The Eminence Islam Attaches To Women

[DontFearMe]

This is an interesting conversation indeed. Salam is not trying to hide anything here, this is his sincere understanding of his religion. If you do not agree with his understanding, well who are you to condemn him? As far as this verse:

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

I do want to make some points on this verse. From what I understand the specific ill-conduct mentioned in this verse from what I know refers to a woman who is behaving in a loose manner, and from that I got from Tirmidhi. It is recorded in the traditions that Aisha wife of the Prophet said that he never hit any of his wives, ever. Also, this verse is explained further in the traditions. It does not mean BEAT her like she's a man or something. It actually refers to a light tap as the Prophet stated, below the waist.

We have to be wise in interpreting the Quran because in all honesty there are general verses that are explained further in detail that are recorded in the traditions. So, any average joe can look at this verse and say HEY! But the educated Joe looks at this verse and the traditions refering to it and says...

One must also try to remind themselves of the era that this book was revealed in. Not the 20th century feminist movement era in the United States, but in the 7th century middle east. We cannot look at it and actually expect it to coincide with the norms we have today in western society. However many of its principles are ever-lasting.

Interesting to note that women in the 7th century who embraced Islam viewed it as liberation from the existing cultural practices of their day, and today many see it not as liberation, but oppression.

 

[linwood]

Thats crap...the verse advocates the beating of women.
"Lightly" is a matter of individual interpretation which is what the trouble is with all religious text.

It is a far cry from the OP....

"..we see that Islam gives women great social value, freedom and comfort."

Your interpretation really matters not since I personally consider any edict that gives one gender automatic superiority over another as unethical.

It directly opposes my moral code as do all Abrahamic religions.

 

[DontFearMe]

linwood i am sorry to say, but you are the one who is the uneducated person here on this matter. I know Islam, you are the one who interpreting as to mean beat her, do you know the term in arabic? Anyone of scholarship knows the details of this verse through the study of the traditions, so you are the one who is wrong, one day you should step up to the plate and admit it, im muslim, you are not, I know my religion apparently more than you do. So why dont you try to learn instead of coming at it with the closed mentality you already seem to have?

 

[croak]

"Lightly" is a matter of individual interpretation which is what the trouble is with all religious text.

Let me make it clear then. If you hurt the person, it's obvious it's not being done lightly.
Also, even only being hit lightly will make you feel guilty. So, just a tap is enough.

 

[_salam_]

I think what a lot of non-muslims don't realize is that as muslims we are suppose to follow the example set by Muhammad (pbuh) along with the Qur'an. And as I explained earlier when Muhammad was asked about this verse by one of his followers he said to use an item that wouldn't cause harm to "hit" your wife with. This act isn't to hurt your wife but to show her your extreme dissaproval of her actions. Plus the fact that Muhammad (pbuh) never beat his wife.

 

[linwood]

linwood i am sorry to say, but you are the one who is the uneducated person here on this matter.

Undoubtedly I am and it is the scores of other "uneducated" Muslims that are "misinterpreting" these verses as well.
That uis what makes Islam intolerent.

I know Islam, you are the one who interpreting as to mean beat her, do you know the term in arabic?

No..I do not know Islam which is simply further proof of your Gods intolerence and exclusivity.
The word of God should not ever be available only to one section of society for whatever reason.
I interpret the verse as "to beat her" because the verse says "to beat her".
Simple as that.
Twist away if you like, I`m used to it.

Anyone of scholarship knows the details of this verse through the study of the traditions, so you are the one who is wrong, one day you should step up to the plate and admit it, im muslim, you are not,

I have never had a problem admitting my ignorance so your assumption is wholly unfounded.
You will find testament to this fact in my posts throughout this forum.

The fact remains your God is only available for those who speak one language or those who wish to learn it.
Or this constant reminder I`m given is nothing mroe than the popular apologetics of Islam.
The latter seems more likely.

Does the verse say "to beat her" or does the verse not say "to beat her"?

So why dont you try to learn instead of coming at it with the closed mentality you already seem to have?

I`m not the one with the dogmnatic tunnel vision here.

Teach me, if you think you can.

 

[linwood]

Are women allowed more than one husband according to islam.

NO?

Intolerence, the placing of one gender over another.
The reason does not matter.

Are women allowed all the benefits of beinbg a Muslim men are?

NO?

Intolerence.

You may be the one to learn something here.

 

[Yerda]

If you do not agree with his understanding, well who are you to condemn him?

If this is aimed at me, then I'm lost. I never attacked salam, not once. If you read my posts you may well see that I value his/her opinions and interpretations. And consider him/her one of the more sensible theists on this site.

If it wasn't intended for me, then forgive my ramblings please.

 

[linwood]

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other,

This does not speak of equality.
It`s discrimination.

You may paint it any way you like but it doesn`t change the fact that the Koran sets one sex above the other as superior.

All Abrahamic religions do this , for a woman who wishes to freely subject herself to this type of subservience it is fine.

It will not do for my daughter.

 

[_salam_]

Just a fun little fact: I'm sure we are all aware that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, but I know that the majority of the people coming to Islam are women. Infact I have heard that out of every 10 people that come to Islam 6 of them are women. Now this is interesting, why would more women be coming to Islam rather than men if it treats women so unfairly. The fact of the matter is that all muslims (unless they are extremely ignorant in Islamic teaching) "interperate" the verses that where mentioned in the same way. As I had quoted earlier from Yusuf Ali's comentary on the Qur'an "all authorities are unanimmous in deprecating any sort of cruelty", this is proof that as muslims we all hold the same view on this subject. So if you as an outsider want to take it to mean something different then thats your thing, but we as muslims know what it's really all about.

 

[linwood]

As I had quoted earlier from Yusuf Ali's comentary on the Qur'an "all authorities are unanimmous in deprecating any sort of cruelty",

How does gender "equality" hold up in Islam?

Women are not trifles to be cared for or tossed away.
Women are not possessions worthy of reverence.

Women are people with the same capabilities and intellect of any man.
They should be treated as such.

I fear Islam won`t find many converts in my society.
Women already know they are equal here.
They won`t regress.

 

[_salam_]

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the U.S. as well as the rest of the world, as I have stated before, hate to break it to ya.

 

[linwood]

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the U.S. as well as the rest of the world, as I have stated before, hate to break it to ya.

You`re breaking nothing to me, you should read more carefully.

I fear Islam won`t find many converts in my society.
Women already know they are equal here.
They won`t regress.

The growth of islam in the USA is due to immigrants and their children not converted Americans, let alone converted women.
In fact the ratio of Islamic men to women is already 2-1.
Alot of lonely guys out their huh?
As I said..they will not regress.

I have a thought for you.

History itself shows the detrimental affect this secular society has had on Christianity over a relatively few generations.
History shows the release of old traditions under this governmental rule of tolerence and equality no matter what culture/religion you`re looking at.

I`d wager it has the same affect on Islam, we`ll have to wait a few years to find out but I myself am looking forward to it.

I bet those children of Islamic immigrants already see the world in a totally different light than their parents just by gtrowing up here.
I wonder how their childrens children will see the world?

Freedom is always more powerful than than a paper patriarchy

 

[_salam_]

Will Muslim children growing up in this country be drawn into it's society? Unfortunately I would have to agree and say yes. But I'm not sure the state in which our society is in and is headed is something you would want to pride yourself on, I know I sure as hell don't.

 

[linwood]

But I'm not sure the state in which our society is in and is headed is something you would want to pride yourself on, I know I sure as hell don't.

Compared to those societies that have based themselves on any theocracy this place is paradise.

I`ll take it and be grateful for it any and everyday.

 

[DontFearMe]

Undoubtedly I am and it is the scores of other "uneducated" Muslims that are "misinterpreting" these verses as well.
That uis what makes Islam intolerent.

Could it be perhaps in a million years that you are the one who is misinterpreting these verses?

No..I do not know Islam which is simply further proof of your Gods intolerence and exclusivity.

I would attribute your lack of knowledge to a mind already made up and of course, the lack of study on the matter.

The word of God should not ever be available only to one section of society for whatever reason.
I interpret the verse as "to beat her" because the verse says "to beat her".
Simple as that.
Twist away if you like, I`m used to it.

No need for me to twist, I have already commented on the verse and your eagerness not to accept the explanation says that you are not willing to learn because you think you know it already. And as far as the Quran, as u know the translation is provided in many languages, however in terms of debating text, to know the original language of the book is vital, as with any religious text.

Does the verse say "to beat her" or does the verse not say "to beat her"?

I already explained the issue.

Teach me, if you think you can.

It doesnt seem to me that you want to be taught. Learning stops when you feel that you know it already.

Anyhow, Salam you are right, most converts I know have been women. This is not new, out of the reports I have read it seems to be the same nationwide. For those who do not approve of the Islamic lifestyle, I say to you, DONT LIVE IT. That's simple.

 

[Yerda]

For those who do not approve of the Islamic lifestyle, I say to you, DONT LIVE IT. That's simple.

Crikey! I wish all theistic people could make room in their heads for that idea.

 

[_salam_]

Who could do greater wrong than someone who is reminded of the Signs of his Lord and then turns away from them, forgetting all that he has done before? We have placed covers on their hearts, preventing them from understanding it, and heaviness in their ears. Though you call them to guidance, they will nonetheless never be guided. (Surat al-Kahf: 57)
​

 

[linwood]

Alot of verse quoting going on around here but no questions being answered.
Is that how y`all expect to get converts?

None have answer a single question of mine.

The truth of the matter is that census data puts US Muslims at a 2 to one ratio of men to women.

None will stand against the charge that the Koran itself is discriminatory towards woman.
Not a one will answer my simple questions of whether or not the translation does indeed say what it appears to say.

All I get is...

We have placed covers on their hearts, preventing them from understanding it, and heaviness in their ears. Though you call them to guidance, they will nonetheless never be guided.

You can tell the Christians have been at this alot longer.

 

[_salam_]

We did answer your question you refused to accept it.