psychoslice
Veteran Member
So he believed, but he was wrong of course.
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The Earth Is a Few Thousand Years Old
- Thread starter Slapstick
- Start date
So he believed, but he was wrong of course.
Mycroft
Ministry of Serendipity
At 4.4 Billion Years Old, Oz Crystals Confirmed As World's Oldest : NPR
These 4.4 billion year old crystals phoned. They say that this talk of a 6000 year old earth is all hokey.
These 4.4 billion year old crystals phoned. They say that this talk of a 6000 year old earth is all hokey.
All from the warped minds of Moses and Paul, and of course Muhomed, or whoever it's pronounced;
Simple question.....who wrote the last scripture.....and in what language?
Off topic?
So is a young earth.....6000 years old....maybe, I'll give you 15000 yrs, seeing mankind as we know it.
But....the creation 6000 years ago....something's wrong with the initial premise
Ya think !
~
mud
Simple question.....who wrote the last scripture.....and in what language?
Off topic?
So is a young earth.....6000 years old....maybe, I'll give you 15000 yrs, seeing mankind as we know it.
But....the creation 6000 years ago....something's wrong with the initial premise
Ya think !
~
mud
That is SO COOL!!!!
Breathe
Hostis humani generis
Niiice.
I wonder how Young Earthers are going to respond to it.
Probably not very well.
Ouroboros
Coincidentia oppositorum
Niiice.
I wonder how Young Earthers are going to respond to it.
Probably not very well.
As usual, they will argue that there are "problems" with the methods. That they are unreliable and prone to errors, so therefore the results must be wrong.
If we however used any of the dating methods on a religious artifact, I'm certain they're all suddenly without error and very accurate, because that's how it works. Science is only trusted when it agrees with the religious view.
Ouroboros
Coincidentia oppositorum
I agree with you on that. The dating of Earth using the birth tables in the Bible was not invented by me, but it is used by YEC to "prove" the age of the world. They read it literally, and I think of course that's wrong.
But that's not my point.
They're wrong. Agreed. But a "strawman" is something different or more elaborate than just to be wrong.
If a YEC makes a claim about Earth being 6,000 years, and that is a strawman, it means that they don't believe what they're saying. A strawman is when you make a claim that you personally don't believe in, but you claim your opponent believes.
For instance, if I say, "creationists believe Earth is 6,000 years old", I might be making a strawman because I bundle up all creationists in one camp. I'm simplifying the "creationist" view as only being the YEC view, but we know there are old Earth creationists as well. So I'm making a strawman if I claim all creationists are young Earth creationists.
But for a young Earth creationist to say that he/she believes Earth is 6,000 years old, is not a strawman. He/she is just being factually wrong.
I respect Christians who embrace old Earth and evolution. And I've been trying to help Robin1, call_of_the_wild, rusra, and other believers on this site to accept that the Bible can be read in a different way and incorporate science and evolution, but so far, no luck.
But I used to be a YEC myself, and I know many of them. So it's a strawman to say that they don't exist.
You're preaching to the choir. I don't take the Bible as an historical book.
Tell that to the Young Earth Creationists like Ken Ham or Kenneth Hovind.
Henry M Morris started the modern trend of this Young Earth Creationism "science" to prove that old Earth is wrong. Try to tell his followers they're wrong... it's near impossible to get them to agree to science.
Absolutely. I agree.
No. The term "strawman" isn't a label for "being wrong".
Example:
Creationist: I believe God created the world
Non-Creationist: You believe the world is 6,000 years old? Here's the science proving you wrong:....
The non-Creationist is making a strawman fallacy there. The NC is rewriting the creationist's view to make it easier to beat down.
Example 2:
Creationist: I believe God created the world 6,000 years ago.
Atheist: You believe the world is 6,000 years old? Here's the science proving you wrong:....
Neither is making a strawman in the second example. The creationist is just plainly wrong, ignorant, or blinded by faith. But it's not a strawman.
All I'm saying is that you're using the term "strawman" wrong.
Look it up. Here's a link: https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/659/03/
Ouroboros
Coincidentia oppositorum
It can't unless the word "years" changes meaning mid-sentence.
Something to be 6,000 inches long, but is really 13 billion inches long.
Or something is 6,000 ounces, but is really 13 billion ounces.
Or a book with 6,000 letters, but really 13 billion letters.
dantech
Well-Known Member
Wouldn't it be possible for a creationist God to create an old world?
For example, in the Genesis account, to you think he planted a tree, or did he create a fully grown tree?
Did he create a 1 second old Adam, or did he create a grown man?
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
All the scientific evidence, and there's tons of it, points in the direction that the Earth and the cosmos are much older than just several thousand years, which puts me in the position of asking why would God be such a trickster to make all that evidence to point in that direction if it's not true? To me, the minute we go with something like that, then maybe we should consider that maybe God tricked us with the Law, so we should go in the opposite direction than what it teaches?
InChrist
Free4ever
Why must it be trickery on God's part that comes to your mind rather than the possibility of misinterpreting of the evidence on the part of humans?
Ouroboros
Coincidentia oppositorum
God could also have created the world last Tuesday and just inplanted the memories in our brains of a past life.
The question is, why would God go through such trouble of creating a world that gave us a deceptive impression of what it really was?
Isn't it easier to believe in a God that doesn't create fake worlds?
Consider this, God would have to create light from stars millions of years away. Stars that he will eventually destroy. But they're million of light years away so why even bother making them if it's just the light and illusion of their existence that matters? Why create any star light at all if there's no need to create the stars? If there's no need to create 20 sixtillion stars, then why make the impression of such a huge universe? If there's no need for a huge universe, then it's no need to create all this at all.
Take SN1987A for instance. Using just trigonometry and some basic facts, we know that event must've happened about 160,000 years ago. Why would God even plant just light from a star that never existed?
If God is lying about the stars and the age of the universe, how can we trust him at all? How can we know he's telling the truth about anything?
Ouroboros
Coincidentia oppositorum
The distance to the stars and their light is not a question about misinterpretation.
SN1987A did happen about 160,000 years ago, or God planted fake light from that star for 6,000 years. A star that never existed. That would make God a liar.
McBell
Unbound
Or perhaps even a misinterpretation of what someone thinks god said?
McBell
Unbound
I suspect that it is those who claim to know what god said are just plain flat out wrong.
Ouroboros
Coincidentia oppositorum
Here's one thought in all this. Suppose that Genesis was written by Moses. How did he get to know the story? God told him? How? In a dream, vision, exactly how? If it was a dream or vision, how could Moses capture what he saw in it? He could only use his own words, like "created from dirt", "in one day", etc. He wouldn't have the words to explain what he saw. He would have to use whatever language that would come to his mind. So, here we are, interpreting his subjective words from a vision or dream about something that even our smartest scientists today are trying to figure out. Why would it ever have to be interpreted literally? Even if it was true that God showed Moses a vision, there's no reason to take Moses' words as literal.
And here's another thought. Let's say God did plant all the evidence for an old Earth and evolution but in reality he created it in 6 days, 6,000 years ago, etc. Now, if that was true, then scientists have it all right. They got it right. They are being fooled by God's planted evidence. God must've made such a great job hiding the truth and planting all these lights, fossils, DNA, and more just to fool our scientists. Which means... they're getting the foolery right. They are interpreting the evidence exactly the way God wanted them to. So why fight them? Why argue against the evidence? The evidence is supposed to look old. It's supposed to look like evolution. And in the end, the young Earth creationist must, he/she must only rely on faith and an old story. They can't rely on evidence since God intentionally and skillfully planted the evidence to the contrary. The evidence must say the world is old, and the believers of young Earth must rely on belief only. So why is the young Earth creationist fighting so hard against the science when that's exactly what God didn't want?
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shawn001
Well-Known Member
The universe is 13.7 billion years with a margin of error of less then 1%.
The Earth 4.7 billion.
We know the time it took for our solar system to form. We know how our solar system formed. We know the conditions of the early earth and that the moon was formed by a collision with a planet the size of mars. We know tons of debris was flying everywhere in space at the time of the formation of the solar system. For one, hence all the craters in the moon and that was billions of years ago. We also now the moon was closer and is drifting away from us. We also know the sun is 5 billion years old and will burn for another 5 with a life of 10 billion before it goes red giant.
We know there have been at least five mass extinctions on the planet. and life evolved back from each extinction event.
We know life COULD NOT survive the early earth until the planet cooled and the IRON core cooled for one to create the Van Allen belts to protect the surface from solar radiation. Everything would have been fried.
We also know we are carbon life forms and carbon come from supernova explosions as do all the heavy elements.
Back in the early 1800's they were studying the A Helderberg Escarpment and the formation of Niagara Falls. They named a park after one of my relatives and they were some of the first settlers of NY.
John Boyd Thacher State Park
However
"The Helderberg Plateau comprises mainly a series of limestones of early Devonian age and is one of the most fossiliferous regions in the United States. The park is a window in to New York's geological history, the rocks here take us back in time hundreds of millions of years. In the park, you can see the Schenectady beds, the Roundout "waterlime" or dolostone, the upper and lower Manlius, and many other geological formations. The plateau also has rocks of the Upper Silurian and Upper and Middle Ordovician ages resting below the Devonian rocks.[4]"
John Boyd Thacher State Park - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"The escarpment was formed more than 100 million years ago, when layers of limestone, sandstone, and shale were uplifted and eroded by wind, water, and other elements. As softer rock wore away, limestone broke off along vertical cracks, leaving a jagged, perpendicular wall. Thacher Park includes this escarpment and extends west along the wide, elevated plateau on top.
Early visitors were drawn to the Helderbergs by scientific interests. In the 1830s, geologists began studying the regions superb exposures of upper Silurian and Devonian strata and its extraordinary collection of marine
fossils. One prominent scientist called the Helderbergs a key to the geology of North America."
http://nysparks.com/parks/attachments/ThacherHistoryofThacherStatePark.pdf
There are also huge underground seabeds a MILE under the great lakes.
So in 1830 they knew the earth was at least millions of years old, yet you still have the very scientific illerate people caliming its 6000-to 10,000. THERE WERE PEOPLE THEN. We know a lot of what was going on then and before. This is just the tip of billions of facts.
That the YECers belief is even promoted is totally ridiculous to say the least.
If you go to the Channel Islands National Park in Cal they have The Pygmy Mammoth fossils.
"Approximately 40,000 to 20,000 years ago, a small group of 14-foot tall, 20,000-pound Columbian mammoths embarked on a journey that would eventually end in the development of a new speciesthe Channel Islands pygmy mammoth. Leaving the heavily grazed mainland behind, these Columbian mammoths swam towards the scents of abundant vegetation from the huge, mountainous island of Santarosae.
Approximately 20,000 years ago when sea level was about 300 feet lower than it is today, the four northern islands joined together to form an Ice Age superisland known as Santarosae. This island was only 6 miles from the mainland at its closest distance. As the ice sheets and glaciers melted and the sea level rose, only the highest parts of Santarosae remained as modern islands."
http://www.nps.gov/chis/historyculture/pygmymammoth.htm
and
The Valley of the Whales - Tour Egypt another place going back to the 1800's
"There is another even more ancient Egypt that is known to very few people. The Fayoum area contains some of the best preserved paleontological sites in the world one of which is Wadi Hitan or the Valley of Whales. This is a remote valley in the Western Desert of Egypt. At 150 kilometers southwest of Cairo, the valley is located near the Al-Katrani mountain range, a well known and valuable geological site for its rare vertebrate fossils and mega-fossils.
"Geological studies have been carried out in the area since the 1800's. The first skeletons of Basilosaurus were found around 1830 but were never collected due to the difficult accessibility to the site at that time. At first, it was thought to be a huge marine reptile, and hence was called the Basilosaurus meaning King Lizard. It was only later on that the species were identified as whales which at a certain point in history, moved easily between land and sea. The whale site and fossils at Wadi Hitan clearly portray the forms and modes of life during that transitional phase representing one of the major stories of mammal evolution: the emergence of the whale as an ocean-going mammal from a previous life as a land-based animal. In 1989, a research team led by D. Gingerich had found that the whales retained useless legs, feet, and toes representing rear legs that were later lost in the evolution cycle. Many of the whale skeletons are in good condition as they have been well preserved in the rock formations. Semi-complete skeletons are found in the valley in-situ and in some cases, even stomach contents are sometimes preserved."
The Valley of the Whales
These are just some of why we know these things, like ice core samples going back a million years. Its an insult to tons of scientists who have dedicated their lives to figuring out some of these mysteries and the shear amount of work that has been done.
This is 2014 and the earth is for a fact NOT 6 to 10 thousands years old.
The Earth 4.7 billion.
We know the time it took for our solar system to form. We know how our solar system formed. We know the conditions of the early earth and that the moon was formed by a collision with a planet the size of mars. We know tons of debris was flying everywhere in space at the time of the formation of the solar system. For one, hence all the craters in the moon and that was billions of years ago. We also now the moon was closer and is drifting away from us. We also know the sun is 5 billion years old and will burn for another 5 with a life of 10 billion before it goes red giant.
We know there have been at least five mass extinctions on the planet. and life evolved back from each extinction event.
We know life COULD NOT survive the early earth until the planet cooled and the IRON core cooled for one to create the Van Allen belts to protect the surface from solar radiation. Everything would have been fried.
We also know we are carbon life forms and carbon come from supernova explosions as do all the heavy elements.
Back in the early 1800's they were studying the A Helderberg Escarpment and the formation of Niagara Falls. They named a park after one of my relatives and they were some of the first settlers of NY.
John Boyd Thacher State Park
However
"The Helderberg Plateau comprises mainly a series of limestones of early Devonian age and is one of the most fossiliferous regions in the United States. The park is a window in to New York's geological history, the rocks here take us back in time hundreds of millions of years. In the park, you can see the Schenectady beds, the Roundout "waterlime" or dolostone, the upper and lower Manlius, and many other geological formations. The plateau also has rocks of the Upper Silurian and Upper and Middle Ordovician ages resting below the Devonian rocks.[4]"
John Boyd Thacher State Park - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"The escarpment was formed more than 100 million years ago, when layers of limestone, sandstone, and shale were uplifted and eroded by wind, water, and other elements. As softer rock wore away, limestone broke off along vertical cracks, leaving a jagged, perpendicular wall. Thacher Park includes this escarpment and extends west along the wide, elevated plateau on top.
Early visitors were drawn to the Helderbergs by scientific interests. In the 1830s, geologists began studying the regions superb exposures of upper Silurian and Devonian strata and its extraordinary collection of marine
fossils. One prominent scientist called the Helderbergs a key to the geology of North America."
http://nysparks.com/parks/attachments/ThacherHistoryofThacherStatePark.pdf
There are also huge underground seabeds a MILE under the great lakes.
So in 1830 they knew the earth was at least millions of years old, yet you still have the very scientific illerate people caliming its 6000-to 10,000. THERE WERE PEOPLE THEN. We know a lot of what was going on then and before. This is just the tip of billions of facts.
That the YECers belief is even promoted is totally ridiculous to say the least.
If you go to the Channel Islands National Park in Cal they have The Pygmy Mammoth fossils.
"Approximately 40,000 to 20,000 years ago, a small group of 14-foot tall, 20,000-pound Columbian mammoths embarked on a journey that would eventually end in the development of a new speciesthe Channel Islands pygmy mammoth. Leaving the heavily grazed mainland behind, these Columbian mammoths swam towards the scents of abundant vegetation from the huge, mountainous island of Santarosae.
Approximately 20,000 years ago when sea level was about 300 feet lower than it is today, the four northern islands joined together to form an Ice Age superisland known as Santarosae. This island was only 6 miles from the mainland at its closest distance. As the ice sheets and glaciers melted and the sea level rose, only the highest parts of Santarosae remained as modern islands."
http://www.nps.gov/chis/historyculture/pygmymammoth.htm
and
The Valley of the Whales - Tour Egypt another place going back to the 1800's
"There is another even more ancient Egypt that is known to very few people. The Fayoum area contains some of the best preserved paleontological sites in the world one of which is Wadi Hitan or the Valley of Whales. This is a remote valley in the Western Desert of Egypt. At 150 kilometers southwest of Cairo, the valley is located near the Al-Katrani mountain range, a well known and valuable geological site for its rare vertebrate fossils and mega-fossils.
"Geological studies have been carried out in the area since the 1800's. The first skeletons of Basilosaurus were found around 1830 but were never collected due to the difficult accessibility to the site at that time. At first, it was thought to be a huge marine reptile, and hence was called the Basilosaurus meaning King Lizard. It was only later on that the species were identified as whales which at a certain point in history, moved easily between land and sea. The whale site and fossils at Wadi Hitan clearly portray the forms and modes of life during that transitional phase representing one of the major stories of mammal evolution: the emergence of the whale as an ocean-going mammal from a previous life as a land-based animal. In 1989, a research team led by D. Gingerich had found that the whales retained useless legs, feet, and toes representing rear legs that were later lost in the evolution cycle. Many of the whale skeletons are in good condition as they have been well preserved in the rock formations. Semi-complete skeletons are found in the valley in-situ and in some cases, even stomach contents are sometimes preserved."
The Valley of the Whales
These are just some of why we know these things, like ice core samples going back a million years. Its an insult to tons of scientists who have dedicated their lives to figuring out some of these mysteries and the shear amount of work that has been done.
This is 2014 and the earth is for a fact NOT 6 to 10 thousands years old.
shawn001
Well-Known Member
Plate tectonics
Pangea
Did you know the world used to be one big super-continent? Kasey-Dee Gardner finds out why it pulled apart.
[youtube]hPjFw3269P8[/youtube]
Why? Tell Me Why! Pangea - YouTube
Even kids notice this before it was proven.
From Pangaea to the Modern Continents
[youtube]WaUk94AdXPA[/youtube]
From Pangaea to the Modern Continents - YouTube
Earth 100 Million Years From Now
"Earth's landmasses were not always what they are today. Continents formed as Earth's crustal plates shifted and collided over long periods of time. This video shows how today's continents are thought to have evolved over the last 600 million years, and where they'll end up in the next 100 million years. Paleogeographic Views of Earth's History provided by Ron Blakey, Professor of Geology, Northern Arizona University."
[youtube]uGcDed4xVD4[/youtube]
Earth 100 Million Years From Now - YouTube
Pangea
Did you know the world used to be one big super-continent? Kasey-Dee Gardner finds out why it pulled apart.
[youtube]hPjFw3269P8[/youtube]
Why? Tell Me Why! Pangea - YouTube
Even kids notice this before it was proven.
From Pangaea to the Modern Continents
[youtube]WaUk94AdXPA[/youtube]
From Pangaea to the Modern Continents - YouTube
Earth 100 Million Years From Now
"Earth's landmasses were not always what they are today. Continents formed as Earth's crustal plates shifted and collided over long periods of time. This video shows how today's continents are thought to have evolved over the last 600 million years, and where they'll end up in the next 100 million years. Paleogeographic Views of Earth's History provided by Ron Blakey, Professor of Geology, Northern Arizona University."
[youtube]uGcDed4xVD4[/youtube]
Earth 100 Million Years From Now - YouTube
When I say I disagree with it. I am not saying a straw man is based on being wrong. I am saying they are superimposing their beliefs and using what they want to believe as a crutch for truth, while denying actual evidence in regards to the age of the earth and chronological events.
They don't believe in science or anything that goes against their beliefs and use their beliefs to refute or "deny" current science.
Agreed.
Also Agree.
I understand your argument and point. As I have acknowledge after further debate, YEC do exist, with the likes of Ken Ham. Although I find it hard to believe that their beliefs are not straw man simply because they are against science. They are distinguishing their beliefs between what they want to believe and choose not to.
I preach to no one.
I will. Give me his contact information and I will tell him everything I have told you in this debate and find out what his response is.
I will tell them why they are wrong too. Tell me where I can contact a representative.
I agree nor am I trying to argue that. But most of the time it is wanting to deny what someone else is wanting to say or what current scientific evidence points to.
I understand your position, but haven't been provided with any evidence as to how I am using the term straw man wrong. I think a straw man is a straw man whether its a rebuttal or an argument trying to prove someone else wrong in saying that "my position is right and yours is wrong."