The Devil's Toolbox

[LightofTruth]

Death is the last enemy defeated. When death is defeated there will be no more mortals alive. A mortal dies.
That's when Jesus work of redemption is complete and he hands over the kingdom back to the Father.

The only ones left will be those who have spiritual bodies that never die. They are immortal. there will be no more possibility of sin and death ever again for them.

 

[Deeje]

Adam died because he sinned. He did not have a spiritual body. His body was made from the earth. if he had a spiritual body like the angels of God and those to be resurrected immortal, then he could not have been tempted to sin.

Yes, Adam died because he sinned.....and no, he did not have a spiritual body because he was created as a mortal human with free will. He was given an earthly paradisaic home in which he and his wife were to live and bring forth children, extending the boundaries of this beautiful garden till the whole world was a paradise. It was to be their permanent home. (Genesis 3:22-24)

Where your scenario comes unstuck IMO, is in assuming that a spiritual body was ever needed by the humans whom God created to live a material life on earth FOREVER.

Remember the two specific trees that are mentioned in the garden of Eden?
If there was no possibility of the humans disobeying God’s command concerning the TKGE, then why was there a law stating that this specific tree was God’s property and that ONLY IF they ate from that tree, death would be the penalty? If they had no choice, then God set them up to fail. Do you believe that he did?

Why was the tree even there? Did they have a choice to eat from it or not? If there was no choice then there was no free will. The death penalty was placed before it as a deterrent, but because of free will, God could not prevent them from eating it.....all he could do was put a huge penalty in front of it and hope that his provisions were enough so that the eating of that fruit would not even be on their radar. It created no hardship for them to avoid it.

Enter the devil (an appointed guardian angel who was there in the garden observing all that was happening).....what did satan do to make that tree seem to be a ”must have” to the woman?

He knew that they would die if they ate from the tree, but he needed to separate the humans from their God so that he could take their worship for himself, so he didn’t care. He told the woman that she would be “like God” if she ate the fruit, (it was he who wanted to be "like God") and he also lied about the penalty, telling her that she would not die.

This was an appeal to self interest...and it worked because he made it seem like a good idea...and he took the penalty away in her mind. Adam came on the scene and realized what she had done, leaving him with two agonizing choices.....obey his God and retain his own life...or join her and bring death on both of them, and as a result condemning all of their future children to the same fate. Again this was en exercise of his free will. Temptations cannot MAKE anyone break God’s laws....only we can do that by exercising our free will.

Now what about the other tree in the garden? This one was not off limits and it was their only means of “living forever” which was God’s purpose for humankind in the first place. After the pair ate from the forbidden fruit, God acted quickly to bar the way to “the tree of life”. Death would now overtake them, but though their spiritual death was immediate, their physical death was to take place after God allowed them to “fill the earth” with their children....all of whom were now born encumbered by sin....and needing God to rescue them from this endless cycle.

Can you tell me, from your perspective, why did God not eliminate all three rebels there and then, preventing what would inevitably happen? Why did he permit them to live and bring forth sinful children, who were all now subject to death.....and permit the devil to cause such extreme hardship among mankind? What is the purpose of this life?

I think it's the book of Enoch where those "Giants" are said to have been 450 feet tall. yikes! that's big.

The text indicates that the Nephilim were there, and afterwards, when the sons of God continued to take those women. The text also seems to be added as a reason why the sons of God may have been so attracted to those men and their daughters. They are said to be "men of renown".

Your ideas come straight from Greek mythology.

Noah was given 120 years before God acted to rectify the awful situation that existed on earth at that time.
Noah would have time to produce his children and to begin construction of an enormous structure (a box designed to float, not a boat designed navigate) to preserve all life inside of it. So the Nephilim were in existence then and afterwards, as they continued to wreak havoc in the world of mankind, who had apparently adapted to those conditions. (Matthew 24:37-39)

Since all of the Nephilim perished in the flood, they were completely eradicated from the earth because they had no right to exist.Any mention of the "Nephilim" in the Bible after that time were erroneous referral to the pre-flood Nephilim applied to tall races of people including the "sons of Anak".

I'll tackle the rest later FWIW....let's just get this cleared up first.

 

[LightofTruth]

Yes, Adam died because he sinned.....and no, he did not have a spiritual body because he was created as a mortal human with free will. He was given an earthly paradisaic home in which he and his wife were to live and bring forth children, extending the boundaries of this beautiful garden till the whole world was a paradise. It was to be their permanent home. (Genesis 3:22-24)

Where your scenario comes unstuck IMO, is in assuming that a spiritual body was ever needed by the humans whom God created to live a material life on earth FOREVER.

Remember the two specific trees that are mentioned in the garden of Eden?
If there was no possibility of the humans disobeying God’s command concerning the TKGE, then why was there a law stating that this specific tree was God’s property and that ONLY IF they ate from that tree, death would be the penalty? If they had no choice, then God set them up to fail. Do you believe that he did?

Why was the tree even there? Did they have a choice to eat from it or not? If there was no choice then there was no free will. The death penalty was placed before it as a deterrent, but because of free will, God could not prevent them from eating it.....all he could do was put a huge penalty in front of it and hope that his provisions were enough so that the eating of that fruit would not even be on their radar. It created no hardship for them to avoid it.

Enter the devil (an appointed guardian angel who was there in the garden observing all that was happening).....what did satan do to make that tree seem to be a ”must have” to the woman?

He knew that they would die if they ate from the tree, but he needed to separate the humans from their God so that he could take their worship for himself, so he didn’t care. He told the woman that she would be “like God” if she ate the fruit, (it was he who wanted to be "like God") and he also lied about the penalty, telling her that she would not die.

This was an appeal to self interest...and it worked because he made it seem like a good idea...and he took the penalty away in her mind. Adam came on the scene and realized what she had done, leaving him with two agonizing choices.....obey his God and retain his own life...or join her and bring death on both of them, and as a result condemning all of their future children to the same fate. Again this was en exercise of his free will. Temptations cannot MAKE anyone break God’s laws....only we can do that by exercising our free will.

Now what about the other tree in the garden? This one was not off limits and it was their only means of “living forever” which was God’s purpose for humankind in the first place. After the pair ate from the forbidden fruit, God acted quickly to bar the way to “the tree of life”. Death would now overtake them, but though their spiritual death was immediate, their physical death was to take place after God allowed them to “fill the earth” with their children....all of whom were now born encumbered by sin....and needing God to rescue them from this endless cycle.

Can you tell me, from your perspective, why did God not eliminate all three rebels there and then, preventing what would inevitably happen? Why did he permit them to live and bring forth sinful children, who were all now subject to death.....and permit the devil to cause such extreme hardship among mankind? What is the purpose of this life?



Noah was given 120 years before God acted to rectify the awful situation that existed on earth at that time.
Noah would have time to produce his children and to begin construction of an enormous structure (a box designed to float, not a boat designed navigate) to preserve all life inside of it. So the Nephilim were in existence then and afterwards, as they continued to wreak havoc in the world of mankind, who had apparently adapted to those conditions. (Matthew 24:37-39)

Since all of the Nephilim perished in the flood, they were completely eradicated from the earth because they had no right to exist.Any mention of the "Nephilim" in the Bible after that time were erroneous referral to the pre-flood Nephilim applied to tall races of people including the "sons of Anak".

I'll tackle the rest later FWIW....let's just get this cleared up first.

I never said Adam didn't have a choice. I'm saying what Paul said: The law was made weak by the flesh. Rom 8:3.

God gave Adam the command not to eat of the tree. Therefore, God's command was made weak by Adam's flesh. In other words, the desire of the flesh was stronger than God's command.

Man sins by being drawn away and enticed by his OWN desires. Jam 1:13-15

 

[LightofTruth]

The serpent was an adversary because it/he encouraged Eve's own desire for the fruit. He told Eve that when they ate of the tree they would be as gods(angels) to know good and evil. That was all Eve needed to hear. So she took it and ate.
Now, anyone who serves his OWN flesh is the seed of the serpent. He serves his own lusts/desires.

That desire to do evil is personified as Satan and the devil. And the works of the devil are all sorts of illnesses and disease that bring upon death to man. Because it was sin that brought death to man, Adam's sin. And those sicknesses are also personified as demons.

When Jesus and his disciples cured people they are said to have cast out demons. What they were casting out was what Adam's sin has brought....sicknesses unto death.

There is no room for a superhuman personal being to do or cause anything because man does it all by himself.

That's why God said that He saw that the imagination of the heart of man was only evil continually. And why Jeremiah says that the heart of man is sick above all things. And why Paul personifies sin and lust as a God and a prince.

Jesus said "the prince of this world cometh and has nothing on me". What was he talking about?

He was talking about those brood of vipers who sought to kill him even though they had no cause.

 

[Deeje]

The serpent was an adversary because it/he encouraged Eve's own desire for the fruit. He told Eve that when they ate of the tree they would be as gods(angels) to know good and evil. That was all Eve needed to hear. So she took it and ate.
Now, anyone who serves his OWN flesh is the seed of the serpent. He serves his own lusts/desires.

Let's back up a little.....

When God created humans "in his image and likeness" what is this suggesting to you? Do you think that God made the humans weak on purpose? Is God the epitome of weakness then? We know from scripture that humans are lower life forms than angels (Hebrews 2:9) but still as reflections of their Almighty Creator, would God create them with a propensity to sin? Would he make it easy to sin and lose their perfection and thus destroy his handiwork? If so, why would he do that?

Let me ask you this....if Adam and his wife had never entertained the devil's suggestions concerning the TKGE and had never partaken of its fruit, what would have been the outcome? Please tell me what you believe their lives would have resulted in if they had told the devil to "go away" as Jesus did?

That desire to do evil is personified as Satan and the devil. And the works of the devil are all sorts of illnesses and disease that bring upon death to man. Because it was sin that brought death to man, Adam's sin. And those sicknesses are also personified as demons.

Well, that's your story and apparently you're sticking to it.....but its not the story Jesus tells. He treated the devil as a real entity and so did the apostles.

Ephesians 2:1-3...
"Furthermore, God made you alive, though you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you at one time walked according to the system of things of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience. 3 Yes, among them we all at one time conducted ourselves in harmony with the desires of our flesh, carrying out the will of the flesh and of our thoughts, and we were naturally children of wrath just as the rest."

We were "dead in our trespasses and sins" because of the sin of Adam. The fallen flesh now dictated to the heart and mind if we did not keep a tight grip on our obedience. And Jesus only came to be our redeemer because of what Adam did.....but if Adam had not sinned, would Jesus have needed to come at all?
Can you not discern the difference in the lives of Adam and his wife before and after their disobedience?

When Jesus and his disciples cured people they are said to have cast out demons. What they were casting out was what Adam's sin has brought....sicknesses unto death.

Are you serious? The demons spoke to Jesus and begged him not to order them into the abyss....this is where they know they will be imprisoned for 1,000 years with their leader. (Revelation 20:1-3; Revelation 12:7-12)

Luke 8:27-34......
"As Jesus got out onto land, a demon-possessed man from the city met him. For a considerable time he had not worn clothing, and he was staying, not in a house, but among the tombs. 28 At the sight of Jesus, he cried out and fell down before him, and with a loud voice, he said: “What have I to do with you, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, do not torment me.” 29 (For Jesus had been ordering the unclean spirit to come out of the man. It had seized him on many occasions, and he was repeatedly bound with chains and fetters and kept under guard, but he would break the bonds and be driven by the demon into the isolated places.) 30 Jesus asked him: “What is your name?” He said: “Legion,” for many demons had entered into him. 31 And they kept pleading with him not to order them to go away into the abyss. 32 Now a large herd of swine was feeding there on the mountain, so they pleaded with him to permit them to enter into the swine, and he gave them permission. 33 With that the demons came out of the man and went into the swine, and the herd rushed over the precipice into the lake and drowned. 34 But when the herders saw what had happened, they fled and reported it in the city and in the countryside."

What do you make of this account where Jesus expelled the demons and they requested to be sent into a herd of swine who then hurled themselves over a precipice and drowned? Does this sound like something fallen human flesh could do? Aren't we still succumbing to sickness and death? Your version makes no sense.

There is no room for a superhuman personal being to do or cause anything because man does it all by himself.

That is just the point...man did not do it all by himself because that would mean that the character of God (in whose image we are made) was flawed from the outset. Humans were created perfect just like the angels....but because of free will, they could choose to disobey......which is exactly what happened. The devil rebelled first and hijacked the human race for his own agenda. There were no flaws in any of them until they decided of their own free will to disobey their God. Satan, as a covering cherub (Guardian) in Eden was the first to abuse his free will. (Ezekiel 28:15-19) He tempted the humans to join him in that rebellion and we have been experiencing the results ever since.

That's why God said that He saw that the imagination of the heart of man was only evil continually. And why Jeremiah says that the heart of man is sick above all things. And why Paul personifies sin and lust as a God and a prince.

The hearts of flawed humanity do not operate like the hearts of perfect humans and therefore have a different outcome. In sentencing the first pair for their defection, God he told Adam that because he had listened to his wife's voice (instead of God's) he would die and return to the dust. There was no 'heaven or hell' placed before either of them....in fact there was no heaven or hell placed before any human until Jesus came as Messiah.
There was only "life or death". Their sin had no basis on which to forgive them.....the three rebels had chosen to disobey and would thus, 'reap what they had sown'. There is no redemption for them. But there is for Adam's children, plunged into this situation through no fault on their part. Jesus came to offer his like for them.

So again, if the first humans had never sinned, what would have been their outcome? Would they still have died?
Would Jesus have needed to come as redeemer? Would humans have sinned with no temptations? What do you think?

Jesus said "the prince of this world cometh and has nothing on me". What was he talking about?

He was talking about those brood of vipers who sought to kill him even though they had no cause.

John 12:31....
"Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out."
John 14:30...
"I will not speak with you much more, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has no hold on me."

Who is "the ruler of this world"? He identified himself actually.....

Luke 4:1-2....
"Then Jesus, full of holy spirit, turned away from the Jordan, and he was led about by the spirit in the wilderness 2 for 40 days, being tempted by the Devil."

1 John 5:19...
"We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one."

That is "the wicked one" (singular) not "wicked ones" (plural).

Since Jesus was sinless, he was not subject to the flaws in sinful humanity. So the temptations were not from himself, but from the one who wanted worship right from the outset.

"So he [the devil] brought him [Jesus] up and showed him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time. 6 Then the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and their glory, because it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. 7 If you, therefore, do an act of worship before me, it will all be yours.” 8 In reply Jesus said to him: “It is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”

One act of worship is what the devil wanted and in exchange, what did he offer the son of God? "All the Kingdoms of the world"....he said that these had been "delivered" to him and that he could give them to whomever he wished.
How on earth you reached the conclusion above is beyond me.....

 

[LightofTruth]

Let's back up a little.....

When God created humans "in his image and likeness" what is this suggesting to you? Do you think that God made the humans weak on purpose? Is God the epitome of weakness then? We know from scripture that humans are lower life forms than angels (Hebrews 2:9) but still as reflections of their Almighty Creator, would God create them with a propensity to sin? Would he make it easy to sin and lose their perfection and thus destroy his handiwork? If so, why would he do that?

Learn what the word image means.

Having a discussion with someone who doesn't know what words mean is futile.

Try having a discussion with someone who doesn't know that death means dead and alive means living.

Forget about it!

 

[Deeje]

Learn what the word image means.

Having a discussion with someone who doesn't know what words mean is futile.

Try having a discussion with someone who doesn't know that death means dead and alive means living.

Forget about it!

So this addresses the questions asked of you...? No answer came the loud reply....

Having a discussion with someone who doesn't know scripture as much as he thinks he does, is no picnic either.

Simple questions...what would have happened in Eden if Adam had told the devil to go away like Jesus did?
Would the humans have died? Was there any natural cause of death mentioned?
Where would they have ended up eventually?

 

[LightofTruth]

So this addresses the questions asked of you...? No answer came the loud reply....

Having a discussion with someone who doesn't know scripture as much as he thinks he does, is no picnic either.

Simple questions...what would have happened in Eden if Adam had told the devil to go away like Jesus did?
Would the humans have died? Was there any natural cause of death mentioned?
Where would they have ended up eventually?

First of all, it was a serpent in the garden, not an imaginary superhuman personal being.

We've been through this already. The serpent was more intelligent than any other beast of the field. he was punished to spend the remainder of his days on his belly licking dust of the earth.

We need to stick with the text. Not hypotheticals. If you can't do that, then there's no point in discussion.

Adam died because he sinned. And because he sinned everyone else dies too.

Adam sinned in the same way everyone else does. By being drawn away and enticed by his OWN desire, or lust, or lust of the flesh, or sin in the flesh.

All that is in the world, the lust of the eyes and of the flesh, and the pride of life. All sin can be attributed to that!

 

[Deeje]

First of all, it was a serpent in the garden, not an imaginary superhuman personal being.

That is not what Jesus said in Revelation 12:7-12....which identifies the devil as "the original serpent". He has angels....helloooo. Can snakes talk? Can angels sin? Who tempted Jesus and why, if Jesus was sinless, would he be tempted by some kind of lust within himself?

We've been through this already. The serpent was more intelligent than any other beast of the field. he was punished to spend the remainder of his days on his belly licking dust of the earth.

Who was punished? A literal snake? All snakes?

We need to stick with the text. Not hypotheticals. If you can't do that, then there's no point in discussion.

Everything you present is hypothetical, so how does that work? Are only your hypotheticals valid...even if you ignore the rest of scripture...and no one else seems to share your beliefs....I think you need to think this through....

Adam died because he sinned. And because he sinned everyone else dies too.

Please tell me how that works....in your scenario.

Adam sinned in the same way everyone else does. By being drawn away and enticed by his OWN desire, or lust, or lust of the flesh, or sin in the flesh.

What desire or lust did Adam have if he was created in God's image and likeness? If I remember correctly, the lust and desire for wrongdoing came after they had sinned....so again, how does that work?

All that is in the world, the lust of the eyes and of the flesh, and the pride of life. All sin can be attributed to that!

For Adam's children that is true....we all inherited the propensity to sin from him. (Romans 5:12)...so where did Adam get it from?

And.....you didn't answer my questions.......

Here they are again, just for clarification, and please just "stick to the text".....OK?

Simple questions...what would have happened in Eden if Adam had told the devil to go away like Jesus did?
Would the humans have died? Was there any natural cause of death mentioned?
Where would they have ended up eventually?

 

[LightofTruth]

That is not what Jesus said in Revelation 12:7-12....which identifies the devil as "the original serpent". He has angels....helloooo. Can snakes talk? Can angels sin? Who tempted Jesus and why, if Jesus was sinless, would he be tempted by some kind of lust within himself?

Michael and his angels fight behind the scenes. What would actually be seen would be the defeat of the devil and his angels...which are mortal men. God's angels don't die...they are immortal.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Those who are said to have overcome the great dragon are the ones who would be SEEN by mortal men defeating the dragon and his angels. They are also mortal men.

There are three groups involved. God's immortal angels(Michael and his angels). The mortal devil and his mortal angels. And the mortal men who overcome the devil and his angels.

The snake who talked in the garden was the creature who is said to have been more intelligent that any other beast of the field.

God's angels in heaven don't sin.

Although Jesus was of the same flesh as all the rest of man and was tempted in the same way as other man...by being drawn away and enticed by his OWN desires(of the flesh)...The devil who tempted Jesus was either a man or a group of men.

 

[LightofTruth]

That is not what Jesus said in Revelation 12:7-12....which identifies the devil as "the original serpent". He has angels....helloooo. Can snakes talk? Can angels sin? Who tempted Jesus and why, if Jesus was sinless, would he be tempted by some kind of lust within himself?



Who was punished? A literal snake? All snakes?



Everything you present is hypothetical, so how does that work? Are only your hypotheticals valid...even if you ignore the rest of scripture...and no one else seems to share your beliefs....I think you need to think this through....


Please tell me how that works....in your scenario.



What desire or lust did Adam have if he was created in God's image and likeness? If I remember correctly, the lust and desire for wrongdoing came after they had sinned....so again, how does that work?


For Adam's children that is true....we all inherited the propensity to sin from him. (Romans 5:12)...so where did Adam get it from?

And.....you didn't answer my questions.......

Here they are again, just for clarification, and please just "stick to the text".....OK?

Simple questions...what would have happened in Eden if Adam had told the devil to go away like Jesus did?
Would the humans have died? Was there any natural cause of death mentioned?
Where would they have ended up eventually?

Rom 5:12 Because of this, just as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death spread to all people because all sinned.
Rom 5:13 For until the law, sin was in the world, but sin is not charged to one's account when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 But death reigned from Adam until Moses even over those who did not sin in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of the one who is to come.
Rom 5:15 But the gift is not like the trespass, for if by the trespass of the one, the many died, by much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, multiply to the many.
Rom 5:16 And the gift is not as through the one who sinned, for on the one hand, judgment from the one sin led to condemnation, but the gift, from many trespasses, led to justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through the one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18 Consequently therefore, as through one trespass came condemnation to all people, so also through one righteous deed came justification of life to all people.
Rom 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one, the many will be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Now the law came in as a side issue, in order that the trespass could increase, but where sin increased, grace was present in greater abundance,
Rom 5:21 so that just as sin reigned in death, so also grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Adam's sin caused his own death and the death of everyone else because everyone else is of the same nature(flesh) as Adam when he sinned. It's the very nature of the man made of the earth to sin.
Therefore, that very nature has to be condemned. And it was condemned by God when Jesus, who was of that same nature sacrificed himself.

Rom 8:3 For what was impossible for the law, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,

Heb 2:14 Therefore, since the children(of God) share in blood and flesh, he also in like manner shared in these same things, in order that through death he could destroy the one who has the power of death(sin) that is, the devil, (the lust or sin in the flesh).

Sin dwells in the flesh of man by its OWN desires("desires of the flesh"). And it is by those desires that man is drawn away and enticed. And by which man transgresses the law of God.

 

[LightofTruth]

Many Christians understand that man's nature is sinful. However, many can't make the connection that sin dwells in the very flesh of man. The flesh itself has its OWN desires which do NOT care about any laws.

For example:

Rom 7:7 What then shall we say? Is the law sin? May it never be! But I would not have known sin except through the law, for I would not have known covetousness if the law had not said, "Do not covet."
Rom 7:8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin is dead.
Rom 7:9 And I was alive once, apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life
Rom 7:10 and I died, and this commandment which was to lead to life was found with respect to me to lead to death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, seizing the opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
Rom 7:12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
Rom 7:13 Therefore, did that which is good become death to me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be recognized as sin, producing death through what is good for me, in order that sin might become sinful to an extraordinary degree through the commandment.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold into slavery to sin.
Rom 7:15 For what I am doing I do not understand, because what I want to do, this I do not practice, but what I hate, this I do.
Rom 7:16 But if what I do not want to do, this I do, I agree with the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 But now I am no longer the one doing it, but sin that lives in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that good does not live in me, that is, in my flesh. For the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I want to do, I do not do, but the evil that I do not want to do, this I do.
Rom 7:20 But if what I do not want to do, this I am doing, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin that lives in me.
Rom 7:21 Consequently, I find the principle with me, the one who wants to do good, that evil is present with me.

So, there you have it.

 

[Deeje]

Michael and his angels fight behind the scenes. What would actually be seen would be the defeat of the devil and his angels...which are mortal men. God's angels don't die...they are immortal.

Where does it say that angels are immortal? Angels are spirit beings who can only be put to death by their Creator. They have a reservation in "Gehenna" (the lake of fire) along with all who have displayed the traits of the devil. That does not take place until the rule of the Kingdom has accomplished its mission...to bring redeemed mankind back to God and to be able to enjoy what God purposed for them in the beginning.(Isaiah 55:11) So what did God purpose for mankind at the beginning?

Those who are said to have overcome the great dragon are the ones who would be SEEN by mortal men defeating the dragon and his angels. They are also mortal men.

Where does it say this?

There are three groups involved. God's immortal angels(Michael and his angels). The mortal devil and his mortal angels. And the mortal men who overcome the devil and his angels.

Talk about hypotheticals!......where on earth does this come from? It does not resemble anything I have read in scripture. Michael and his angels battle the devil and his angels.....why is that a difficult concept? Good angels battle bad angels because all of God's intelligent creation have free will. You do understand the concept of everlasting life I hope.....it is not at all the same as immortality. If you don't know the difference, then a lot of things in the Bible will be skewed.

The snake who talked in the garden was the creature who is said to have been more intelligent that any other beast of the field.

Who or what is this talking snake? The Bible identifies him as satan the devil....an entity whom Jesus identified as lying to the woman in the garden of Eden. Who lied to the woman, and what was the lie?

God's angels in heaven don't sin.

As free willed creatures, they can disobey their Creator and lose their lives just like we can.....they just don't die in the same way as humans can.

Although Jesus was of the same flesh as all the rest of man and was tempted in the same way as other man...by being drawn away and enticed by his OWN desires(of the flesh)...The devil who tempted Jesus was either a man or a group of men.

If Jesus was of the same flesh as all the rest of man, then what was the purpose of his miraculous birth and his sacrificial death?
Jesus came into the world without the sin of Adam in his DNA. He laid down that perfect sinless life to redeem Adam's children, born encumbered by sin through no fault on their part. Do you understand what the "ransom" is?

Jesus said...."Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many." (Matthew 20:28)

"So, then, as through one trespass the result to men of all sorts was condemnation, so too through one act of justification the result to men of all sorts is their being declared righteous for life. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one person many will be made righteous." (Romans 5:18-19)

Do you understand the mechanics? Jesus was sinless...without an inborn propensity to do the wrong thing. He proved by his obedience that Adam and his wife could have obeyed their God as well.

 

[LightofTruth]

Where does it say that angels are immortal?

Already explained.

Certain Jews were asking Jesus about marriage and the resurrection. They were wondering if the resurrected ones would still be married to those who had died previously.

Jesus explained that the resurrected ones are like the angels of God, they neither marry nor DO THEY DIE!

They don't marry because it's not their nature to marry. And they don't die because they don't sin! The wages of sin is death.
I'm sorry if you can't grasp this simple truth.

If someone can't grasp such a simple truth as explained, what purpose is there in trying to have an intelligent conversation? NONE!

 

[LightofTruth]

Question:
Why does man (all human beings) die?

Answer:
All human beings(man) die because of Adam's sin. This is explained in Romans 5:12-21.

Question:
What is the cause of sin by which all man dies?

Answer:
The cause of sin is the desires of the flesh. See James 1:13-15 and Romans 7:7-21

Question:
Does someone have to sin in order to die?

Answer:
No. All man dies, not because of his own sin, but because of the sin of Adam.

In other words, it doesn't matter if a person has not transgressed the law of God as Adam did. He will die anyway because he sinned in Adam and is under that same death sentence as Adam.

Question:
Doesn't that mean that I am guilty of Adam's sin and am being put to death unjustly?
No. You are of the same flesh as Adam when he sinned. And it is that very flesh which is being condemned. Get it?
You are not guilty of Adam's actual sin, you are guilty by association of the flesh.

Question:
Are you saying that God created Adam with a sinful nature?

YES!

Question:
God created a sinner?

Answer:
Adam was not a sinner until the law was introduced. Adam was perfect until the law came. The law shows man his OWN weakness. His weakness is in his inability to abide by the just commands of the law. And Paul teaches us that that inability lies in the flesh.

 

[Deeje]

Already explained.

Its your explanation which has no real basis in scripture....only in the way you are interpreting it. So again I have to ask...who else sees things in the way that you do? Can you be right if no one else supports all that you believe? Be honest.

Certain Jews were asking Jesus about marriage and the resurrection. They were wondering if the resurrected ones would still be married to those who had died previously.

Jesus explained that the resurrected ones are like the angels of God, they neither marry nor DO THEY DIE!

Let me give you our understanding of that....upheld by over 8.5 million JW's.

Those who come back in the resurrection have no desire to marry because they don't need to reproduce. Think of all the people who have lost mates and have married again, and the awkwardness of trying to choose between two equally loved marriage mates in the new world. But if those who come back are still loved, but in a more platonic way, that awkwardness is gone. Death ends a marriage.

God's mandate to the humans in Eden was to "fill the earth" with their offspring.....so what was going to happen once earth was "filled" to its natural capacity? If they don't die but keep reproducing, what will naturally happen?

If those who lose their lives in the war of Armageddon are replaced with those who come back in the resurrection, then at what capacity do you imagine the earth will be at that time?

WE have reason to believe that the "great crowd" who survive the end times without experiencing death, will reproduce for a time. But there will come a point when the earth will be "filled"...what then?

They don't marry because it's not their nature to marry. And they don't die because they don't sin! The wages of sin is death.
I'm sorry if you can't grasp this simple truth.

Well one of us is not grasping a simple truth...

Were humans created to die? NO! But they could choose their actions, disobey God and suffer the death penalty. Isn't that what Adam did?

Were angels created to die? The simple truth is NO! again.....because everlasting life was promised to both. There was no "natural" cause of death for either of them.

But neither of them are "immortal" because both can still die if God judges them unworthy of life. As free willed beings, the same as satan and Adam, they can choose to disobey knowing full well the consequences.

Why didn't God put the three rebels to death immediately and start again? Can you answer that?
Why did he allow sin to keep taking lives for thousands of years?

If someone can't grasp such a simple truth as explained, what purpose is there in trying to have an intelligent conversation? NONE!

You are coming from a very weak position my friend.....you cannot be a "one man band"...there must be a brotherhood who believes the same as you do. Have you found them? If not then keep looking, for if you have the truth, then God will lead you to them...will he not?

How long have you been looking for God's people? Is there a possible reason why you are alone in the world with only some people believing some parts of what you do? Lets be realistic here.

According to 1 Corinthians 1:10.....the true Christian brotherhood would be identifiable (globally) by two things....
"you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought."
.....and John 13:24-25...
"I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves.”

In order to have love among themselves, you actually have to know who your fellow disciples are, and associate with them. (Hebrews 10:24-25) Do you? Can you?

 

[sojourner]

In Christianity the devil plays a key role in why humanity ran off the rails thousands of years ago, introducing pain and suffering and death into the world.

For those who believe in this enemy of God.....who is he, and why is he in an adversarial role?
Why does God tolerate him and allow him to inflict suffering on innocent people in the world, like he did with Job?

Many people have difficulty understanding why God didn't just make the world operate on auto-pilot so that no evil could ever be seen in his creation. Is there a reason for that?

He seems to have an extensive toolbox, filled with all sorts of different ways to deceive mankind, to create as much hateful division as possible, and to lead them away from God. Sometimes he can even masquerade as "God" or "an angel of light".

Some of his activities are obvious, and some are subtle and not so easy to spot. He likes to create confusion by giving us too many choices....leaving a lot of people wondering which way to go.

What tools do you see in his toolbox that might inflict damage on those who are trying to bring their lives into harmony with God's will?
What are the obvious ones, and what do you think the more subtle ones are?

I can think of quite a few....

The biggest is a monkey wrench...

 

[Colt]

In Christianity the devil plays a key role in why humanity ran off the rails thousands of years ago, introducing pain and suffering and death into the world.

For those who believe in this enemy of God.....who is he, and why is he in an adversarial role?
Why does God tolerate him and allow him to inflict suffering on innocent people in the world, like he did with Job?

Many people have difficulty understanding why God didn't just make the world operate on auto-pilot so that no evil could ever be seen in his creation. Is there a reason for that?

He seems to have an extensive toolbox, filled with all sorts of different ways to deceive mankind, to create as much hateful division as possible, and to lead them away from God. Sometimes he can even masquerade as "God" or "an angel of light".

Some of his activities are obvious, and some are subtle and not so easy to spot. He likes to create confusion by giving us too many choices....leaving a lot of people wondering which way to go.

What tools do you see in his toolbox that might inflict damage on those who are trying to bring their lives into harmony with God's will?
What are the obvious ones, and what do you think the more subtle ones are?

I can think of quite a few....

* Lucifer was a high celestial administrator. He was brilliant and had been loyal. From such a magnificent beginning, through evil and error, he embraced sin and lead the world into confusion and rebellion.

* God allowed rebellion because our Father is forgiving, he hoped Lucifer would repent. And more may have been lost based on Lucifer's delusional accusations.

* Jesus defeated Lucifer, he's gone. Today humans blame their own evil on the devil.

* death was specifically for Adam and Eve who arrived on a previously populated earth See Cain's fear about going out in the world, God agrees, puts a mark on Cain to protect him.

* I have no faith in a devil God who rules the earth.

 

[Cooky]

Try this book.

 

[Cooky]

Just curious, but has anyone ever considered that scriptures about Satan, or what he does or did, can mean anything to anyone, depending on how they choose to interpret scripture?

...Kind of like competing conspiracy theories.