The Emerging World Religion

[Yoshua]

I'm not sure what you have written on your mind and heart since you're focused on everything written in a book in which you perceive as existing literally, and outside of you and as images of your beast.

There is a vital power/energy/light residing in all humans as their "force and breath of life."
"The Christ" and "Holy Spirit" are no different.

Man has power based on his God given physical nature. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. Christ is not the Holy Spirit. Christ gave us the Holy Spirit to guide His followers in righteousness.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

It's not in a fish's nature to live outside of water so it CANNOT.

It's not in "God" nature to lie so "God" CANNOT.

Seems simple when left at that.

But you had to add that "God" CAN do whatever "God" wants.

Why should we add that God’s nature is to lie if His nature is not to lie? God can do whatever He wants in accordance to His nature as God who is divine and Holy.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

If everything that you think you knew and believed about "God" were lies, it would be a great tribulation for you to change. You would literally feel like your world were dying, death to yourself. The truth would be painful.

The world is your inner world.

You think that the Christ is a literal guy coming to conquer the entire world. You worship these images that come from your beast. They are everything contrary to "God." Death to these vain imaginations would be painful and a great tribulation for you. The Christ comes internally to destroy that in you, but first you have to deny yourself and deny everything you've been conditioned to exoterically believe.

Christ conquered the world by crucifixion and resurrection so people may come to Him freely to receive the salvation of eternal life. I don’t worship the image or beast that you’re saying because I’m a follower of Christ and protected by God. Those are not vain imaginations but the truth itself.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

First of all, I said a mystic's desire is unity with God. To which you said that proves the mystic wants a one-world-religion, which has nothing to do with what I had just said. Then when I pointed that out to you, you reply with this non-sequitur. Even if we are following our own will, which no true mystic does, it doesn't follow that he wants a one-world-religion. The desire of this mystic is to transcend religion in unity with God, not to unite all religions. We want everyone to have their own religions, follow their own paths to finding God and then move beyond religion and see others beyond religious boundaries, not adopt a new unified one controlled by some ego-maniac at the top!

You refuse to listen to our words. Your's is a willful ignorance, which is sin against God, yourself, and others.

Hi Windwalker,

To believe that God is a universal God to all beliefs system, acceptable whether what their religion or faith they had (even if they are not a follower of Christ) is considered an access and opening to a one world religion. It is not for mystics, but to all people who chose to embrace and adhered different beliefs aside from his own faith.

I believed Jesus say “Follow Me” and not “Follow them.”

First of all, his last name is spelled Wilber, with an e, not a u. Secondly Ken Wilber is not a religious leader. He is an Integral philosopher. He's not a guru, he's not teaching a path, he's not teaching religious practices, he's not even teaching meditation techniques. If he is a religious leader, he's a pretty poor one! What he does do however is examine multiple disciplines in the sciences and in world religions and creates maps of the territory, showing how they all relate to each other, as well as how they differ and why. He's a theoretician. Get your facts straight, again.

Ok. Thanks for correcting his name. Then, if Mr. Wilber is not a religious leader then, he is effective maybe in philosophy.

Thirdly, regarding your comment, "Open to Buddhism, Hinduism, and other spiritual enlightenment", why not? Why the hell not? But let me clarify one point first, I'm not sure what you mean by "other spiritual enlightenment". Spiritual enlightenment is spiritual enlightenment. How it manifests itself is both the same, and differently to everyone, even those within the same religion. No two people in the world understand God in the same way because no two people are 100% clones of each other. Each person interprets their experiences differently, even if it is an experience of the same thing.

Spiritual enlightenment under Buddhism, Hindus, New Age, TM, Bahai faith etc….

But in the real world where real people live, we all share our own experiences of the same thing with one another, and we learn from each other's perspectives and interpretations. Other's points of view inform us, and it doesn't matter if it's going to a rock concert together, or experiencing God. So to listen to others who have experienced enlightenment is a good thing. We can learn from them. We should learn from them.

I already learned something from them but not following their practices. Learning is different from following in Christ.

As far "open to Buddhism [and] Hinduism", again, why not? Think about it in terms like this. Let me put in in the argument of one imaginary American scientist to another. "What do you mean you've been reading into the research done by that Japanese physicist! Why are you open to what a scientist from an entirely different country has to say? You're going to be led astray because they speak a different language, eat different food, and have different customs than you do! Come back into the fold of American science and do not let yourself be open to those who have found the truth!"

I rest my case. It's complete stupidity. Why not listen to others who experience the same thing? Again, I consider a closed-mind, as well as a closed-heart, to be a sin against God, yourself, and others.

Opening or open to other religion/beliefs are the same as opening yourself to accept their doctrines--as valid and true. I’m very thankful indeed that I know something about contemplative spirituality but taking it as my faith in God and practice them is a big deal for me.

If someone is following a path to God, they are following Jesus because that's what he did. He opened himself to God and followed that path, and urged others to do the same as he. "Follow me", do what I did. Again, even within Christianity itself, there are multiple spiritual beliefs because there are multiple individuals. There are as many understandings, and unique paths as there are people. Don't deceive yourself believing otherwise. The only thing you are saying is this, that they should all look like how you think and believe. That is why it is in fact you who wants a one-world-religion. Sameness.

Ok. This is one example that I would choose to let you know how your interpretation goes. It is like you’re saying if a Hindu is following a God, he is already categorized as a follower of Jesus. Oh my! What a kind of commitment is that?
How could you say that you already followed Jesus if you did not believe all of His words in the Bible?

Secondly, your interpretation of following Jesus is not denying yourself because “denying yourself” is giving yourself to God to obey His will rather than yours.

Thirdly, your interpretation of many understandings and unique paths; nowhere did Jesus said that there are many understanding. The understanding that Jesus taught us--is the understanding only through Him from the Father.

No, your assumption that I’m telling you to do how I think is not my intention. I’m refuting your statement in accordance with what Jesus had said in His words. One world religion is not Christianity, you may do some research about that.

The truth is it is. "There is neither Greek nor Jew but all are one in Christ". You on the other hand badly interpret that to mean they become one by converting to a new religion. You mistake "In Christ" for "In Christianity"! Are you actually follow Christ, or a religion in that name, mistaking the one for the other? I say we transcend religion in Unitive Consciousness, a single Heart, or to use another term, "In Christ". It doesn't matter what name it's called. Everyone is allowed to preserve their uniqueness, which includes their own culture's religions. If they find God, they have followed Jesus, even if never by name.

Oh, another misinterpretation. It says it is neither Greek or Jew and not period, to stop here. This is how I see your interpretation goes. The continuation of the phrase is “but all are one in Christ.” That is in Christ (only), not in all beliefs/faiths. Now, what is in Christ? The Gentiles and the Jews will be gathered into one as a believer and a follower of Christ. It is illogical to comprehend that they are one in Christ but not received and accepted Christ’s teachings.

Now, in turn you ask me if I’m following Christ? Absolutely! Following Christ is not just saying to follow a name, it is a commitment to follow Him just like other major belief such as Buddhist who strictly followed the teachings of Buddha and Muslim to Allah.

How can you follow Christ without converting yourself as “denying yourself” and follow Jesus if you are not converted? To be contemplatives believers?

Did Paul, Nicodemus, Philippian jailer, Cornelius and the disciple of Christ are not converted for Christ?

John 3:3
3. Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
I don’t think Jesus will say this statement if there is no need of conversion.

Acts 3:19
Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,

Acts 15:3
So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and brought great joy to all the brothers.

 

[Yoshua]

They can remain Greek, they can remain Jew, they can remain Hindu, and so forth. Jesus did not teach a new religious system. He taught love that allowed others to overcome these differences by transcending them in love. You on the other hand insist on conquering others making them the same as you, holding a bible in your hand and screaming, "Submit to God's authority over you! Obey or you shall perish! It's not my word, but God's word!". That's definitely falling short of the mark, the standard that Jesus set. Don't you think?

Who tell us that they cannot remain Hindus, Greek, Gentiles etc…? Yes, they can do so because they can choose their own path of righteousness which they believe is right to them.

What you’re saying that Jesus did not teach a new religious system is true. He taught us to worship the Lord our God, to love God and our neighbors; to deny ourselves by following Him; to believe and receive Him.

Your idea about Christianity is not the Christianity of Christ. Why it is hard for you to believe and submit that Jesus told us to follow His word? It is just very surprising that you used me as the authority to submit God. That is wrong. I’m not the authority and have no power to condemn you. My basis is the word of Christ.

What I observed from you are doubts with God’s word. I believed that is the cause of your non-acceptance to God’s authority, and therefore thinking it as unnecessary to follow God. How someone who believed in a deity does not submit to his God? Muslim submits to Allah and followed his teachings. Buddhist believed and followed Buddha’s teachings. Why not for Christ?

Jesus submits to the Father’s authority. The disciples of Christ submitted and followed Jesus' word. How about that? I did not say you follow me.

Whoever abides in love, abides in his word. How they believe with the mind is irrelevant. You make salvation contingent upon correct beliefs and practices. Jesus makes salvation based on what lies in the heart. It doesn't sound to me like you are abiding in his word, which is love.

Oh my!. You twist and change the statement of Jesus, it seems that you’re the one who is right rather than Jesus. .Is there a problem with Jesus’ statement? Jesus said abide in His word, the word of Jesus (His teachings).

Ok. If you want about love, this is statement of Jesus about love. It says if a person keep His commandments, he is abiding in love. Now, if he want to prove that he love Jesus, he must keep His word. Jesus did not remove His commandment to KEEP HIS WORD.

John 15:10
10. "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

John 14:23
23. Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

I tend to think that when we decribe ''I am'' as something (eg. I am a soldier), we run the risk of losing the identity of ''I am''.

Hi Janardena,

Why it loose the identity of being “I”? It is not.

Before you are a follower of Christ, you are ''I am'', and ''me''.

Before, I’m not a follower of Christ.

When Jesus said '' "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.''
Could he be referring to that ''I am'' and ''me'' and not maybe his own self?

He is referring to Himself as the Son who was sent by the Father when He said “I am.” It is through Him so everyone can come to the Father. He is the access to the Father because He was sent. But all glory belongs to the Father (God).

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

I fail to see how what Jesus says in that verse has anything to do with what Wilber (with an e), is saying above. To examine the great religions of the world informs us of how faith works in all the world religions, including Christianity. Jesus doesn't say, "If anyone wished to come after me, he must deny his mind and bury his head in the sand.". Again though, understanding world religions helps us to understand ourselves, and then we follow the path of Jesus, the path of love, regardless of what name you give it.

Windwalker,

You forgot the phrase of Jesus “Follow Me.” Yes, as Wilber said, we have access of the great world’s religions; never did Jesus said the statement—to gain access in other beliefs. He focused on what He’s teachings to follow Him. If the word “examine” by Wilber means to believe, embrace and practice world religions, that surely would not acceptable with the statement of Jesus from “denying oneself and follow Him.” But if “examine” is just to learn their traditions and practices (knowing it) surely does not contradict with the statement of Jesus.

Wait, what??? Wilber said we get rid of the belief that one's own path is the only path. How is it you take that to say there is no true path? They're all true paths, if you are following love. There are many religious paths to God, but the true path is the one of the heart.

Why?? Did you think that Jesus proclaiming as the truth is for other world religions to embrace and accept? How come??

See. You believed that all are true paths while Jesus said He is the way, the truth and the life (only one path is through Him). Your true path is “one of the heart,” Oh! I see. This is cleared with me now that you’re saying to follow his heart (his own desire) as the true path of himself rather than Jesus. That seems a denial of Jesus, and not denial of oneself for Jesus.

Your statements are (all) absolutely irreconcilable and contradictory with the statement of Christ as the true path. It is equivalent of treating the “sacrifice and suffering of Christ” as not too important and not a priority to one’s faith and salvation.

Gal. 1:6-8
6. I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,
7. which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.

First of all, you're quoting the OT and you already have taken away considerable portions of it in your practices. When was the last time someone in your church stoned their children to death for disobeying them, or at least terrorized them with being put to death? But aside from that obvious fact, "obeying God", is obeying Spirit, and that is a matter of heart. What was being dictated in that verse is NOT spirituality, but law. Have you ever read the NT yet?

Why? Are all commandment of God in the Old Testament are not applicable or obsolete? Do you think that God allows adding word to Christ’s doctrines?

How about the statement of “keeping the commandment of God” in Deut. 4:2? Did Jesus once said,

John 15:10
10. "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
Is keeping the commandment of God and commandment of Jesus were not the same? Kindly think about that.

If Deut. 4:2 say that you shall not add word to the command of God, Gal. 1:6-12 and Prov. 30:5-6 told us not to add another teachings to God’s words. It is like you’re making your own Bible, do someone will tell you that you should not add anything to other religion’s doctrines? It is a very logical not to add anything to other religion’s doctrine.

Prov. 30:5-6
5. Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
6. Do not add to His words, lest He reprove you, and you be found a liar.

Gal. 1:6-12
6. I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,
7. which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
9. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
10. For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a servant of Christ.
11. But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.
12. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

1 Tim. 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,

New Testament clearly warned and reminded us to keep watch, be aware with false doctrines, that would mean anything that will add or subtract to the doctrine of Christ will be considered contrary with Christ’s teachings.

 

[Yoshua]

Absolutely, that's the point. Letting go of trying to "please God", or to "build our egos", and simply resting in the Infinite. Then, we find what we have always already had, which is God within us. When you find that, with the heart, not with the mind believing the bible or some such external thing, but with the heart, then you are free. Then you know peace. Then you know joy. Then you are strengthened by Spirit itself. This is what the mystical experience is all about. And you are absolutely wrong to say it is of our own efforts. It is not. You're trying to "obey God", by following the Bible as if it were a book of laws, like Leviticus was, will never realize what these verses teach.

Oh! How can you believe the Bible without the mind? Of course, a follower of Christ used his heart to accept, repent, commit, receive, submit and dedicate his life to Christ. Our mind is used by renewing it to know God’s will. We will know that we are free if we know the truth, because the truth will set us free, and not the truth by our own knowledge, understanding and desires. Peace comes from Christ for the follower of Christ. There is always joy if anyone is in Christ. The Spirit strengthened and guide us. He is the instrument that we have the peace, love and joy. It is not using our own effort or good works to have peace, joy and love. The Spirit is the source and not our own self, for it is the fruit of the Spirit, and not fruit of our own desires.

Gal. 5:22
22. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

It did not say “But the fruit of our own effort is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, then you are strengthened by Spirit itself.” This is contrary to what you think is the fruit for the mystics.

The only Spirit. The Bible speaks of it as the Holy Spirit. There are plenty of other terms for it used in the world religions. How is it within us? Because there is nowhere it is not, nor cannot be. It's never further away than your own breath. It is not outside of you, but in you and all that is.

Do you know how the Holy Spirit will dwell or within us?

1 Cor. 2:10-12
10. For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
11. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man, which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things freely given to us by God,

The Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit is clearly for the follower of Christ, to those who received Him.

Acts 2:38
38. And Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Gal. 3:2
2. This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Eph. 1:13-14
13. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14. who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

My God. Liberation is not in what you can learn or believe with your mind. How many tens of thousands of times is it necessary to repeat what I've said from the first time? The path to liberation is to get rid of the separate self and all that creates it, to the point we realize the reality of who we are in God. It is an act of the mind and it's ego-grasping, looking for answers in belief systems, such as you do. But allowing what is within us to be known by us, and for us to live in accord with that Spirit, "obeying" is, as it were, moving with it, as a living, dynamic, flowing, actual reality is spirituality, is liberation, is freedom. "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberation".

When we try to "believe" our way into it, we are coming in "another way", like Jesus was referring to when he said, "Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber." He was speaking this to those who were religious and insisted on "the right way" which was the way in which they interpreted the law. You do the same, and try to enter another way, and find yourself outside of your own heart.

Are you sure on what you’re saying that? Your chosen scripture is purely "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberation” is a proof-text to connect with Wilber’s statement.

Let us check if you’re truly saying that I was like a Pharisee.
John 8:31-32
31. Jesus therefore was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32. and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Based on the statement of Jesus, we should first abide in His word, to prove that we are His disciple. Then, after you become a disciple (a follower), you shall know the truth, that is liberation in Christ.

Did I insist my way when I just repeated what Jesus say? Did I insist my way when I quoted John 14:23?

Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him”

I think the Pharisees would not like to follow what Jesus had to say like (statements above) abiding and keeping His words. Most of all, the phrase “Follow Me.”

As you have said before, “They're all true paths, if you are following love. There are many religious paths to God, but the true path is the one of the heart.” How can you live with the Spirit of God if your true path is all religions that claimed following love, rather than the love of Jesus, that say “I am the way, the truth and the life”??

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

No I don't, and here's why.

Witchcraft is condemned by Levitican Law because witchcraft involves communicating with the dead. The thinking was that if one could communicate with the dead, the dead are not really dead, but alive -- and, if alive, then (in some indeterminate way) deity. Since the Jews were adamant about their monotheism, communication with the dead was seen to challenge that monotheism, hence the injunctions against such practices.

Hi Sojourner,

So, therefore it is still detestable to God whether or whatever reason behind it. How can you change what God had forbidden?

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

Because salvation is a systemic paradigm -- not an individual paradigm. In your scenario, salvation would be an act of human beings -- not an act of God, which contradicts what you've said about salvation in the past. Which is it? Act of humanity, or act of God?

Of course, I believe that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. There is no one who claimed He is the Saviour, the truth (died for us), Lord and offered eternal life other than Jesus.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

Because salvation is a systemic paradigm -- not an individual paradigm. In your scenario, salvation would be an act of human beings -- not an act of God, which contradicts what you've said about salvation in the past. Which is it? Act of humanity, or act of God?

Oh my! How come the offered salvation by Christ become a systematic paradigm??

Salvation for me done by Christ is an act of God for us.

John 3:16
16. "For God (act of God) so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

No one is accusing mystics of seeking a one world religion, at least I'm not. Nevertheless, there are those who do desire such and see it as a good thing whether for benevolent reasons or simply for power and control. The problem is not that you or other mystics are seeking some kind of universal "religion", rather it is your belief as expressed above, "God is not other to self and self is not other to God" along with the view that all religions are simply tools in the tool chest which may be used to experience realization of God. This is what will allow you to be duped by Lucifer, who from behind the scenes, knows how to manipulate the minds desires of humans. It will not be presented (at first) as a world "religion" in the sense of traditional religions, but a higher, enlightened spirituality which encompasses all paths promising peace and unity...concepts already compatible with mysticism. Only later, when everyone is on board, will the real intentions of this global spirituality be manifested, but it will be too late for any who rejected the truth of salvation through the Savior Jesus Christ and the spiritual discernment of God's revealed word. .

"All religions, from the most legalistic to the most liberal to the mystical, have self at the core of one’s achieving a positive consequence regarding life after death. Only biblical Christianity teaches that denying self and turning to Jesus alone for one’s salvation is acceptable to God. The Bible indicates that Satan’s lie that humanity can achieve godhood will ultimately manifest itself in the last days through the Antichrist, who “opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, [showing] himself that he is God” (2 Thessalonians:2:4)"
excerpt from:
http://www.thebereancall.org/content/self-mankind-s-number-one-problem

Wow. This is a good information and truth about "Self." If anyone is in Christ, his "self" is in accordance with God's will already. Not my will but yours be done. Amen.

 

[Windwalker]

Oh! How can you believe the Bible without the mind?

I don't consider "believing the Bible" to be a requirement of anything spiritual. I don't even believe it is a requirement of being a Christian! I believe that's a requirement of your particular flavor of Christian fundamentalist cult you are attracted to. It's not a legitimate requirement for anyone else however.

Of course, a follower of Christ used his heart to accept, repent, commit, receive, submit and dedicate his life to Christ. Our mind is used by renewing it to know God’s will. We will know that we are free if we know the truth, because the truth will set us free, and not the truth by our own knowledge, understanding and desires. Peace comes from Christ for the follower of Christ. There is always joy if anyone is in Christ. The Spirit strengthened and guide us. He is the instrument that we have the peace, love and joy. It is not using our own effort or good works to have peace, joy and love. The Spirit is the source and not our own self, for it is the fruit of the Spirit, and not fruit of our own desires.

These sound like all the right words, but when I lift the bun, I see no meat patty inside. It's just dry white bread that looks like a hamburger from the description on the menu, but what you serve your customers is missing the actual meat however. Substanceless words on a page is all. The description is correct, the product is wrong. Where's the beef, Dave?

 

[sojourner]

Hi Sojourner,

So, therefore it is still detestable to God whether or whatever reason behind it. How can you change what God had forbidden?

Thanks

Resurrection was, likewise "detestable" for the same reason. The concept of monotheism had to change to include the possibility of Jesus. Just as our own concept of monotheism has to change in order to see all religions in equity as pathways to the Divine.

 

[sojourner]

Of course, I believe that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. There is no one who claimed He is the Saviour, the truth (died for us), Lord and offered eternal life other than Jesus.

Thanks

Once again, you've managed to not answer my question. Is salvation act of God or act of humanity? If it's act of God, then our faith and our following will not save us.

 

[sojourner]

Oh my! How come the offered salvation by Christ become a systematic paradigm??

Salvation for me done by Christ is an act of God for us.

John 3:16
16. "For God (act of God) so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Thanks

It's systemic because the bible was written from a communal -- not an individualistic -- perspective.

 

[sojourner]

Christ conquered the world

Wait a minute... I thought Christ loved the world. You don't conquer something you love. You enter into equitable relationship with it.

 

[sojourner]

I don't consider "believing the Bible" to be a requirement of anything spiritual. I don't even believe it is a requirement of being a Christian! I believe that's a requirement of your particular flavor of Christian fundamentalist cult you are attracted to. It's not a legitimate requirement for anyone else however.


These sound like all the right words, but when I lift the bun, I see no meat patty inside. It's just dry white bread that looks like a hamburger from the description on the menu, but what you serve your customers is missing the actual meat however. Substanceless words on a page is all. The description is correct, the product is wrong. Where's the beef, Dave?

I was just going to comment the same thing. These are just formulaic words parroted without depth of understanding. A picture of a hamburger that's really ground dog meat.

 

[Windwalker]

I was just going to comment the same thing. These are just formulaic words parroted without depth of understanding. A picture of a hamburger that's really ground dog meat.

I just had that mental image this morning. I could come up with lots of other metaphors, like a plastic burger that looks like a burger, but is completely hollow inside. I do like the dog meat analogy though, as when you try to eat what is offered instead of beef, though it looks like a burger, makes you sick instead. Words like "the heart", are bastardized to mean submission to religious authority. Love is bastardized to mean strict observance of rules. Freedom is bastardized to mean you won't be annihilated when judgment day comes. Peace is bastardized to mean I don't have to worry about punishment because I follow the rules. Joy is bastardized to mean I'm happy I'm not one of those God is going to send the flames of hell. The Spirit is bastardized to mean the texts of the Bible. And so forth. The words are right, the substance of them are all wrong.

 

[Windwalker]

Christ conquered the world

Wait a minute... I thought Christ loved the world. You don't conquer something you love. You enter into equitable relationship with it.

Yeah, the choice of words speaks volumes. God is a warlord and the good soldiers who obey God will get to run campaigns against the sinners of the world when General Jesus comes and sets up his base of operations on the Mount of Olives. This is a very, very different sort of Christianity than I would recognize as valid to the core teachings of the faith. Warriors for the Conquering Lord, General Jesus.