The Divinity of Christ

[Kenny]

----------
(quote)
Hi Ken
Many things were forced during the dark ages, but could not be forever held to, as people were willing to give their lives in the uncovering of Bible truths, as history shows.
upon the great apostasy that arose in full sway after the death of Christ and his apostles, the apostate 'church' set about ruling at the point of death to those who dared disagree. (quite "Christ like", wouldn't you say? -tongue in cheek, of course--)
Perhaps you have studied Michael Servetus-- ?? if not, good one to research, imho. there is an article that I would like to have your thoughts on after you have a chance to read it over, if you will. It is very revealing and informative.

www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/wp20140601/reformation-truth-seekers/#?insight[search_id]=78ce816e-e968-4c08-8fb9-a9c55b0e3f13&insight[search_result_index]=3

take care

Eph 1:17

It is so true that during the dark ages, not only were things forced but the average person could not double check the veracity of what was said. Indulgences is another good example.

Read your article. I agree wholeheartedly with the statement "Capito thus concluded that the church teachings on transubstantiation and the veneration of saints were unscriptural."

As people were "rediscovering" the meanings of scripture, it isn't unusual to have different positions. At one point the early church had a difference in viewpoints... first on whether Gentiles could be included in such a great grace of salvation and then again if they should be circumcised. I have no doubt that Capito had differences from Luther as with Whitfield etc.

However, we are in a completely different age now. With the advent of digital access, so much can be verified not to mention the reality that the Bible can now be read by all thanks to the printing press.

Your piece makes mention of the statement I have just made, "Even though not all of the conclusions reached by these truth seekers were in full harmony with the Bible, these men humbly searched the Scriptures and treasured the truth that they learned."

They were still in the discovery mode.

Thus, I would wholeheartedly disagree with the statement that is made about the Holy Spirit "The spirit of God is taken in an operative sense, in that He prepares and carries out all things through his spiritual power and activity.”. As I would with the other statement of "Jesus was one of many gods and sons of the almighty God."

Of course, that is a ping pong ball that keeps being batted back and forth. I have heard and read about both sides and find that ultimately "Godhead - Father, Son and HS" to be the best interpretation holding consistent when taken into account the full scope of scriptures vs taking certain parts.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

The Bible tells us that Jesus was 'the firstborn of all creation by God'. That being before the earth was created, and before mankind was created. It was to Jesus whom Jehovah spoke when He said "let us make man".

So it is not hard to understand that He is the one named his 'firstborn of all creation by God' Son, when born as a human, JESUS. Colossians 1: 13-15 He was identified in his prehuman existence as the mighty archangel Michael. Rev.12:7-9

Ah yes, the great witness confusion talking!

Witnesses never pay attention to what they say, and usually end up contradicting themselves!

How could it have been to "Jesus" whom Jehovah spoke, when He was identified as "Michael" in His prehuman existence?

 

[Muffled]

Let us face it the Niceaen doctrine is:
View attachment 18135

The words of the Bible is:
View attachment 18136

Your choice on which to follow.

I believe I go by the Bible which contains the Trinity and you go by some imagined idea of what man has done in Turkey.

 

[Muffled]

(quote)
none of the publications have ever claimed to be 'inspired of God', but then surely you know that. ----as the Bible is.
No one in Jehovah's worldwide organization has ever claimed to be infallable. Neither did the imperfect sinful Apostles of Christ. And yet, God used them under direction of His holy spirit, to write down what He wanted mankind to know, did He not?
Likewise he uses sinful humans today to carry the message to the ends of the earth to the best of their imperfect ability. Never claiming to be infallible, as there are no perfect humans alive on earth today. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Does that stop them from doing their best in obeying Bible commands? Matthew 24:12-14.
If God didn't use imperfect humans, then HE would not have any humans at all to use in His service, would He? Praying to God and asking for His Spirit to guide our steps, and then doing our best to be obedient to what is stated in the Holy Writings from God is often times blessed by God in our service to our fellow humanbeings as per Bible instruction. None of us are anything more than lowly workers in the harvest of the Master.
But that still doesn't change the fact that the word 'trinity' is not found in the Inspired Writings, the Bible, does it?
may you have peace

I don't believe one could ever say that I have met a JW inspired by God. Not even my brother-in-law who gives God the credit for cessation of smoking when the truth is he was under compulsion by the JWs who told Him he could not attend JW assembly until he stopped smoking.

 

[Muffled]

Despite our theological differences and the small matter that we are followers of entirely different religions, I agree that the church became corrupted during this period of time when the church leaders went from being spiritual leaders to worldly letters and started introducing their own ideas which corrupted the original teachings.

We have had a few exchanges on RF now. Of the thousands of different denominations of Christianity, which one is the least corrupted and why?

I believe Southern Baptist because it has no doctrine that can be identified as in error. It does hold some opinions that are in error and probably teaches them so maybe it is a moot point that it isn't doctrine, lol. Fortunately it is not as fast and loose with scripture as other Baptist non-doctrine conventions and teh United Church of Christ which i consider apostate.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I believe Southern Baptist because it has no doctrine that can be identified as in error. It does hold some opinions that are in error and probably teaches them so maybe it is a moot point that it isn't doctrine, lol. Fortunately it is not as fast and loose with scripture as other Baptist non-doctrine conventions and teh United Church of Christ which i consider apostate.

Do you think this website represents your beliefs?

Southern Baptist Convention > Basic Beliefs

 

[MJFlores]

I believe I go by the Bible which contains the Trinity and you go by some imagined idea of what man has done in Turkey.

Oh my golly.
Someone has been lacking sleep.
Well the truth does that.
The thing is at the end of all things, we all see the results of what we believe or hate to believe.

In simple terms - Jesus is the Son - that is the Biblical Jesus

Another Jesus is he fathered himself and that is really weird.

 

[Muffled]

Do you think this website represents your beliefs?

Southern Baptist Convention > Basic Beliefs

I believe:

Typically church membership is a matter of receiving Jesus as your Savior and Lord and experiencing believer's baptism by immersion.

The Holy Bible was written by men divinely inspired and is God's revelation of Himself to man.

There is one and only one living and true God. …The eternal triune God reveals Himself to us as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence, or being.

Salvation
Salvation involves the redemption of the whole man, and is offered freely to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, who by His own blood obtained eternal redemption for the believer. In its broadest sense salvation includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification.

Baptism & the Lord's Supper
Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water. …It is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer's faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, the believer's death to sin, the burial of the old life, and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus.

The Lord's Supper is a symbolic act of obedience whereby members … memorialize the death of the Redeemer and anticipate His second coming.

Evangelism & Missions
It is the duty and privilege of every follower of Christ and every church of the Lord Jesus Christ to endeavor to make disciples of all nations... to seek constantly to win the lost to Christ by verbal witness undergirded by a Christian lifestyle, and by other methods in harmony with the gospel of Christ.

Last Things
God, in His own time and in His own way, will bring the world to its appropriate end. …Jesus Christ will return personally and visibly…the dead will be raised; and Christ will judge all men in righteousness. The unrighteous will be consigned to Hell. …The righteous… will receive their reward and will dwell forever in Heaven with the Lord.

I believe in this but my pastor and others in the denomination believe people go to Hell or Heaven when they die. I believe neither is determined and I also believe in a Christian view of re-incarnation which others do not believe in. I also believe our final destination will be in physical bodies that don't die of old age on earth.


I don't believe:

God the Father
God as Father reigns with providential care over His universe. It isn't that I don't believe this is true but simply that it does not define the Father. I believe the Son and HS also do this. Perhaps it is the idea of universe being a great spatial distance whereas the Son and HS tend to be on earth.


God the Son
Christ is the eternal Son of God. In His incarnation as Jesus Christ, He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. …He honored the divine law by His personal obedience, and in His substitutionary death on the cross, He made provision for the redemption of men from sin.

I believe the Spirit of God in Jesus is eternal but the body is not. Conceived by the Holy Spirit here does not mean the same thing as the Paraclete, the Third Person in the Trinity. In essence all three members of the Trinity are the Holy Spirit. Since the Son and Paraclete don't exist at the time of conception the only thing one can say is that the Father produced the conception by His Holy Spirit.

God the Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, fully divine. …He exalts Christ. He convicts men of sin, of righteousness and of judgment. …He enlightens and empowers the believer and the church in worship, evangelism, and service.

I believe here they have completely misunderstood the concept of the Paraclete and substituted the Spirit of God for it.

 

[Muffled]

Oh my golly.
Someone has been lacking sleep.
Well the truth does that.
The thing is at the end of all things, we all see the results of what we believe or hate to believe.

View attachment 18389

In simple terms - Jesus is the Son - that is the Biblical Jesus

Another Jesus is he fathered himself and that is really weird.

I believe you would have to throw out a great deal of the Bible if you are not able to accept really weird. It is really weird to walk on water, cause a storm to cease, raise the dead and cast out demons. I find it quite reasonable.

In simple terms being the Son means that He is God in the flesh and that is the Biblical Jesus.

I believe a Jesus who is a mere man can't save me from God's wrath and certainly can't save me from sin. I believe that is the weak and useless Jesus you have created by misinterpreting the Bible to suit yourself.

 

[Repox]

My view is Jesus was God, and God is a duality. God came into the world to give testimony to His chosen people. Things went crazy, they didn't believe Him, they misinterpreted Him. He explained, and they again misinterpreted, it got even worse when Jesus rejected their interpretations of what He said. Then, after Jesus was murdered, Jesus movement people made up son of God stories. Thus, we have the New Testament with misinterpretations of what Jesus said, and false stories of what really happened. I know, if we don't really know what happened, how can we have faith? Good question. I don't really know. For several years, I have conducted research on Jesus gospels, there is indirect evidence for my assertion. As an example, early gospels, those which survived from church leaders campaign to destroy all other gospels, do not have the same Jesus stories. It appears as if church leader bias determined the content of gospels selected. If, as an example, Jesus was not the son of God, but actually God, then, we have false narratives. I don't think we will ever know the real truth.

 

[Daisies4me]

Eph 1:17

It is so true that during the dark ages, not only were things forced but the average person could not double check the veracity of what was said. Indulgences is another good example.

Read your article. I agree wholeheartedly with the statement "Capito thus concluded that the church teachings on transubstantiation and the veneration of saints were unscriptural."
(quote)
Hi again
thanks for your reply and for sharing your opinions.
(quote)

As people were "rediscovering" the meanings of scripture, it isn't unusual to have different positions. At one point the early church had a difference in viewpoints... first on whether Gentiles could be included in such a great grace of salvation and then again if they should be circumcised. I have no doubt that Capito had differences from Luther as with Whitfield etc.

However, we are in a completely different age now. With the advent of digital access, so much can be verified not to mention the reality that the Bible can now be read by all thanks to the printing press.

Your piece makes mention of the statement I have just made, "Even though not all of the conclusions reached by these truth seekers were in full harmony with the Bible, these men humbly searched the Scriptures and treasured the truth that they learned."

They were still in the discovery mode.

Thus, I would wholeheartedly disagree with the statement that is made about the Holy Spirit "The spirit of God is taken in an operative sense, in that He prepares and carries out all things through his spiritual power and activity.”. As I would with the other statement of "Jesus was one of many gods and sons of the almighty God."

Of course, that is a ping pong ball that keeps being batted back and forth. I have heard and read about both sides and find that ultimately "Godhead - Father, Son and HS" to be the best interpretation holding consistent when taken into account the full scope of scriptures vs taking certain parts.

 

[Daisies4me]

I don't believe one could ever say that I have met a JW inspired by God. Not even my brother-in-law who gives God the credit for cessation of smoking when the truth is he was under compulsion by the JWs who told Him he could not attend JW assembly until he stopped smoking.

(quote)
Hi muffled
fyi--no one is told that they 'could not attend JW assembly', for any reason. You will not be allowed to smoke in the building, however. as it is with many places now. your information is incorrect on that. Even disfellowshipped ones are welcomed to attend any meetings that they want to attend. In fact , they are encouraged to do so.
Smoking is a defilement of the fleshly body, would you agree?
If you desire to be found clean of defilement before God, or present your body as a 'temple', as the scripture says, can you do that while polluting your body (and the atmosphere of people you come around) with unclean life threatening substances?
It is a personal choice. The only worship God accepts is from the heart. as Luke stated, "where your heart is, there your treasure with be", or something to that effect. Either a person chooses to obey God, or they choose not to. As a former smoker, a person is addicted to smoking. It takes great effort to give up the habit. No one just quits at a suggestion, without great effort, imo.
JW's don't make those decisions for people. Each one must answer for his own self, and when desiring to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses, they must make their own decision, and row their own boat, so to speak... unclean smoking addiction is unclean, and God teaches us what He requires of His people. Those who choose to deliberately continue to defile themselves are not good association for others. The meetings welcome all visitors. However--If you want to participate continually in partaking of such things, then perhaps you may chose to go where people accept such things. No JW will try to stop you from leaving Jehovah's organization, if that is your choice to go--no one is held hostage, contrary to some false contentions. We just don't want it polluting our space. If you clean it up, and repent, and leave it behind, and do so to please the God of the Bible, you will be welcomed back at that time. Same as it was in under the Law. Free will to choose, does not mean that God will put up with unclean practices within His organization.

 

[Daisies4me]

Ah yes, the great witness confusion talking!

Witnesses never pay attention to what they say, and usually end up contradicting themselves!

How could it have been to "Jesus" whom Jehovah spoke, when He was identified as "Michael" in His prehuman existence?

(quote)
Hi
The firstborn of all creation by God, was not known by the name 'Jesus' until his human birth.
He is called 'Michael' the Archangel, in his prehuman existence.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

(quote)
Hi
The firstborn of all creation by God, was not known by the name 'Jesus' until his human birth.
He is called 'Michael' the Archangel, in his prehuman existence.

If that is true, then the Bible is inaccurate about Jesus being the first born of all creation, it was Michael.

 

[Daisies4me]

If that is true, then the Bible is inaccurate about Jesus being the first born of all creation, it was Michael.

(quote)
Many Biblical characters have multiple names. Michael the Archangel and Jesus the human Son of God are one and the same. The firstborn of all creation by God. Colossians 1:15.

 

[Daisies4me]

My view is Jesus was God, and God is a duality. God came into the world to give testimony to His chosen people. Things went crazy, they didn't believe Him, they misinterpreted Him. He explained, and they again misinterpreted, it got even worse when Jesus rejected their interpretations of what He said. Then, after Jesus was murdered, Jesus movement people made up son of God stories. Thus, we have the New Testament with misinterpretations of what Jesus said, and false stories of what really happened. I know, if we don't really know what happened, how can we have faith? Good question. I don't really know. For several years, I have conducted research on Jesus gospels, there is indirect evidence for my assertion. As an example, early gospels, those which survived from church leaders campaign to destroy all other gospels, do not have the same Jesus stories. It appears as if church leader bias determined the content of gospels selected. If, as an example, Jesus was not the son of God, but actually God, then, we have false narratives. I don't think we will ever know the real truth.

My view is Jesus was God, and God is a duality. God came into the world to give testimony to His chosen people. Things went crazy, they didn't believe Him, they misinterpreted Him. He explained, and they again misinterpreted, it got even worse when Jesus rejected their interpretations of what He said. Then, after Jesus was murdered, Jesus movement people made up son of God stories. Thus, we have the New Testament with misinterpretations of what Jesus said, and false stories of what really happened. I know, if we don't really know what happened, how can we have faith? Good question. I don't really know. For several years, I have conducted research on Jesus gospels, there is indirect evidence for my assertion. As an example, early gospels, those which survived from church leaders campaign to destroy all other gospels, do not have the same Jesus stories. It appears as if church leader bias determined the content of gospels selected. If, as an example, Jesus was not the son of God, but actually God, then, we have false narratives. I don't think we will ever know the real truth.

(quote)
Hi repox
Couple of questions: Can God die?

The Bible says no, God is Eternal, and cannot die.

Did Jesus die? Yes, and God resurrected him from the death condition. Acts 2:32

Who did Jesus claim to be? John 10:36 He said that he was 'the Son of God'. see also Luke 1:32

Just something to think about..

peace

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Did Jesus die? Yes, and God resurrected him from the death condition. Acts 2:32

There you go, Jesus is God!

Acts 2:32 (ESV Strong's) 32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.

John 2:19 (ESV Strong's) 19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

 

[djhwoodwerks]

(quote)
Many Biblical characters have multiple names. Michael the Archangel and Jesus the human Son of God are one and the same. The firstborn of all creation by God. Colossians 1:15.

No, they didn't have "multiple" names, God "changed" their names, and why did God "change" their names? Why do you think God changed Abrams name to Abraham?

 

[Daisies4me]

There you go, Jesus is God!

Acts 2:32 (ESV Strong's) 32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.

John 2:19 (ESV Strong's) 19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

(quote)
Hi DJ
Let's think about this. if a person is dead, they are incapable of any activity, they know nothing at all, according to Ecclesiastes 9: 5, & 10, and Psalms 146:3-4.
So, what was Jesus' condition when God resurrected him from the dead?

This Jesus, whom they had killed, God resurrected, a fact that they were all witnesses to, according to the scripture.

God cannot die. Jesus died. God is Eternal. Jesus died and God resurrected him.
now, if you don't think that Jesus was actually dead, how could his 'death' have atoned for the sin of Adam perpetrated upon all of Adam's offspring? The ransom price was a perfect human life for a perfect human life, correct?

To whom did Jesus pray? To his God and Father in the heavens, correct? Not to himself.

Jesus has a God. The God who 'saved' him out of death.
Hebrews 3:1-7 tells us that Jesus is the Apostle and High Priest to our God, as Moses was. Moses mediated the Law covenant, and Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant.

We approach the Almighty God in prayer, thru the Mediator, Jesus, which is why prayers are said to God "in the name of Jesus", as Jesus is the 'way' sinful humans can be heard by God. He mediates for us .
peace to you

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Let's think about this. if a person is dead, they are incapable of any activity, they know nothing at all, according to Ecclesiastes 9: 5, & 10, and Psalms 146:3-4.
So, what was Jesus' condition when God resurrected him from the dead?

The body of Jesus died and was buried, His Spirit went and proclaimed the Gospel to the "spirits in prison". Which was the whole world that was destroyed in Noah's day.

1 Peter 3:18-20 (ESV Strong's) 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah.

So yes, when we die, our flesh is incapable of activity, it knows nothing at all, but our spirit lives on!