could be seen by him. They do not say that the angel materialized so that Balaam could see the angel. The donkey's eyes had already been opened but Balaam's eyes had not yet been opened.
Plus, man is made in the image of "us". "Us" refers to more than one. Therefore angels. The word "image" refers to a physical representation. In the O.T. the word is used to describe the making of idols. The Jews were forbidden to worship the works of man's hands nor bow down to them. The Greek translation uses the word eikon. it has the same meaning. See Rom 1:23

The devil and his angels are clearly dispatched in Revelation 12:7-12 from "heaven". Were there sinners in heaven? Apparently there were for a time....
"And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him."

So the devil has his "angels" and they were in heaven.....and they got evicted.....the devil is identified as the dragon....."the original serpent"...satan the devil. Does Michael the Archangel battle with a fictitious figure along with his minions?
......and this confirms what Jesus said was the destination of the "goats"....(Matthew 25:41)

So how does your story stack up?

The JW's seem to understand that "heaven" does not always refer to the heaven where God dwells. And this is the case here.
You do realize that God's heavenly host works behind the scenes right? The reason the Jews had no one to fear was because God would fight for them and no enemy, no matter how large, could win if God was with them.
The same thing is happening there.

 

[LightofTruth]

And you will take Jewish scholars' word for things pertaining to sin? You do understand that the Jews really don't have anything to add to our understanding of anything. Their whole history was a serial denial of the things that God's word taught them. I'll pass on the Jewish scholars when it comes to interpreting scripture, thank you.

What do you think, Jewish people are stupid and don't know anything about their own Scriptures? REALLY!

There's a MAJOR reason why I would NEVER join your group. Any group that thinks they are the only ones who know anything are a group who knows nothing.

I hooked up with this one group awhile back and I soon discovered that they thought their group were the only ones who knew anything about the Scripture. I agreed with much of what they taught but I wasn't so prideful to think that I had all the answers like they and the JW's do.

I'm not afraid to hear what anyone has to say because I have learned how to compare it with the Scripture. The only things that group could do was read the writings of those of their own group.

I gain insight from others and have learned how to listen. The JW's have shut themselves off. sad.

 

[Deeje]

If the scriptures could not be reasonably understood then I'd throw the book in the trash because it would be worthless for me.

The scriptures are twisted by you to mean what you want them to mean.....would the scriptures become worthless to you because they didn't teach what you think they should? You can't wait around for others to come to you....you have to find the ones whom Jesus appointed as his "faithful and discreet slave"...these alone have the right food "at the proper time". (Matthew 24:45) They are appointed to "feed Jesus' sheep" as he told Peter. (John 21:15-17) There are only two tables at which to feed....(1 Corinthians 10:21) We have to choose the right one.

Christianity is not a 'one man band'.....
You have to have others who are of like mind and who believe what you believe. (1 Corinthians 1:10)....God does not just reveal his truth to one man in one part of one nation in the world......he never has, and he never will. So what does that mean for you?

Jesus gave his disciples a commission...to "preach the good news of the Kingdom in all the inhabited earth as a witness to all the nations" before God brings an "end" to this present wicked system of things. (Matthew 28:19-20) How can you fulfill that role if you are alone? Who are well known for preaching in all the world? Are the churches of Christendom doing it? Not in my neighborhood they aren't....in fact I have never had a single one call on me to tell me about God's kingdom...have you? This work was to be done right up until "the end". (Matthew 24:14) Jesus sent his disciples out to preach...it wasn't a recommendation...it was a command. And it didn't matter if the people listened or not....the message had to be preached. (Matthew 10:11-14) It was for a witness.....like it or not. No one will be able to say..."no one told me about this".

That means that I'm not going to compromise what is reasonably understood by me so that I can have fellowship with others.
If I thought that the JW's doctrines were both reasonable and Scriptural then I join with them.

I understand that...but if I were in your shoes, with the zeal that you show for the word of God and how much effort you have put into your study and research, yet you have not found your spiritual home. You have not found your brotherhood. If its the truth, it must be there. But another vital component in gaining that truth is the operation of God's spirit. Jesus said that no one can come to the Father unless the Father "draws" them... (John 6:44; 65).....an understanding of the truth needs God's spirit to reveal it to a willing heart.
A willing heart is not closed, but wide open to hear what God is saying. If what you are saying is drowning him out, you will never hear what his messengers are trying to tell you.

Now you have another problem because the Scripture nowhere says that angels materialize. What they do in fact say is that man's eyes are opened to see the angels. For example, in Num 22:21 we read that God OPENED THE EYES of Balaam so that the angel of the Lord could be seen by him. They do not say that the angel materialized so that Balaam could see the angel. The donkey's eyes had already been opened but Balaam's eyes had not yet been opened.

Please understand what the scriptures say. These men who came in to Abraham and Lot, were fed food that was prepared by their hosts. They ate and drank, so they were not apparitions. They led Lot and his family out of Sodom by the hand. They were in material form.

The incident with Balaam's donkey was a one off.....it was designed to teach the man a lesson. But the appearance of angels as messengers...like Gabriel who appeared to Daniel and to Mary 500 years later. were also in human form. Angels sometimes appeared in visions with wings, but when they were in material form they looked just like ordinary men. There were angels at Jesus' empty tomb. There were also angels who appeared as Jesus was ascending to heaven to reassure his apostles.

Since angels are spirits, and God's law forbade communication with spirits, (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) the angels always appeared as men, so as not to offend the Jews by making them break God's law. Even the resurrected Jesus appeared in material form after his spiritual resurrection. He had bones and flesh. On one occasion when he broke bread, once the disciples recognized him he simply vanished before their eyes. (Luke 24:30-31)

I believe you need more information on this and a whole lot of other things.

 

[Deeje]

Plus, man is made in the image of "us". "Us" refers to more than one. Therefore angels. The word "image" refers to a physical representation. In the O.T. the word is used to describe the making of idols. The Jews were forbidden to worship the works of man's hands nor bow down to them. The Greek translation uses the word eikon. it has the same meaning. See Rom 1:23

Actually, God was consulting his "firstborn" son who assisted him in the creation of all things.
Colossians 1:15-17 explains that God used his son as his chief agent of creation, working alongside his Father in forming all that is in heaven and on earth. (Proverbs 8:30-31)

The JW's seem to understand that "heaven" does not always refer to the heaven where God dwells.

Context tells us what "heaven" is spoken about. The heaven where war broke out is the same heaven spoken about in Job where the angels took their station before Jehovah and satan entered right in among them. Satan was evicted, along with all his cronies and now they are confined to the earth causing as much havoc as they can because they know their time is almost up. (Revelation 12:7-12) An abyss of inactivity is waiting for them whilst the Kingdom under Christ's leadership restores mankind to an approved relationship with God and transforms this earth into the paradise it was meant to be.(Revelation 20:1-3)

Once the earth is back to where God wanted it to be in the beginning, then Jesus hands the reigns over to his God and Father......mission accomplished. (1 Corinthians 15:24)

And this is the case here.
You do realize that God's heavenly host works behind the scenes right? The reason the Jews had no one to fear was because God would fight for them and no enemy, no matter how large, could win if God was with them.
The same thing is happening there.

As long as God's people obeyed him, they never had anything to fear....but they kept tripping up and becoming disobedient, incurring God's anger. The angels are always busy working behind the scenes, especially today as the preaching of the Kingdom is nearing its completion. The angels have been actively directing people to the Kingdom message

“And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare as glad tidings to those who dwell on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people.” (Revelation 14:6)

"Midheaven" here depicts a position or vantage point just above the earth where all can be observed. The angels know who is seeking and praying for the truth and they guide them to God's people who have come out of "Babylon the great" and are helping others to do the same before she goes down permanently into oblivion. God is about to judge her. (Revelation 18:4-5)

What do you think, Jewish people are stupid and don't know anything about their own Scriptures? REALLY!

I didn't say anything about them "knowing" their scripture...I said "interpreting" it was their problem. Jesus repeatedly called attention to this, telling the Pharisees that they they shut up the Kingdom before men and prevented others from attaining a place there. (Matthew 23.) Their teachings were supposedly based on God's word but Jesus drew attention to the Talmud as a problem not the Tanakh.

The traditions of their forefathers had replaced the scriptures as Jesus said in Matthew 15:7-9....
"You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 8 ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”

Christendom has fallen into the same trap.

I'm not afraid to hear what anyone has to say because I have learned how to compare it with the Scripture. The only things that group could do was read the writings of those of their own group.

I gain insight from others and have learned how to listen. The JW's have shut themselves off. sad.

You fail to understand that separation was foretold for this time of the end. We are to "get out of Babylon the great" and separate ourselves from false religious ideas introduced by men. The scriptures are opened up by God's spirit on the whole body of believers and their conduct in keeping separate from the world would make them unpopular. (John 15:18-21; James 4:4)

Be careful how you listen, because you have not yet found your 'brethren'....Jesus said we would "know the truth and the truth would set us free".....all of us would be enjoying the same freedom from false religious doctrines and ideas.
The Jews couldn't see the truth even though it was staring them in the face. Sometimes its hiding in plain sight.

 

[LightofTruth]

Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but held them captive in Tartarus with chains of darkness and handed them over to be kept for judgment, (LEB)

Jud 1:6 And the angels who did not keep to their own domain but deserted their proper dwelling place, he has kept in eternal bonds under deep gloom for the judgment of the great day, (LEB)

Obviously, Peter and Jude are speaking of Genesis 6 where the sons of God left their proper dwelling place and mingled themselves with the daughters of men who dwelt elsewhere.

The first question is, who were the sons of God who sinned to the extent that God decided to destroy all man whom he created?

The obvious answer is that those sons of God were mortal men. If they were angels of God in heaven who supposedly later changed their name to demons then why does the scripture say they were not spared?

The JW's will tell you that those angels were indeed spared and that the captivity they are in refers to a moral sense. In other words, the angels lives were spared and God is now holding them morally depraved.

Another view is that those angels and sons of God were men.

Is that possible? Certainly it's possible. But not only that, it is much more in line with all of Scripture.

Obviously, sons of God as being mortal men is found very often in both the O.T. and N.T. so we need not argue that point.
What may not be so obvious though, is that mortal men are also referred to as angels. The word angel basically means messenger. and very often in Scripture when it is obvious that the word refers to a man or men it is translated as 'messenger'. John the Baptist was an angel/messenger sent from God.

With that in mind, we can see that those sons of God were to be the messengers of God. They were to be the ones to follow the WAY of God.
But instead, they decided to follow the ways of man and to mingle themselves with the daughters of man.
God knew what would happen if His sons did this. They would be corrupted by the ways of man and fall into all sorts of abominations.
So, because God's sons corrupted His WAY God decided to destroy the man whom He created. As it says: "the imagination of his heart was only evil continually."
So God's sons were drowned in the deep darkness of the flood waters. They were NOT spared. And they are being held there in that abyss until they will be raised to face judgment.

God's holy angels in heaven do not sin because they do not die. Just as Jesus said. "they do not die". They do not die because they do not sin. The wages of sin is death.

So if you want to believe the nonsense of the JW's go right ahead, but for me, I have much more sense than that. Glory be to God.

 

[LightofTruth]

How are the JW's going to correct or rebuke Jesus when he says that God's angels in heaven don't die?

 

[LightofTruth]

From the JW files:
https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/w20140815/jesus-sadducees-marriage-after-resurrection/

"'Neither can they die anymore.” Jesus did not say: “They will not die anymore.” Rather, he said: “Neither can they die anymore.” Other translations render that phrase “they are not subject to death any longer” and “death has no more power over them.” Anointed ones who finish their earthly course in faithfulness are raised to heaven and given immortality—endless, indestructible life. (1 Cor. 15:53, 54) Death no longer has any power over those who receive a heavenly resurrection."

When Jesus spoke those words he included the part about being equal to the angels.

"Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels;".

In this context the word "for" is giving the reason why those in the resurrection do not die anymore. Jesus is explaining that they don't die anymore because they are equal to the angels of God.

if dying no more is the reason why they are equal to the angels of God, then the angels of God DON'T sin! Because if they did they could not be said to NOT die.

So why are the JW's telling people that there was a war in heaven in 1914 whereby sinning angels were kicked out of heaven?

it's amazing how any intelligent person could fall for such nonsense. really.

Ah, but I know of a much more reasonable and Scriptural interpretation which does NOT contradict the words of the man Jesus Christ.

 

[Deeje]

Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but held them captive in Tartarus with chains of darkness and handed them over to be kept for judgment, (LEB)

Jud 1:6 And the angels who did not keep to their own domain but deserted their proper dwelling place, he has kept in eternal bonds under deep gloom for the judgment of the great day, (LEB)

Obviously, Peter and Jude are speaking of Genesis 6 where the sons of God left their proper dwelling place and mingled themselves with the daughters of men who dwelt elsewhere.

The first question is, who were the sons of God who sinned to the extent that God decided to destroy all man whom he created?

These "sons of God" were the same "sons of God" who witnessed creation and shouted applause,recorded in Job 38:7 ....they were "angels", (according to the Tanakh) not humans because humans were the last part of that creation.

So, "the sons of God" were not "sons of men". Adam was called a "son of God" because he was created by God, not born of a woman. Jesus was a son of God because he was also created by God.

Job also mentions "sons of the true God" entering in to take their station before God and satan entered right among them. Job 1:6 in the Tanakh reads..."Now the day came about, and the angels of God came to stand beside the Lord, and the Adversary, too, came among them."

If the Jews believe these were angels, then why do you say they were not? Wasn't it you who said that the Jews should know their own scripture? They'd certainly know what their own language says....?

The obvious answer is that those sons of God were mortal men. If they were angels of God in heaven who supposedly later changed their name to demons then why does the scripture say they were not spared?

Are you serious?
The demons were materialized here on earth indulging in the pleasures of the flesh....something completely unnatural for angels.....they were not in heaven. Their offspring were human hybrids (because there is no mention of them producing offspring) and they perished in the flood along with all the people who were acting as wickedly as the Nephilim. The demons dematerialized and went back to the spirit real because if they had stayed in their human bodies, they would have perished. They can use material things as anchors here on earth. Did you not know this? Its why God flooded the world...leaving them nowhere to go.

God dealt with them by placing them under restraint. There is no mention of them being able to materialize ever again. It was not time

The JW's will tell you that those angels were indeed spared and that the captivity they are in refers to a moral sense. In other words, the angels lives were spared and God is now holding them morally depraved.

You've got that a bit muddled I'm afraid. The angels were placed in a restrained state because God was not finished with them yet. Do you not have any idea why the demons even exist? They were certainly very active when Jesus walked the earth.

 

[Deeje]

Another view is that those angels and sons of God were men.

Is that possible? Certainly it's possible. But not only that, it is much more in line with all of Scripture.

In your interpretation perhaps, but that view is not shared by those who know what the Bible teaches.

Do you have no big picture at all? No clue about what God is doing here?

Obviously, sons of God as being mortal men is found very often in both the O.T. and N.T. so we need not argue that point.

Provide us with the scriptural back up and lets talk about it....
There are only two ways that humans can be "sons of God"......they have to be Adam or Jesus, (both of whom were created by God) or those whom God "adopts" as his spiritual "sons" because they will be taken to heaven to rule with Christ in his Kingdom....only these Christians go to heaven...the rest of us will benefit from their rulership over the earth.

What may not be so obvious though, is that mortal men are also referred to as angels. The word angel basically means messenger. and very often in Scripture when it is obvious that the word refers to a man or men it is translated as 'messenger'. John the Baptist was an angel/messenger sent from God.

I do not believe that there is ambiguity in the scriptures when speaking of angels or humans.....as messengers.
Where will I find a naturally produced human called an angel? I don't know if people could tell if the angels who materialized were much different to ordinary men? If they acted as humans (eating and drinking) perhaps it was hard to tell? But he scriptures are specific about which is which.

With that in mind, we can see that those sons of God were to be the messengers of God. They were to be the ones to follow the WAY of God.
But instead, they decided to follow the ways of man and to mingle themselves with the daughters of man.
God knew what would happen if His sons did this. They would be corrupted by the ways of man and fall into all sorts of abominations.
So, because God's sons corrupted His WAY God decided to destroy the man whom He created. As it says: "the imagination of his heart was only evil continually."
So God's sons were drowned in the deep darkness of the flood waters. They were NOT spared. And they are being held there in that abyss until they will be raised to face judgment.

What? That is a very twisted version of events. Where does Noah fit into your scenario?
Why don't you allow the scriptures to tell their own story? Its nothing like yours.

God's holy angels in heaven do not sin because they do not die. Just as Jesus said. "they do not die". They do not die because they do not sin. The wages of sin is death.

The angels, like the first humans had no natural cause of death. But angels can die like we can, because God can take them out of existence. They were not created to be immortal and neither were we. Everlasting life is conditional, whereas immortality means an indestructible life.
God does not give immortality to creatures of free will....that would be a recipe for disaster. By our obedience to God we earn the right to keep living.

So if you want to believe the nonsense of the JW's go right ahead, but for me, I have much more sense than that. Glory be to God.

That is indeed your choice.....but you will never be able to claim ignorance......will you?

How are the JW's going to correct or rebuke Jesus when he says that God's angels in heaven don't die?

You have the bull by the horns again....the angels do not die of natural causes, but like us, are subject to death if they disobey their Creator.
Satan is an angel who will be thrown into the "lake of fire" along with all his cronies...but not until one final test before God destroys them forever. Nothing ever comes out of the lake of fire.

The apostle John wrote his Revelation at the close of the first century. The resurrected Jesus gave him this vision of the future.
Revelation 20:1-3 tells us...
"And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 He seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for 1,000 years. 3 And he hurled him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not mislead the nations anymore until the 1,000 years were ended. After this he must be released for a little while."

The devil and his angels are not in the abyss yet. They have been thrown down to the earth where they are wreaking havoc right now. (Revelation 12:7-12) The devil's "short period of time" is almost up.

 

[Deeje]

"'Neither can they die anymore.” Jesus did not say: “They will not die anymore.” Rather, he said: “Neither can they die anymore.” Other translations render that phrase “they are not subject to death any longer” and “death has no more power over them.” Anointed ones who finish their earthly course in faithfulness are raised to heaven and given immortality—endless, indestructible life. (1 Cor. 15:53, 54) Death no longer has any power over those who receive a heavenly resurrection."

When Jesus spoke those words he included the part about being equal to the angels.

"Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels;".

1 Corinthians 15:35-57.....here is the whole passage in context....
"Nevertheless, someone will say: “How are the dead to be raised up? Yes, with what sort of body are they coming?” 36 You unreasonable person! What you sow is not made alive unless first it dies. 37 And as for what you sow, you sow, not the body that will develop, but just a bare grain, whether of wheat or of some other kind of seed; 38 but God gives it a body just as it has pleased him, and gives to each of the seeds its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same flesh, but there is one of mankind, there is another flesh of cattle, another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40 And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort. 41 The glory of the sun is one sort, and the glory of the moon is another, and the glory of the stars is another; in fact, one star differs from another star in glory.

42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised up in power. 44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth and made of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust; and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we will bear also the image of the heavenly one.


50 But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed. 53 For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will take place: “Death is swallowed up forever.” 55 “Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?” 56 The sting producing death is sin, and the power for sin is the Law. 57 But thanks to God, for he gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!"

What is this saying?

 

[LightofTruth]

The debate about who were the sons of God in Genesis 6 who married and die has been going on for a long time.

Jesus settles the debate by telling us that angels of God neither marry or die.

 

[LightofTruth]

1 Corinthians 15:35-57.....here is the whole passage in context....
"Nevertheless, someone will say: “How are the dead to be raised up? Yes, with what sort of body are they coming?” 36 You unreasonable person! What you sow is not made alive unless first it dies. 37 And as for what you sow, you sow, not the body that will develop, but just a bare grain, whether of wheat or of some other kind of seed; 38 but God gives it a body just as it has pleased him, and gives to each of the seeds its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same flesh, but there is one of mankind, there is another flesh of cattle, another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40 And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort. 41 The glory of the sun is one sort, and the glory of the moon is another, and the glory of the stars is another; in fact, one star differs from another star in glory.

42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised up in power. 44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth and made of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust; and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we will bear also the image of the heavenly one.


50 But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed. 53 For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will take place: “Death is swallowed up forever.” 55 “Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?” 56 The sting producing death is sin, and the power for sin is the Law. 57 But thanks to God, for he gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!"

What is this saying?

Paul is saying that the faithful dead and the faithful living (at Christ's return) will be given a spiritual body like the one Jesus now has. It is no longer subject to death. They will be as the angels of God in heaven.

 

[Deeje]

The debate about who were the sons of God in Genesis 6 who married and die has been going on for a long time.

Jesus settles the debate by telling us that angels of God neither marry or die.

Jesus was referring to the faithful angels who did not join satan in rebellion...these do not die of any natural causes (as was the case with the first humans.)...and they do not marry because they have no need to reproduce....they are Asexual. The chosen ones will also become Asexual spirit beings.

The rebel angels did indeed materialize and take human women ("all who they chose", whether they were married to others or not) and indulged themselves in the pleasures of the flesh, producing monstrous children who, like their fathers, were immoral bullies and violent thugs. (The Nephilim were literally "fellers of men") If these were mere humans then why the drastic measures to rid the world of their conduct and influence? Why would God tell Noah to build an ark to house all the animal kinds through a global deluge and eliminate all life in the whole world just to eradicate a few rebellious humans? It only makes sense if these were not human perpetrators of that immorality and violence.

Paul is saying that the faithful dead and the faithful living (at Christ's return) will be given a spiritual body like the one Jesus now has. It is no longer subject to death. They will be as the angels of God in heaven.

Yes but who is Paul speaking about? He mentions those "dead in Christ" who will "rise first". If these ones "rise first", who will 'rise second'?

Who is Jesus talking about in John 5:28-29? These resurrected ones are "both the righteous and the unrighteous" and are all raised from the same place......so how does that work? Only the righteous are promised life in heaven...."faithful unto death"....so where are the unrighteous going? What does it mean to "be raised to a resurrection of judgment"?

I believe that you are running out of argument.....it's what you don't address that tells the story....do you really want to know the truth, or are you happy just believing what you think is right, all by yourself? Where are your brothers? If you can't identify them then how can you have the truth?

 

[LightofTruth]

Jesus was referring to the faithful angels who did not join satan in rebellion...these do not die of any natural causes (as was the case with the first humans.)...and they do not marry because they have no need to reproduce....they are Asexual. The chosen ones will also become Asexual spirit beings.

It's easy to spot false doctrines. One of the most obviuos ways is when people ADD their own ideas to the text.
For example, I was showing a trinitarian all the verses where is says that Jesus died and that he (himself) was raised from the dead. The trinitarian thought that it was only Jesus' body that died. So, in every case where the text explicitly says that Jesus himself died and was raised from the dead, the trinitarain had to add the word "body".

"Jesus didn't die, only his body died" and "only his body was raised from the dead".

What the trinitarian was doing was adding his own ideas to the text by changing what the text actually says. You are doing the same thing here.

You are claiming that Jesus is referring only to faithful heavenly angels (as if there were any other kind).

However, Jesus does not say what you say. He says "equal to the angels", not "equal to only the faithful angels"

Adam died because he sinned. He did not have a spiritual body. His body was made from the earth. if he had a spiritual body like the angels of God and those to be resurrected immortal, then he could not have been tempted to sin.

The rebel angels did indeed materialize and take human women ("all who they chose", whether they were married to others or not) and indulged themselves in the pleasures of the flesh, producing monstrous children who, like their fathers, were immoral bullies and violent thugs. (The Nephilim were literally "fellers of men") If these were mere humans then why the drastic measures to rid the world of their conduct and influence? Why would God tell Noah to build an ark to house all the animal kinds through a global deluge and eliminate all life in the whole world just to eradicate a few rebellious humans? It only makes sense if these were not human perpetrators of that immorality and violence.

I think it's the book of Enoch where those "Giants" are said to have been 450 feet tall. yikes! that's big.

The text indicates that the Nephilim were there, and afterwards, when the sons of God took those women. The text also seems to be added as a reason why the sons of God may have been so attracted to those men and their daughters. They are said to be "men of renown".

Your ideas come straight from Greek mythology.

Yes but who is Paul speaking about? He mentions those "dead in Christ" who will "rise first". If these ones "rise first", who will 'rise second'?

The dead are those in the grave. The mortal are those alive at his coming. The dead rise first. The mortal are changed in the twinkling of an eye. They all will have spiritual bodies like Jesus which never die because they never sin nor are they tempted to sin because they are no longer of natural flesh and blood made of dust. they have been born of the Spirit.

There is no resurrection of the unfaithful at that time. It is only the faithful who are to come with Christ to execute God's judgments upon his people and the nations.

And that's where the book of Revelation starts.

The first resurrection of Revelation is of those who died during the tribulation of those times. Those who did not worship the beast and his image. They were persecuted and killed for their faith by the Red Dragon king who is called Satan, the devil, that old serpent. He is also referred to as the man of lawlessness who will be reveal before Jesus and his saints begin to execute the judgments of God upon him and his angels(men).

Who is Jesus talking about in John 5:28-29? These resurrected ones are "both the righteous and the unrighteous" and are all raised from the same place......so how does that work? Only the righteous are promised life in heaven...."faithful unto death"....so where are the unrighteous going? What does it mean to "be raised to a resurrection of judgment"?

Not only are the faithful raised, but the unfaithful ones too. Like those sons of God who died in the flood. When they are raised to be judged and face a second death, they will see all the faithful ones with Jesus. Then they will be hurled into the lake of fire.

I believe that you are running out of argument.....it's what you don't address that tells the story....do you really want to know the truth, or are you happy just believing what you think is right, all by yourself? Where are your brothers? If you can't identify them then how can you have the truth?

Actually, I'm not by myself because the word of God is living. Plus, I don't have to agree with all those sects out there who have to agree to their statements of faith in order to have fellowship. I'm not bound by that. I'm free to study the Bible in the way I believe it should be studied. By allowing the words of it to interpret themselves. It's called comparing the spiritual with the spiritual. or, the text with other text.

The book of Revelation is highly Hebrew in its interpretation. That is, it draws from the prophets of old more than any other book of the N.T.
In order to understand it, one must look to the Hebrew Scripture. It was all said before.