The earth is 13,000 years old and it is soon to be renewed when Christ comes

[FFH]

How about you directly refute that which was already presented to you

Maybe you missed/skipped over the last few posts, in which I have clearly explained my position, which takes into consideration the fact that these halos could possibly be Radium-226 halos.

I have chosen to take the middle ground, in acknowledging that these "Polonium" halos could possibly be Radium-226 (1,600 year half-life) halos, but definitely not Uranium-238 (4.5 billion year half-life) halos, as Talk Origin and many other similar websites and evolutionary scientists suggest.

Uranium-238 halos must have 8 concentric halos (six visible)...

 

[FFH]

There simply are not enough halos to constitute them being Uranium halos

RADIOISOTOPE ~~~~~ HALF LIFE
Polonium-214 ~~~~~~~ 164 microseconds

Polonium-218 ~~~~~~~ 3.05 minutes

Radon-222 ~~~~~~~~~~~ 3.8 days
Polonium-210 ~~~~~~~~ 138 days

Radium-226 ~~~~~~~~~~ 1,600 years
Thorium-230 ~~~~~~~~~ 80,000 years
Uranium-234 ~~~~~~~~~ 250,000 years

Uranium-238 ~~~~~~~~~ 4,500,000,000 years

My theory:

Radium-226 = 1,600 years plus Niagra Falls erosion 12,500 years (deduct some years due to the higher rate of erosion due to the Great Flood runoff) equals 14,500 years (at the most).

Or

Radon-222/Polonium-210 = 3.8 days/138 days plus Niagra Falls erosion = 12,500 years equals 12,500 years...

At the most 14,500 years (minus some years due to the flood runoff) and at the very least 12,500 years (minus some years due to the flood runoff).

Midway between these two dates would be the figure 13,500 years (minus some years due to flood runoff)

I will refute Talk Origin and other similar website and evolutionary scientist claims as I gain more understanding on each subject.

I have only covered one theory and refutted Gentry's and Talk Origin theories that the radio halos are Polonium on one end of the extreme and Uranium on the other end of the extreme.

I'm going with the theory that these halos are either Radon-222/Polonium-210 or Radium-226 halos...

Will refute other points of evolutionary theories, which claim the earth is millions or billions of years old as I gain a better understanding and as I see the need to do so..

 

[FFH]

I

We still can't ignore these halos though, which appear to have only 2 or 3 halos..

 

[painted wolf]

some quick math... and information on the formation of elements. Polonium (218,214,210) comes from Radon (222) that comes from Uranium(238). (ps Polonium turns into Lead) Uranium 238 has a half life of 4.5 million years, it creates Radon 222 that has a half life of 3.28 days Now the intresting thing is the half life of Polonium Po 210 = 138.376 days... Po 209 = 103 years Po 208 = 2.9 years Now for the shortest lived polonium to be around it must be formed from Radon that formed at least 3 days ago. so far so good... but where did that Radon come from? From Uranium... which decays only every 4.5 billion years. So the math is a bit off. To get Radon you need Uranium that is well older than 13,000 years. even to get Polonium the fast way via Tholonium takes at least 80,000 years to get the Radon that needs the 3 odd days to get the Polonium. wa:do

 

[FFH]

some quick math... and information on the formation of elements. Polonium (218,214,210) comes from Radon (222) that comes from Uranium(238). (ps Polonium turns into Lead) Uranium 238 has a half life of 4.5 million years, it creates Radon 222 that has a half life of 3.28 days Now the intresting thing is the half life of Polonium Po 210 = 138.376 days... Po 209 = 103 years Po 208 = 2.9 years Now for the shortest lived polonium to be around it must be formed from Radon that formed at least 3 days ago. so far so good... but where did that Radon come from? From Uranium... which decays only every 4.5 billion years. So the math is a bit off. To get Radon you need Uranium that is well older than 13,000 years. even to get Polonium the fast way via Tholonium takes at least 80,000 years to get the Radon that needs the 3 odd days to get the Polonium. wa:do

Seriousy, I studied this enough now to totally understand what you just said.... but that still doesn't explain why some radio halos found in mica and granite contain 2 or 3 halos...such as the ones I have posted in post number 223. How do you explain this Painted Wolf ???

Uranium=238 produces 8 concentric decay halos, 6 being visible..

.

To get Radon you need Uranium

Could it not come from Radium, which has a half life of 1,600 years ??? You failed to mention this. If it can come from "Tholonium" ( I'm sure you meant to say Thorium-230, which has a half-life of 80.000 years), surely it can come from Radium-226...

If Radon is part of the decay chain of Radium, then this still fits within my theory of a 13,000 year old earth....

Will research this and post my findings, unless you already know Radon can decay from Radium, Painted Wolf, then feel free to post this, but I won't count on it so I'll research it myself and post my findings...

 

[FFH]

And there it is Painted Wolf, thanks to Wiki

Radium 226
αlpha decay
half-life ~~ 1,602 years
Energy released ~~ Mev 5.789
Product of decay ~~ Radon 222

Again, this is going against Gentry's beliefs of a literal 6 day creation, with one day of rest and 6,000 years of mortal human existence, since the time of Adam and Eve's fall.

My thoery allows for Radium-226 halos, because I believe in a 6,000 year creation, with a 1,000 year rest period, with a 6,000 year mortal human existence added to that, from the fall of Adam and Eve...

Possibly Radium-226 halos

My theory still stands...

Add 1,600 years (Radium half-life) to 2.500 years (life of Niagra Falls, minus some years for the increased water flow, due to the Great Flood runoff) which equals 14,100 years, at the very most (minus some years for the flood runoff, which would have sped up the Niagra Falls erosion process for "some" time, which would be hard to guestimate, unless we knew the flow rate. We know the runoff time, but not the rate of flow, but we could guestimate, by saying double the rate for x number of years. I need to look at the Biblical dates of the time frame of the flood waters receding)

Plonium halos still fit within the time frame also, so I'm not ruling them out either..

The relatively Insantaneous formation of rock plus the erosion of Niagra Falls for 12,500 years, still fits within my theory...

 

[FFH]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, Times]I'm still not ruling these out though because Uranium-238 decay chain would have 8 halos, 6 visible...

Please explain how these could be explained away as Uranium-238 halos...[/FONT]
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[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, Times]The following are some illustrations of Polonium halos and photographs of actual cross-sections of halos of those isotopes[/FONT]

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[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, Times]210 Po Halo Cross Section[/FONT]
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[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, Times]Idealized three-dimensional illustration of a 210 Po halo obtained by slicing the halo through the center. Each halo ring is identified by the appropriate isotope and its alpha energy in MeV (Million electron Volts)[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, Times]

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[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, Times]214 Po Halo Cross Section[/FONT]
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[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, Times]Idealized three-dimensional illustration of a 214 Po halo obtained by slicing the halo through the center. Each halo ring is identified by the appropriate isotope and its alpha energy in MeV (Million electron Volts)
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, Times] [/FONT]

 

[FFH]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, Times]

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[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, Times]

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[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, Times]218 Po Halo Cross Section
[/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, Times]Idealized three-dimensional illustration of a 218 Po halo obtained by slicing the halo through the center. Each halo ring is identified by the appropriate isotope and its alpha energy in MeV (Million electron Volts)[/FONT]

 

[painted wolf]

*sigh* Radium comes from the decay of Uranium, thus you still need 4.5 billion years for Uranium to make it.
Thorium comes from the decay of Uranium 238... same problem.

Also of intrest, you can tell what kind of parent element the Polonium comes from from its atomic number. "different parents have different kids" kind of thing.

for example:
Po 218,214,210 come from U 238
Po 215,217 come from U 235
Po 216,212 come from Thorium 232

Radon 222 comes from U 238
Ra 219 from U 235
Ra 220 from Th 232

Now I understand you want to take the fast track and prove your theory, but you can't do that and be intellectually honest.
The reason you can't is that these other elements exist and require a massive ammount of time to be created by decay of parent elements. You simply can't ignore the ammount of time it takes Uranium to decay.

wa:do

 

[FFH]

I understand the decay chain, Painted Wolf, and I knew you would say that Radium-226 cannot be the original emitting source, but must be part of the isotope decay chain of Uranium-238. The common belief is that Radium, Radon, Polonium, etc. cannot exist by themselves, and are part of the decay chain of Uranium-238. I already am aware of this..

Radium-226, for example, is an isotope (part of the Uranium-238 alpha decay chain).

Could not Radium-226, Radon-222, Polonium-218, Po-214, Po-210 exist as an original source/emitting particle, with their respective isotope decay chain, froming their own halo ???

This is the big mystery that could explain these haloes.

I'm not as ignorant of this subject as one would suppose abd I'm not being intellectually dishonest as most evolutionists would quickly accuse creationists of, in order to quickly divert from new possiblilties/discoveries being discussed or debated.....

From Tiberius' own provided link:http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/po-halos/gentry.html

Even if we assume that concentric ring haloes actually are due to alpha radiation damage, an immediate problem arises with the short half-life of the polonium isotopes themselves. In order to leave a visible radiation damage halo, the affected mica or fluorite grains would have to crystallize before the polonium decayed away to background levels - about 10 half lives. For polonium isotopes, this correlates to between a fraction of a second (Po-212, Po-214, Po-215) and 138.4 days (Po-210). Gentry's hypothesis calls for pure, concentrated polonium at the center of each ring. The model makes no distinction between which polonium isotopes should be present - thus, there should be equal likelihood for all. He points out that there is no known geochemical process by which such concentrations can occur during crystallization of a magma, concluding therefore that polonium haloes are indicative of some non-natural or supernatural occurrence.

Plonium haloes are like photographs of the relatively instant creation of primordial granite..

Switching topics a bit...creationists could be accused of being just as intellectially dishonest as creationists, respectively. All I need to do is turn it back around...

In otherwords the inverse may be true in many cases...

Is there not intellectual dishonesty on both sides, respectively ??? So let's get over it and move on to new possibilities in science, some being supernatural...

 

[FFH]

So in summary...

Radium comes from the decay of Uranium, thus you still need 4.5 billion years for Uranium to make it.
Thorium comes from the decay of Uranium 238... same problem.

Is it then intellectually dishonest to suggest that Radium-226, Radon-222 and Polonium-218, Po-214 and Po-210 could exist on their own, independent of an Uranium-238 decay chain ??? If only supernaturally ??

 

[FFH]

Po 218,214,210 come from U 238
Po 215,217 come from U 235
Po 216,212 come from Thorium 232

Radon 222 comes from U 238
Ra 219 from U 235
Ra 220 from Th 232

I'm fully aware of this, and totally understand this, and have previously posted a link to this (see Wiki) and have looked at other sites explaining this...

Was I being intellectually dishonest by not mentioning Radium-226 must be a part of the Uranium-238 decay chain ???

Those who understand this subject will come forward with that argument, no need for me to bring it up, it was a given that you, Painted Wolf, would bring it up and we could further debate it..

I fully believe each element could exist independently, from their respective decay chains and this needs to be taken into consideration as a possiblility...

Now I understand you want to take the fast track and prove your theory, but you can't do that and be intellectually honest.

Being fully aware of this, I was suggesting Radium-226 could exist on it's own, independent of the Uranium-238 isotope decay chain, knowing full well that you would say it could not exist separately and is a product of the Uranium-238 decay chain...

The reason you can't is that these other elements exist and require a massive amount of time to be created by decay of parent elements. You simply can't ignore the amount of time it takes Uranium to decay.

Yes, I realize that, you are right, we cannot ignore that and I'm aware of that...

Let's just look at these halos/halos (I've seen these two types of spellings, which is right ??) for what they might be; supernatural "photos" of an instantaneous creation of rock...the only "solid" piece, or pieces, of evidence we may have as creationists...

Any explanation of what these halos may be ??? other than independently existing Polonium particles, with their respective decay chain halos...

 

[FFH]

Intellectually dishonest = failing to mention something relative to the debate/discussion

If this is true then every debate/discussion can be considered intellectually dishonest to some degree...

Both parties are guilty of this in any debate...

So now that we have cleared the air concerning "ad hominems" and "intellectual dishonesty" and that we all do it to some degree or another, I think we can continue...

 

[DeepShadow]

If this is true then every debate/discussion can be considered intellectually dishonest to some degree...

Both parties are guilty of this in any debate...

And when they discover it, they need to correct it. That's why we point these things out to each other, so they can be addressed. So your assertion that "everyone" commits ad hominims, and "everyone" is intellectually dishonest is nothing more than lazyness. While you are reeducating us on fallacies, please add "tu quoque" to your list.

I'm very sorry that I lost your response regarding falsifiability in the maelstron of posts that followed, butMeanwhile, your latest assertion regarding haloes gives us a great opportunity: in order for this hypothesis of yours to pass muster scientifically, you must provide conditions that would demonstrate your hypothesis incorrect.

In other words, if these strange haloes were not created supernaturally, how would we know? What conditions are absent from these haloes that would have to be there if they were natural things?

No matter that I accept that God created the earth, and perhaps may have done it the way you say. If you cannot provide conditions for falsifiability, then this is not science. This is why I am not a creationist; there is no falsifiability for creation.

If we are to accept that these halos are from elements created ex-nihilo, then how are we supposed to know what element they were? We can't use the radiohaloes to track their age!

 

[FFH]

Falsifiability

You must provide conditions that would demonstrate your hypothesis incorrect.

Just as this...

is a "super" natural photograph of Christ, from the Shroud of Turin, at the time of his resurrection,

So is this...
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times New Roman, Times]

[/FONT]

a "super" natural photo of the possible relatively instant creation of primordial granite...

The time frame of this rock's creation is captured by this Po 210 particle halo...

If it were not a Po 210 halo it would have more isotope decay chain haloes...

Such as are demonstrated here, in this Uranium-238 halo illustration...

 

[FFH]

For this...

not to be considered a Po 210 halo, it would have to be the beginning of Uranium-238 decay or some other parent element to Polonium, which means that this rock could be millions of years old, and it took millions of years to form, which is an incorrect assumption.

Ganite does not require millions of years to form and did not form or cool over millions of years....

Edit: Also granite has not been recreated, in the lab, to the exact specifications, as of yet, but some rocks similar to granite have been created in the Lab over a period of a few days, weeks or months...

No one has been able to recreate granite in the lab, to it's exact specifications and composition, proving to me that it was created by a superior being, possessing a much superior intelligence than ours....

 

[DeepShadow]

not to be considered a Po 210 halo, it would have to be the beginning of Uranium-238 decay or some other parent element to Polonium, which means that this rock could be millions of years old, and it took millions of years to form, which is absurd.

Now please add "circular argument" to your list. This is not falsifiability.

Ganite does not require millions of years to form and did not form or cool over millions of years....

Just because granite can form quickly doesn't mean all the granite on the planet (hey, that rhymed...) formed that way.

The polonium haloes could actually be what you say they are, or they could be haloes of some other derivative of U-238. You have to separate the "coulds," please.

Edit: Also granite has not been recreated in the lab to the exact specifications as of yet, but some rocks similar to granite have been created in the Lab over a period of a few weeks...

Interesting. What lab?

No one has been able to create granite in the lab, proving to me that it was created by a superior being, possessing a much superior intelligence than ours....

And if some day, we're able to make it in the lab, does that make us all gods?

 

[DeepShadow]

BTW, FFH, if I understand you correctly, your hypothesis maintains that the earth was created from nothing (ex nihilo), correct?

 

[FFH]

For the Niagra Fall's theory to be incorrect, the bed of Lake Erie would've had to have been dry land at one time, being at least the same level as the two sides of the mouth of the river, which spills into Lake Erie (see map of area posted/provided earlier in thread).

If this were the case you would see a river carved out in some other area, where the water chose a lower or lesser path of resistance. There is no such evidence, unless you believe that the earth was literally bulldozed every x number of years which there is no evidence of on any planet...

Lake Erie, being significantly inland of this continent, which may have broken apart from another continent, would still not change the topography of that area...

Show me proof of the Niagra River ever having changed it's course since the creation of the earth.

 

[FFH]

BTW, FFH, if I understand you correctly, your hypothesis maintains that the earth was created from nothing (ex nihilo), correct?

No, of course not.

The earth was formed/organized with unorganized matter...

Matter is eternal, but can be changed/organized into different forms, just as we change/form different elements to create a usefel item such as a car..

..and just as we cannot destroy or create water, so we cannot destroy or create matter, but can only change it's form..